Why do you think God allowed Protestantism?

[SteveGC]

it is important because it is key to this debate…i’t has been stated here that christ founded the first church and that statement has been defended biblicaly(sort of)…if it’s not clearly stated then the arguement collapses under the crushing weight of illogic…why does it collapse?..because if the “evidence” extracted from these verses are peoples interpretations, then they are automatically invalid… man cannot decide for everyone else what is valid and what is not…thats where religious persecution starts…and where god ends…fd

I’m afraid you’ll have to get used to the fact that Catholicism does not need to be defended through explicit statements in Scripture. If you demand clear, explicit evidence from the written word for all Catholic claims, and that’s the only thing that will ever sway you, then you will likely remain in protest forever, and perhaps that’s satisfactory to you. Now, if you open your mind up to allow there to also be implicit and contextual evidence of all things Catholic, then you’re on your way toward truth. Because the truth is that Catholicism is synonymous with universal belief, or world wide faith. The term “catholic”, although it actually IS in scripture, does not HAVE to be there. Think of it this way…if someone wrote a biography about your childhood, let’s say entitled “Lil Freddie”, talking all about your early years, and referring to you by only the handful of baby names you went by (i.e. little freddie, junior, etc), would that book have to include within its text the adult name you would later go by, (Frederick) in order for that book to still be talking about you? Not at all. So it is with the Bible, or atleast the entire NT. The Church didn’t need to identify itself by any proper name, because the Church simply WAS. The faith was a catholic faith, and the Catholic term simply was incorporated into it as the Church grew and spread throughout the land, to not only give it a proper name, but to distinguish the apostolic faith from heresy. With that understanding, one can see all things Catholic in the entire Bible, new and old testaments alike.

You also said:

because if the “evidence” extracted from these verses are peoples interpretations, then they are automatically invalid… man cannot decide for everyone else what is valid and what is not…thats where religious persecution starts…and where god ends.

Don’t you see that your entire belief system is also based on extracted interpretations from people, either your own, or more likely from the many people who’ve influenced your faith throughout your life? You’re right though - man cannot decide for everyone else what is valid and what is not…man cannot do this…on his own. That is what makes Catholicism authentic. Man is not doing this alone. The Holy Spirit is unified to the Church. That’s His primary role. To protect from error the deposit of faith given by Christ. Through Apostolic succession, His work to do this continues to this day, and will continue forever. That’s why all Catholics are taught the same exact things, and worship the same way, whether in Jackson, Mississippi or Luanda, Angola. Non-catholics believe that they themselves are unified to the Holy Spirit for this purpose, but this simply isn’t so. He was given to specific individuals (apostles) for that purpose. Not that the Spirit doesn’t dwell within non-Catholics, but He doesn’t dwell there to teach them truths about Christ’s mission of salvation outside of the Church He founded.

 

[jmcrae]

Matariel;5360096:

It’s generally accepted historic fact…

me…

accepted by whom?..the world consists of more than just the rc…if its historic, than it should have corroborating documentation from outside the rc…right?

Actually, everyone other than the Protestants agrees that St. Peter was the first Pope of the Christian church - and even most Protestants agree that St. Peter had “primacy of authority” in the “primitive Church”.

we have the records too, of the early Christians (who were Catholic)

me…

really?..so in a.d. one the rc sprang into being?..as the catholic church?..fully formed and ready to go?..you would have to show me some ACTUAL DOCUMENTATION

Read The Faith of the Early Fathers, which is a compilation of all of the early documentation of the Church, beginning in 50 AD with The Didache.

and their apostolic lines from Peter and others. The Pope is the successor of St. Peter, who received authority to tend the flock of Christ (the Catholic Church)…

me…

really?..so the borgias were st. pete’s successors?..what about the pope who helped the nazi’s escape?..did his authority come from god. too?..if thats the case then it’s no wonder that i’m not a christian

He helped the Jews escape from the Nazis; he didn’t help the Nazis; and yes, his authority over the Church is from God. Just as your mother and father’s authority over their children is also from God.

Not all doctrines are in the Bible, the Bible is only one part of the larger Deposit of Faith

me…

hmmm…are you telling me that rc policy is extra-biblical?..what do you use if not the bible?..thats the only “word of god” that i know of…fd

The Bible came to exist in the form that we know it today, in 405 AD by means of an infallible decree from Pope Innocent I.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

By that logic, only the desperately ill should become doctors, only the insane should become psychiatrists, and only divorced people should do family law.

