Why do you want Catholic Communion??????!!??!?!

[Peter_J]

Side question for perspective: is it common for Lutheran weddings (I mean where both spouse are Lutheran, not mixed marriages) to be in the context of the mass (or liturgy for those Lutherans who dislike the word “mass”)?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

My opinion:

The Sacrament of the Eucharist is a the means of God’s gift of unmerited salvation to us - so any attempt to withhold God form His adopted children need to be more important than salvation.

The line of reasoning that “you must be one of us” to receive Jesus has always struck me as being more political than Gospel.

The reasoning that “we don’t want you to eat an drink judgment upon yourself” seems to me to be the correct and loving pastoral duty of the church.

This is the way to approach it. And this is the way most fail to see it. It shows a lack of respect for Christ to approach it any other way.

Unity stands in respecting one another’s beliefs, not in forcing all into complete disregard of History and Truth.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I guess I would ask the same question as to why some Catholics want to receive Communion in an Orthodox church.

Indeed…

 

[Peter_J]

I missed your post

But yeah, I think for Catholics to understand this question, they should ask those of their own who seem intent that the Orthodox allow them to receive. You are right, they probably have the same roots.

Yes, that’s a good idea.

And conversely for Lutherans in the ELCA (though I’m not sure what the details would be).

 

[Christ_is_Risen]

**Methodists seem to have a range of beliefs regarding the sacrament. ** Being one does not necessarily mean he doesn’t believe in the real presence. Not believing Transubstantiation does not necessarily mean not believing the real presence. So, I’m not sure the John reference applies here.

Jon

This guy isn’t very religious, nor has attended his own church since adulthood. He is a cool guy, but very opinionated about everything. His overall intellectual abilities allows him to know a little about most things and still navigate his way through conversations and “win” arguments.

I suppose you could say his main interest in the subject is academic, not spiritual. I didn’t mean the post as a summary statement about Methodism, only to point out his religious background.

 

[benjohnson]

Side question for perspective: is it common for Lutheran weddings (I mean where both spouse are Lutheran, not mixed marriages) to be in the context of the mass (or liturgy for those Lutherans who dislike the word “mass”)?

I didn’t know we Lutheran had a choice really - it was the Divine Service (Mass) for me and my wife. Frankly, in my opinion, without the Mass, I would have just saved some money and gotten married at the courthouse.

 

[MaryT777]

There is a misplaced sense of freedom and rights at work. My protestant buddy’s favorite thing to say is “communion should be for everybody”. But when asked why he would participate in something he does not give his assent to, he has no answer. It should just be “for everybody”. As though a persons freedom to do something trumps the reality that is present.
(BTW…this is the same rationale used for abortion in many cases)

As I stated on another thread but speaks to your point is the LCMS Pastor here said he struggles with this same mentality. I WANT to TAKE Communion how dare you not let me.
We are to RECEIVE Communion. Many non Catholic Churches will allow Catholics to Commune and it’s those members it seems who are upset they can’t Commune in our Churches.

They don’t understand the Catholic understanding of true unity and Holy Communion.
I prefer to believe they don’t understand rather than they don’t care and think so what?
I’ll TAKE Communion anyway. Good grief, I hope not.

 

[JRKH]

A Methodist friend of mine married a Catholic. His objections to being “excluded” went so far as to have his bride acquiesce and not have a Mass at their wedding at all.

I have spoken to him about it. He doesn’t believe in Transubstantiation, nor many other Catholic beliefs. I asked him why he wished to partake of something he didn’t believe in. He said it more a matter of principle, that Jesus would have invited everyone.

I told him he and everyone else IS invited, all he had to do was accept the truth behind what he wished to receive and join the Church. If he refuses to do this, then what more can be said? Jesus knew that his instance about his flesh being real food and his blood real drink would drive people away from him. It did in the Gospel of John, it still does today.

This is an excellent response.

You know, I don’t even think its a world owes me attitude, as much as it is “your belief is as good as mine”, or, “our differences don’t really matter”.

