Why do you think scripture uses 'snake' or 'serpant' to symbolised satan?

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Impertinens said:
I do not see what the link that you gave has to do with the issue at hand.

No, Catholicism is not pagan, and neither is Hebraism. But the sacred scriptures do mention and criticize the pagan religions which were known to the Hebrews at the time of the writing, and it is undeniable that the culture and mindset transpiring from the Bible owes much to influences from the pagan populations the Hebrews had contact with: for a rather uncontroversial example, consider the imagery used for describing the Cherubim in the Book of Ezekiel.
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Yes because when Moses wrote about Noah and the flood he was obviously taking from the Gilgamesh myth and twisting it in a Hebrew light… Yeah… NOT because it was an actual event in history and the Almighty gave Moses the correct version of the story and the pagan version was embellished and incorrect. Pagans have typically had some element of the truth but not the complete truth. Which one you believe sheds light on your so called faith. Theory of man or word of the Almighty.
 
edwest2 said:
Interesting thought. So tell me, what other parts of the Bible are not historical?

Peace,
Ed
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The truth is, much of the stories of Genesis,including the story of the fall is mythical. A myth is designed to convey truths about God’s realm and the relationships between God and man.

The bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit is inerrent but the actual stories may well have not occurred in a literal, historic sense.

We may look to other cultures and find that the use of the serpent to portray the underworld or a trickster was quite common before the writing of Genesis. The Mesopatamians, Egyptians, Assyrians and others used this image and the writers of Genesis and the people for whom the story was written would have been quite familiar with the meaning.

Let’s not forget that much of this text was written and told during or just after the Babylonian Exile. That is why there would have been a good deal of familiarity with these images.
 
grannymh said:
What did Satan do?
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That is a great question! I kind of like Samuel Clemens’ proposition:

I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. We have none but evidence for the prosecution and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French. Without this precedent Dreyfus could not have been condemned. As soon as I can get at the facts I will undertake his rehabilitation myself if I can find an unpolitic publisher. It is a thing we ought to be willing to do for anyone who is under a cloud. We may not pay him reverance, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents. A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race, and political head of the whole of it, must be granted the possession of executive abilites of the loftiest order. In his large presence the other popes and politicians shrink to midgets for the microscope. I would like to see him. I would rather see him and shake him by the tail than any member of the European concert.
Mark Twain - “Concerning the Jews”

Happy Thanksgiving…
 
patg said:
That is a great question! I kind of like Samuel Clemens’ proposition:

I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. We have none but evidence for the prosecution and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French. Without this precedent Dreyfus could not have been condemned. As soon as I can get at the facts I will undertake his rehabilitation myself if I can find an unpolitic publisher. It is a thing we ought to be willing to do for anyone who is under a cloud. We may not pay him reverance, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect his talents. A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race, and political head of the whole of it, must be granted the possession of executive abilites of the loftiest order. In his large presence the other popes and politicians shrink to midgets for the microscope. I would like to see him. I would rather see him and shake him by the tail than any member of the European concert.
Mark Twain - “Concerning the Jews”

Happy Thanksgiving…
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Mr. Clemens loved to write things that shocked and amused. It hardly means he was right in his conclusions. For example, the claim that we have never heard Satan’s side is just plain wrong and Clemens himself gives us the evidence by citing Satan’s control over so many powerful people. These powerful people, like Hitler (who Clemens of course never knew, but who certainly falls under the category of being ruled by Satan) show very well why Satan was condemned and the horrors he perpetrates against the human race through manipulating our own against us. Very subtle and nasty, indeed.
 
patg said:
I agree - nowhere in the story is the snake referred to as satan.
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true, but in another ‘story’ we know that the serpent is Satan.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 
Della said:
Mr. Clemens loved to write things that shocked and amused.
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Yes, that’s why I thought it was interesting and possibly a little light-hearted change of pace. Also, I find that humor in these forums in sadly lacking (and I accept that some don’t agree).
It hardly means he was right in his conclusions.
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Of course. But he seldom wrote without making a real point.
For example, the claim that we have never heard Satan’s side is just plain wrong and Clemens himself gives us the evidence by citing Satan’s control over so many powerful people.
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Just to continue this humorous take on things - No, you are missing the point - Clemens gives no evidence at all as to what satan originally did. You are merely providing the usual inuendo and unproven allegations that Clemens was questioning.
These powerful people, like Hitler (who Clemens of course never knew, but who certainly falls under the category of being ruled by Satan)
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Once again, unsubstantiated allegations.
show very well why Satan was condemned and the horrors he perpetrates against the human race through manipulating our own against us. Very subtle and nasty, indeed.
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You can’t use unproven allegations of something done long after a crime to say anything at all about the original crime. Does getting a parking ticket when you are 60 validate that you should have had to stay after school for some unknown misbehavior when you where 10? I don’t think so. And do we really need a scapegoat on which to blame all of our failings?
 
My 2 cents:

This is only my take on the Bible or Scripture…Somewhere in the NT Paul (I believe it was him) states that “now we see as in a mirror…” As I study the Bible I see that everything in there reflects the spiritual world. I don’t see it as symbolic so much but as a written account of the manifestation of spiritual forces at war. What we don’t see is far more real than what we actually do see though.

So, even if it doesn’t actually say that Satan possessed the snake or serpent, we can deifnitely deduce that he at least influenced him to tempt Eve because we know according to other scripture that Satan is the ruler of this world and that God threw him out of heaven and he fell to the earth.