Priests know about marriage because they know a lot of people who are married (including their own parents), and because they make a study of the subject when they are at school, studying for the priesthood.

I am a married person, but I’m pretty sure that not all marriages are exactly like mine, and I’m very sure that there are people out there experiencing problems that I will never have.

Experience is the best teacher, in marraige. I could tell you about my labor pains but if you experienced them, then you would know what i mean.

 

[jmcrae]

Experience is the best teacher, in marraige. I could tell you about my labor pains but if you experienced them, then you would know what i mean.

Yes, but my experience is not your experience. I can learn lessons for myself from my own experience, but when it comes to giving advice to other people, it’s best to call upon those who have studied the matter, and taken on the experiences of many, many people. This is what priests do when they study for the priesthood - they look at a large number of experiences of other people, and learn from them all, instead of just going by “what worked for me.”

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Priests know about marriage because they know a lot of people who are married (including their own parents), and because they make a study of the subject when they are at school, studying for the priesthood.

And it should be noted that not all priests are qualified marriage counselors. Some are while others are not. It is not the position of the Church that every priest is automatically vested with an ability to give marital counseling upon ordination. Priests are trained to be spiritual advisors, and so their advice regarding marriage is from the sacramental perspective. Sacramentally speaking, there is no person more qualified than a priest to discuss the sacramental aspects of marriage.

jmcrae:

I am a married person, but I’m pretty sure that not all marriages are exactly like mine, and I’m very sure that there are people out there experiencing problems that I will never have.

And I would add that just because a person experiences such problems, that does not make them qualified to counsel another person through a similar experience. I’ve experienced the death of a loved one several times in my life. I am not thereby a qualified grief counselor.

Good points. Thanks for letting me add my 2 cents.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Worthy5]

WHy confess to a priest? God himself will hear you if you confess to him alone. Also, about marriage preparation in the Catholic Church, how can a priest act as a marriage counselor and help to prepare couples if they are not allowed to marry? Where is their experience as a spouse?

Well Derek thanks for at least asking. My understanding of what the Church thinks is this; the priest stands in the place of Christ, Christ as God is an intangible reality but the priest brings a tangible presence to the confession. When one confessess to the priest one can feel humbled by that presence-God presence as display through the presence of the priest. To confess in secret to yourself seems too easy. According to the Church, Christ left a tangible reality of himself on earth-the Church and her sacraments.

As far as priest as marriage counselor, the Church see marriage as a sacramental reality not just an egotistical self indulgent experience. Marriage is about the complete self-donation of one person to another with both giving themselves together to Christ. Now a priest can speak to that because he himself is married-to the Church. He gives his complete life to the Church. He also can speak to the theology of marriage as a sacrament because he has spent many years studying such. You are not suggesting all secular psychologist who are married counselors need to be married are you? Just curious thanks. BTW I am not a Church official but the above is simply my understanding.

 

[SteveGC]

Experience is the best teacher, in marraige. I could tell you about my labor pains but if you experienced them, then you would know what i mean.

Sure, Nancy. There are isolated exceptions wherein certain people who have shared certain experiences can best counsel another on those experiences. I think the point being made is that on the whole, a priest is no less beneficial (and in some ways, is more beneficial) as a counselor to engaged or married couples than is some secular, married psychiatrist. I also think it’s a petty argument (made by another person here) to try to disqualify the need for priests based on an isolated, non-universal, function they perform in the service of the faithful, as marriage preparation and counseling.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Experience is the best teacher, in marraige. I could tell you about my labor pains but if you experienced them, then you would know what i mean.

Does that mean that a male physician cannot be a qualified obstetrician? (or should the position be limited to only women who have experienced labor pains) I would concede that a female obstetrician (provided that she also experienced labor pains) may have a greater ability to empathize but that does not necessarily disqualify males as obstetricians.

Peace,
Robert

 

[1beleevr]

jmmccrae: You are right, well, partially, anyway! It is not an either/or choice, if you are catholic For the rest of us, we have the privilege(thank You, Jesus) to be in the throneroom(Hebrews 4:16) with Our Holy Father(God). So, you see, Jesus never compelled or commande us to confess our sins to a priest:thumbsup: Oh, wait, Jesus is our High Priest, in the order of Melchizadek:thumbsup:

 

[jargon631]

jargon631;5360178:

Actually, everyone other than the Protestants agrees that St. Peter was the first Pope of the Christian church - and even most Protestants agree that St. Peter had “primacy of authority” in the “primitive Church”.

me…

too funny…by other than protestant you are referring to catholics…

Read The Faith of the Early Fathers, which is a compilation of all of the early documentation of the Church, beginning in 50 AD with The Didache.