Jon

Jon I think you really hit the core of the matter here. To me, it speaks to something in the protestant mentality. The mentality that allows for so many doctrinal differences to exist within the protestant world and everyone (more or less) “agreeing to disagree”.
Often times this is expressed as “we agree on the essentials” and the rest doesn’t matter - except there really isn’t agreement across the board on what IS essential.

To illustrate how deeply engrained this idea of both “equal and independent” is in the psyche of many protestants, I was just recently involved in a (short) discussion about the authority and relationship between the pastor and the elders of a (protestant) church. One person gave the very fine answer that really the pastor and the elders were equal in both authority and in responsibility to each other.
I responded with the question - to move the conversation forward - What is the authority and responsibility toward each other of the elders of local church “A” and the elders of local church “B”.
The reply was a very loud silence. I waited a week and asked the question again - and the silence was even more deafening. Not one answer…which speaks volumes to me.

Anyway - because of this attitude many protestants feel just fine about “church hopping” and receiving at whatever church they find themselves, so they feel that it should be the same with the Catholic church as well.
When they find that this is not the case, it confuses them on a very fundamental level. Unless it is properly explained why - they can easily become insulted, or think Catholics to be snobbish and exclusive etc. Once explained, many will at least understand the reasoning is sound (even if they might disagree with it).

Peace
James

 

[tskrobacz]

Eucharist, like all of the Sacraments is a celebration in one succinct moment of that which is true everywhere and all the time. Indeed, whether Catholic or Lutheran, Buddhist or Islamic, Jewish or Atheist, we are all inseparably part of the body of Christ. While the institution of the church may have rules about the mass, transubstantiation is the only thing actually happening everywhere and all the time…ALL of creation is forever being transformed into the mystical body of Christ, no exclusions.

 

[MaryT777]

See that is what I find confusing. Why communion with someone that you disagree with? All Eucharist are not the same in the view of a Catholic. I’m sure you know that by now from being here a bit.

’

 

[JonNC]

Side question for perspective: is it common for Lutheran weddings (I mean where both spouse are Lutheran, not mixed marriages) to be in the context of the mass (or liturgy for those Lutherans who dislike the word “mass”)?

Ours was in the context of both word and sacrament. As for whether or not it is common, i suspect it is a mixed bag.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

The “the world owes me something approach” aka modernist approach lol

Spot on , brother!

 

[MaryT777]

John 35-71 speaks to this thought. They believe that everyone should partake in the Eucharist, yet when Christ offered himself as the bread of life, many rejected him. Do they really believe that Christ would want us all to commun together if He did not stop those that left him?

Exactly.

 

[MaryT777]

Not I

Nor I.

 

[JonNC]

=JRKH;10909184]

Jon I think you really hit the core of the matter here. To me, it speaks to something in the protestant mentality. The mentality that allows for so many doctrinal differences to exist within the protestant world and everyone (more or less) “agreeing to disagree”.
Often times this is expressed as “we agree on the essentials” and the rest doesn’t matter - except there really isn’t agreement across the board on what IS essential.

It wasn’t always that way in the LCA (predecessor of the ELCA). I remember as a kid, my pastor dad was pretty verbal about the differences in beliefs regarding the sacrament - “Ist ist ist” meant something to him.
And of course in the LCMS, we get criticism for not being “go along to get along”.

To illustrate how deeply engrained this idea of both “equal and independent” is in the psyche of many protestants, I was just recently involved in a (short) discussion about the authority and relationship between the pastor and the elders of a (protestant) church. One person gave the very fine answer that really the pastor and the elders were equal in both authority and in responsibility to each other.
I responded with the question - to move the conversation forward - What is the authority and responsibility toward each other of the elders of local church “A” and the elders of local church “B”.
The reply was a very loud silence. I waited a week and asked the question again - and the silence was even more deafening. Not one answer…which speaks volumes to me.

Anyway - because of this attitude many protestants feel just fine about “church hopping” and receiving at whatever church they find themselves, so they feel that it should be the same with the Catholic church as well.
When they find that this is not the case, it confuses them on a very fundamental level. Unless it is properly explained why - they can easily become insulted, or think Catholics to be snobbish and exclusive etc. Once explained, many will at least understand the reasoning is sound (even if they might disagree with it).