Back to scripture being historical or symbolic or whatever. I believe that all scripture is the written Word of God and we see that most of it is history. Those things that actually took place in history were recorded by the grace of God for us to learn from. As we read the scripture though it is different than any other books because it is actually alive and by the revelation of the Holy Spirit we can see new insights each and every time we read it. As I said before, it is a written account of the manifestation of spiritual forces at war. We need to look at this world in a different way … not only through our physical eyes but our spiritual eyes as well and God will reveal His Word to us.

By looking in this way, as we go about our daily lives, we will be able to fight the good fight and be MORE than a conqueror in Christ Jesus.
 
KShaft said:
Yes because when Moses wrote about Noah and the flood he was obviously taking from the Gilgamesh myth and twisting it in a Hebrew light… Yeah… NOT because it was an actual event in history and the Almighty gave Moses the correct version of the story and the pagan version was embellished and incorrect. Pagans have typically had some element of the truth but not the complete truth. Which one you believe sheds light on your so called faith. Theory of man or word of the Almighty.
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Ummm – how come there are actual explorers (not all of them Christian or Jewish) looking for the Ark…:confused:
 
patg said:
Yes, that’s why I thought it was interesting and possibly a little light-hearted change of pace. Also, I find that humor in these forums in sadly lacking (and I accept that some don’t agree).

Of course. But he seldom wrote without making a real point.

Just to continue this humorous take on things - No, you are missing the point - Clemens gives no evidence at all as to what satan originally did. You are merely providing the usual inuendo and unproven allegations that Clemens was questioning.

Once again, unsubstantiated allegations.

You can’t use unproven allegations of something done long after a crime to say anything at all about the original crime. Does getting a parking ticket when you are 60 validate that you should have had to stay after school for some unknown misbehavior when you where 10? I don’t think so. And do we really need a scapegoat on which to blame all of our failings?
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Please tell me you’re kidding.
 
cargau said:
The truth is, much of the stories of Genesis,including the story of the fall is mythical. A myth is designed to convey truths about God’s realm and the relationships between God and man.

The bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit is inerrent but the actual stories may well have not occurred in a literal, historic sense.

We may look to other cultures and find that the use of the serpent to portray the underworld or a trickster was quite common before the writing of Genesis. The Mesopatamians, Egyptians, Assyrians and others used this image and the writers of Genesis and the people for whom the story was written would have been quite familiar with the meaning.

Let’s not forget that much of this text was written and told during or just after the Babylonian Exile. That is why there would have been a good deal of familiarity with these images.
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Maybe they were all referring to the same event. But, the Lord actually revealed the Truth to His people who in turn wrote it down and eventually compiled it all and we call it Sacred Scripture or the Word of God.
 
century153 said:
Maybe they were all referring to the same event. But, the Lord actually revealed the Truth to His people who in turn wrote it down and eventually compiled it all and we call it Sacred Scripture or the Word of God.
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Who exactly are “His” people. Can we be sure that God only loved the Israelites or might God have established covenant with other cultures. Of course the geeneological lines led from David to Jesus (Really Abraham to Jesus),but didn’t Jesus come for the salvation of the whole world and not just a few ? So, maybe other cultures were given some grains of the truth. Maybe others were guided by the Holy Spirit.

You are quite right to say that the Lord revealed truth to the to His people who in turn wrote it down…But must we assume that the text is historically factual or can we say that the truth that has been handed down is what is needed for the salvation of our souls?
 
century153 said:
.

So, even if it doesn’t actually say that Satan possessed the snake or serpent, we can deifnitely deduce that he at least influenced him to tempt Eve
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Satan is the serpent

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out,
that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon,
that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,
 
edwest2 said:
Interesting thought. So tell me, what other parts of the Bible are not historical?

Peace,
Ed
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Quite a bit of the bible is not historical. The epistles aren’t. The Apocolype, Job, Psalms, Song of Songs, Proverbs, the Gospel parables. Another question might be what parts of the biblical books ARE historical.

It is a constant struggle to determine which parts are and which parts are not.
 
cargau said:
Who exactly are “His” people. Can we be sure that God only loved the Israelites or might God have established covenant with other cultures. Of course the geeneological lines led from David to Jesus (Really Abraham to Jesus),but didn’t Jesus come for the salvation of the whole world and not just a few ? So, maybe other cultures were given some grains of the truth. Maybe others were guided by the Holy Spirit.

You are quite right to say that the Lord revealed truth to the to His people who in turn wrote it down…But must we assume that the text is historically factual or can we say that the truth that has been handed down is what is needed for the salvation of our souls?
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First point - Even Jesus said “salvation is from the Jews”. So, I think its safe to say, the Jews are His people. We, as Gentiles, (per Paul) have been grafted in as adopted sons because of their falling away. When the full number of Gentiles is converted (as God has ordained) then the Jews will return and accept Him as Messiah.

Second point - We don’t have to assume anything. All that is needed for salvation is faith – in Jesus and the One Who sent Him. (according to my Bible)

I’m sure this is going to be up for discussion as well. But, I’m only quoting the Bible.
 
John7 said:
Satan is the serpent

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out,
that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world:
he was cast out into the earth,
and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon,
that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years,
Click to expand...
Fabulous!! Forgot about that one.
 
Because the New York Yankees were not in existence until the late19 century.
 
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