***me…***sooo…you want me to read something compiled by the rc?..in order to corroborate a claim made by the rc?..isnt that more than a little self serving?

He helped the Jews escape from the Nazis; he didn’t help the Nazis;

***me…***really?..then how did all those nazi’s get help and passports from vatican?..what jews did pius help escape?..why didnt he openly and clearly condemn the nazi’s?..he had a lot of influence…all it would have taken was a papal decree and the catholic poles would have been forced to stop slaughtering the jews…your statement holds no weight

and yes, his authority over the Church is from God. Just as your mother and father’s authority over their children is also from God

***me…***really…his authority is from god?..so i guess god must be o.k with the sexual molestation of children?..after all…john paul never condemned it…if he took his direction from the lord then .the lord himself must have thought it appropriate…so god gave my mother authority over me?..so her insanity, and the violent abuse that she meted out were really from god?..well, i’m glad to know that all my broken bones and shed blood were divinely inspired…all this time i just thought she was nuts

The Bible came to exist in the form that we know it today, in 405 AD by means of an infallible decree from Pope Innocent I

me…infalible?..the pope is just some guy…hardly infallible…fd

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, worthy5: Maybe you need to go into your “favorites” folder, and pull up a different reply to posts; this one has been overused! No, I haven’t read the original Greek or Jewish versions, but maybe some day Hey, when you get a minute, read 2Samuel14:14, and tell me what it means to you! God bless you, my brother in Christ!

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

And it should be noted that not all priests are qualified marriage counselors. Some are while others are not. It is not the position of the Church that every priest is automatically vested with an ability to give marital counseling upon ordination. Priests are trained to be spiritual advisors, and so their advice regarding marriage is from the sacramental perspective. Sacramentally speaking, there is no person more qualified than a priest to discuss the sacramental aspects of marriage.

And I would add that just because a person experiences such problems, that does not make them qualified to counsel another person through a similar experience. I’ve experienced the death of a loved one several times in my life. I am not thereby a qualified grief counselor.

Good points. Thanks for letting me add my 2 cents.

Peace,
Robert

Robert, do you play the pipes? i know someone who plays and he and his daughter have been on tv and he played before the Queen of england. I love bag pipes. I have alot of music with scottish and Irish pipes. Nancy

 

[SteveGC]

jmcrae;5360246:

jargon631;5360178:

Actually, everyone other than the Protestants agrees that St. Peter was the first Pope of the Christian church - and even most Protestants agree that St. Peter had “primacy of authority” in the “primitive Church”.

me…

too funny…by other than protestant you are referring to catholics…

Read The Faith of the Early Fathers, which is a compilation of all of the early documentation of the Church, beginning in 50 AD with The Didache.

***me…***sooo…you want me to read something compiled by the rc?..in order to corroborate a claim made by the rc?..isnt that more than a little self serving?

He helped the Jews escape from the Nazis; he didn’t help the Nazis;

***me…***really?..then how did all those nazi’s get help and passports from vatican?..what jews did pius help escape?..why didnt he openly and clearly condemn the nazi’s?..he had a lot of influence…all it would have taken was a papal decree and the catholic poles would have been forced to stop slaughtering the jews…your statement holds no weight

and yes, his authority over the Church is from God. Just as your mother and father’s authority over their children is also from God

***me…***really…his authority is from god?..so i guess god must be o.k with the sexual molestation of children?..after all…john paul never condemned it…if he took his direction from the lord then .the lord himself must have thought it appropriate…so god gave my mother authority over me?..so her insanity, and the violent abuse that she meted out were really from god?..well, i’m glad to know that all my broken bones and shed blood were divinely inspired…all this time i just thought she was nuts

The Bible came to exist in the form that we know it today, in 405 AD by means of an infallible decree from Pope Innocent I

me…infalible?..the pope is just some guy…hardly infallible…fd

Jargon,

You are Saul on the road to Damascus. You have been sold a bill of goods about the Catholic faith. I would recommend you take advantage of your time on these forums to actually learn about the faith as opposed to persecuting it.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae;5360246:

jargon631;5360178:

Actually, everyone other than the Protestants agrees that St. Peter was the first Pope of the Christian church - and even most Protestants agree that St. Peter had “primacy of authority” in the “primitive Church”.

me…

too funny…by other than protestant you are referring to catholics…

Actually, no - I first learned this historical fact from a Hindu, and the text book she was reading it from was written by an atheist. So, in addition to Catholics, also atheists and Hindus believe this, at least. I also learned it again when I went to college, and the teacher was a practicing Buddhist.