Peace
James

I’m an elder and I know which guy is ordained, and it ain’t me.
From a Lutheran perspective, I would consider “church-hopping” by a Lutheran to be evidence of a lack of good catechesis. Then again, broad Eucharistic hospitality is probably implicit permission to “church-hop”.

Jon

 

[benjohnson]

T
Anyway - because of this attitude many protestants feel just fine about “church hopping” and receiving at whatever church they find themselves,

If this behaviour was confined to protestants, I would be much happier. But sadly, I find it in some of my Catholic friends who are drawn to the shiny lights and disco sound of the local praise worship church,.

…

Frankly, in this aspect, I think the LCMS has is right: That our pastors protect God’s adopted children from their own eagerness - and yet will at times after consultation permit those that they deem have correct doctrine and contrite hearts to come to the table is both good Church and good Gospel.

We have to also take into consideration that ‘Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”’

…
Side note: in France the idea of the “pain bénit” is still alive an well in the Catholic faith, and our Orthodox friends have been kind to me with the Antidoron.

So there’s room in the middle even in the Catholic and Orthodox faiths that perhaps us legalistic English speakers could take note of.

 

[JonNC]

=benjohnson;10909353]If this behaviour was confined to protestants, I would be much happier. But sadly, I find it in some of my Catholic friends who are drawn to the shiny lights and disco sound of the local praise worship church,.

Indeed.

Frankly, in this aspect, I think the LCMS has is right: That our pastors protect God’s adopted children from their own eagerness - and yet will at times after consultation permit those that they deem have correct doctrine and contrite hearts to come to the table is both good Church and good Gospel.

Agreed. We have this balance in close communion. Well said.

Jon

 

[SaintRita]

Not meaning to pry, of course, but what is your husband official church affiliation? The Catholic Church does sometimes (although fairly rarely) permit intercommunion – for example, a member of the PNCC can receive communion from a Catholic priest.

He was raised in a Congregational church. I guess that would be his “official” denomination? He didn’t attend church much after he was out on his own until he met me.

 

[JRKH]

It wasn’t always that way in the LCA (predecessor of the ELCA). I remember as a kid, my pastor dad was pretty verbal about the differences in beliefs regarding the sacrament - “Ist ist ist” meant something to him.
And of course in the LCMS, we get criticism for not being “go along to get along”.

I’m an elder and I know which guy is ordained, and it ain’t me.
From a Lutheran perspective, I would consider “church-hopping” by a Lutheran to be evidence of a lack of good catechesis. Then again, broad Eucharistic hospitality is probably implicit permission to “church-hop”.

Jon

Amen Jon…

My comments were not so much directed at the Lutheran communion as toward the types of Churches that tend to embrace the “personal relationship” mantra.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

If this behaviour was confined to protestants, I would be much happier. But sadly, I find it in some of my Catholic friends who are drawn to the shiny lights and disco sound of the local praise worship church.

Alas this is quite true. As Jon pointed out, this many times speaks to a problem with Catechesis.

Frankly, in this aspect, I think the LCMS has is right: That our pastors protect God’s adopted children from their own eagerness - and yet will at times after consultation permit those that they deem have correct doctrine and contrite hearts to come to the table is both good Church and good Gospel.

Not sure that I understand this part correctly…Our pastors too try to protect their flocks, God’s adopted children, from their own eagerness…(or folly) - and they too try to work closely and on an individual basis with those who are struggling.
Yet I’m sure that both groups have there share of folks leaving for other groups.

We have to also take into consideration that ‘Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”’

No doubt about it. Yet…we can’t just take this in isolation, but only as part of the entire gospel - entrusted to His earthly kingdom - the Church.
…

Side note: in France the idea of the “pain bénit” is still alive an well in the Catholic faith, and our Orthodox friends have been kind to me with the Antidoron.

So there’s room in the middle even in the Catholic and Orthodox faiths that perhaps us legalistic English speakers could take note of.

I get to plead stupid here since I have no idea what, “pain benit” is…

Peace
James