Read The Faith of the Early Fathers, which is a compilation of all of the early documentation of the Church, beginning in 50 AD with The Didache

.

***me…***sooo…you want me to read something compiled by the rc?..in order to corroborate a claim made by the rc?..isnt that more than a little self serving?

Well, hey, at least now you are admitting that there were Catholics around in 50 AD - that’s a start!!

He helped the Jews escape from the Nazis; he didn’t help the Nazis;

me…

really?..then how did all those nazi’s get help and passports from vatican?

They didn’t.

what jews did pius help escape?

To name just a very few of the 860,000 Jews who were helped to escape from Nazi Europe because of the Pope’s intervention, there were Chief Rabbi Alexander Saffran of Bucharest, Jan Hermann and Dr. Max Pereles, and Jeno Levai. You can read their testimomials and “Thank You” letters here.

…why didnt he openly and clearly condemn the nazi’s?..he had a lot of influence…all it would have taken was a papal decree and the catholic poles would have been forced to stop slaughtering the jews…your statement holds no weight

The Catholic Poles were being rounded up right along with the Jews for not participating in this, or have you not heard of Saint Maximilian Kolbe?

and yes, his authority over the Church is from God. Just as your mother and father’s authority over their children is also from God

me…

really…his authority is from god?..so i guess god must be o.k with the sexual molestation of children?..after all…john paul never condemned it

Yes, he did. It seems to me that you just make stuff up as you go along, without doing any research at all, because all it took for me was a simple Google search to find a few names of Jews that had been rescued from the Nazis by Pope Pius XII, and another quick Google search will bring up Pope John Paul II’s condemnation of child molesters both in and outside of the Church.

…if he took his direction from the lord then .the lord himself must have thought it appropriate…so god gave my mother authority over me?

Yes, He did. If she did not fulfill her divine mandate in an appropriate manner, that is her sin; not God’s. But yes, God put you into her womb and gave her the job of taking care of you.

The Bible came to exist in the form that we know it today, in 405 AD by means of an infallible decree from Pope Innocent I

me

…infalible?..the pope is just some guy…hardly infallible…fd

If so, then the Bible is just his own personal opinion, and can’t be considered the Word of God, can it?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Does that mean that a male physician cannot be a qualified obstetrician? (or should the position be limited to only women who have experienced labor pains) I would concede that a female obstetrician (provided that she also experienced labor pains) may have a greater ability to empathize but that does not necessarily disqualify males as obstetricians.

Peace,
Robert

Good point but not what was intended.

 

[distracted]

Well Derek thanks for at least asking. My understanding of what the Church thinks is this; the priest stands in the place of Christ, Christ as God is an intangible reality but the priest brings a tangible presence to the confession. When one confessess to the priest one can feel humbled by that presence-God presence as display through the presence of the priest. To confess in secret to yourself seems too easy. According to the Church, Christ left a tangible reality of himself on earth-the Church and her sacraments.

.

yes but what about this:

i don’t always feel very comfortable or “myself” when in confession, particularly w/ certain priests… i often feel best just confessing my sins to God… (I’m a cradle Catholic, orthodox/catechized)

have you ever been to confession & felt that the priest didn’t “get it”??? didn’t understand you one bit?? Of course, i’m strange so no one understands me… but in any case…

I know that you don’t have to totally understood to be absolved (Thank God ) but it does get kind of … well, tiresome never being at least somewhat understood…

but then, maybe i am blind to something… maybe the priest understands me well enough & that just has to be good enough…which it kind of is 'cause i like frequent confession…

anyway, I always was one to see the cup half emtpy…

there was one or 2 priests in my life who i felt understood and (and/OR) really listened… but they are far, far away @ this point…

is being “understood” totally unnecessary, in your opinion?? should one look for a priest one has a rapport with??

 

[jmcrae]

yes but what about this:

i don’t always feel very comfortable or “myself” when in confession, particularly w/ certain priests… i often feel best just confessing my sins to God… (I’m a cradle Catholic, orthodox/catechized)

have you ever been to confession & felt that the priest didn’t “get it”??? didn’t understand you one bit?? Of course, i’m strange so no one understands me… but in any case…

I always look at these situations as learning opportunities. I ask myself, “How am I presenting myself, that he got that out of what I said to him?” Sometimes, reflecting on that question teaches me more about myself than the actual Confession itself.

is being “understood” totally unnecessary, in your opinion??

I don’t think being “understood” is the primary thing, unless we’re talking about a language issue where the priest literally misunderstood what you told him.

But if he just doesn’t “get” your life circumstances, and is telling you things that make absolutely no sense for you, I would simply take it under advisement and not worry about it.

For example I had a Confessor who recommended that I not look at pictures of naked men. I’ve never done such a thing in my whole life, and I’m not sure what I said to him that made him think I was doing that, but I just said to him, “Thank you Father, I am actually planning not to look at any pictures of naked men,” and he seemed to feel that we had made some kind of progress, so I just left it at that. I was thinking that maybe God was giving me a warning through him, that maybe there was going to be a temptation to do something like that in the near future, and that God was giving me the grace to avoid it by means of this priest. I don’t remember encountering anything, but then again, maybe God had already prevented it by means of this priest.

should one look for a priest one has a rapport with??

What I think is that while it’s really nice to have a priest that one has a rapport with, and if you know of one, you should certainly go to him, I wouldn’t avoid going to Confession if I couldn’t find one.

 

[jargon631]

jargon631;5360387:

jmcrae;5360246:

Jargon,

You are Saul on the road to Damascus.

me…

actually, no…im frederick from illinois…

You have been sold a bill of goods about the Catholic faith…

me……what bill of goods?..that attributes to me a suggestibility that doesnt exist…everything i have said can be easily corroborrated…

I would recommend you take advantage of your time on these forums to actually learn about the faith as opposed to persecuting it

***me…***hmmm…persecute…interesting choice of words…i hardly think that pointing to things which are a matter of public record qualify…arent we on a forum where debate is encouraged?..frederick

 

[jargon631]

jargon631;5360387:

jmcrae;5360246:

Actually, no - I first learned this historical fact from a Hindu, and the text book she was reading it from was written by an atheist.

me…

thats pretty funny…a textbook is a compilation of data and as such it requires no beleif in what you are compiling…ANYONE can “write” a textbook…

So, in addition to Catholics, also atheists and Hindus believe this,

***me…***sigh…the linear succession of popes has nothing to do with their "infallability…(reread the posts please)…i can trace my lineage back a loooong way, but that fact doesnt mean that god gave my ancestors any special promotion…and there is NO PROOF that he gave it to the pope either

I also learned it again when I went to college, and the teacher was a practicing Buddhist.

Well, hey, at least now you are admitting that there were Catholics around in 50 AD - that’s a start!!

***me…***actually…youre quite mistaken…i asked if you wanted me to read info compiled by the rc, in order to corroborate claims made by the rc…how in the world is that saying the rc was around at ANY date…i’m sure that the misrepresentation of what i said is accisental……fd

They didn’t.

To name just a very few of the 860,000 Jews who were helped to escape from Nazi Europe because of the Pope’s intervention, there were Chief Rabbi Alexander Saffran of Bucharest, Jan Hermann and Dr. Max Pereles, and Jeno Levai. You can read their testimomials and “Thank You” letters here.

The Catholic Poles were being rounded up right along with the Jews for not participating in this, or have you not heard of Saint Maximilian Kolbe?

Yes, he did. It seems to me that you just make stuff up as you go along, without doing any research at all, because all it took for me was a simple Google search to find a few names of Jews that had been rescued from the Nazis by Pope Pius XII, and another quick Google search will bring up Pope John Paul II’s condemnation of child molesters both in and outside of the Church.

Yes, He did. If she did not fulfill her divine mandate in an appropriate manner, that is her sin; not God’s. But yes, God put you into her womb and gave her the job of taking care of you.

If so, then the Bible is just his own personal opinion, and can’t be considered the Word of God, can it?

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, Nancy: When you were washing feet and other acts of humility, in nursing homes, was it part of your job, or were you volunteering your time? And if you were a volunteer, are you still involved in service to your King, in the same type of activities?