Why do your suppose that Catholics believe in Purgatory

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Gotcha. My only point in asking is to demonstrate why Catholics believe in Purgatory and not reincarnation and other, similar ideas. It’s a matter of theological and reasonable truth, not a simple mandate that we must believe in one and not others.
Hello Gleekwurp,
It would be a combination of both a preference and a mandate. Most people have a preference for not coming back here without really much thought. The church hierarchy have a preference against reincarnation as a means to maintain control over the flock.
 
Because the RCC tells them to believe in it. It’s part of their sacred tradition. Tradition plays a big role when it comes to what catholics believe.
 
Why my friends, do you suppose that Catholics believe in Purgatory?

GBY

Patrick
Christians of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead and some very early Christian writings besides the New Testament, (e.g., Acts of Paul and Thecla, and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity), refer to Christians praying for the dead. This would only be so if Christians believed in purgatory, even if not by name.
 
I assume due to the prayers for the dead in Judaism, mixed with Christian tradition of the sort (which is shared with Orthodoxy), but also mixed with the somewhat juridical theological understanding of sin and temporal punishment.
Just my assumptions.

🍿🍿🍿
 
I suspect that Roman Catholics believe it because sin is not something that is just judicially cleansed from the person. Yes God forgives us for our sins in the Catholic understanding and accepts us, yet the consequences of that sin we all readily feel in our lives, Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant.Thus we not only need to be Justified to be saved, we must also be sanctified, declared holy and made holy.
 
T H E

S E C O N D

K I N G D O M

From the Mystical Revelations of Maria Valtorta

The Purifying Flames

JESUS :

"I want to explain to you what Purgatory is and in what it consists. And I explain it Myself, with a form that will clash with so many who believe themselves to be trustees of knowledge of the Beyond — and are not.

The souls immersed in those flames suffer only from love.

Not undeserving of possessing the Light, but not yet worthy of entering immediately into that Kingdom of Light, these souls, upon presenting themselves to God, become clothed with the Light. It is a brief, anticipated bliss, which makes them certain of their salvation, and makes known to them what their eternity will be. It makes them experience what they had committed toward their soul; thus defrauding it of years of the blessed possession of God. Immersed thereafter in the Place of Purgation, they are clothed with the expiatory flames.

In this matter, those who talk of ‘Purgatory’ speak rightly. But where they are not right is in wanting to apply various names to those flames.

These flames are a conflagration of Love. They purify by enkindling souls with love. They give Love because, when the soul has reached in them that love which it did not reach on earth, it is liberated and joined to Love in Heaven.

This seems to you a different doctrine than what is known — true? But reflect.

What does God, One and Triune, want for the souls created by Him? The Good.

He Who wants the Good for a creature, what sentiments does He have for that creature? Sentiments of Love.

What are the first and the second commandments, the two most important? Those of which I have said there are no greater, and in which are the keys for reaching Eternal Life? They are a commandment of love: ‘Love God with all your strength, love your neighbor as yourself.’

Through My own mouth and by the prophets and the saints, what have I said to you an infinite number of times? That Charity is the greatest of absolutions. Charity consumes the faults and the weaknesses of man, because he who loves lives in God, and by living in God he sins little; and if he sins he at once repents, and for him who is repentant there is the forgiveness of the Most High.

What is lacking to souls? Love. If they had loved much, they would have committed few and light sins, connected with your weakness and imperfections. But they would never have reached a conscious obstinacy in faults, even venial ones. If they would have striven not to grieve their Love, Love also, seeing their good will, would have absolved them even of the venial transgressions they committed.

How does one repair, even on earth, a fault? By expiating it — even if only with difficulty — through the means with which it was committed. He who has damaged something, by restoring whatever he has taken away with his insolence. He who has calumniated, by retracting the calumny, and so on.

Now: if poor human justice wants this, will not the holy Justice of God want it? And what means will God use to obtain reparation? Himself, that is, Love, and by exacting love.

All pivots on love, Maria, except for the truly ‘dead’: the damned. For these ‘dead,’ even Love is dead. But for the three Kingdoms — that of the heaviest: the Earth; that in which the weight of matter is abolished, but not of the soul burdened by sin: Purgatory; and finally that in which its inhabitants share with their Father the spiritual nature which frees them from every duty — for all three the motor is Love. It is by loving on earth that you work for Heaven. It is by loving in Purgatory that you conquer Heaven which in life you had not known how to merit. It is by loving in Paradise that you enjoy Heaven.

When a soul is in Purgatory it does not do anything but love, reflect, repent in the light of Love which has kindled for it these flames — which already are God, but which hide God from it for its punishment.

Behold the torment. The soul remembers the vision of God it had in its particular judgment. That memory is carried with it and, since to have even but glimpsed God is a joy which surpasses every created thing, the soul thus has anxiety to enjoy again that joy. That memory of God and that ray of light which had clothed it at its appearing before God, thus cause the soul to ‘see’ in their true essence the failures committed against its Good. And this ‘seeing,’ together with the thought that it has voluntarily forbidden itself the possession of Heaven and union with God for ages or centuries, constitute its purgative pain.

It is love, and the certainty of having offended Love, which is the torment of those being purged. The more a soul in life has failed, the more it is as if blinded by spiritual cataracts which make more difficult its knowing and reaching that perfect repentance of love which is the first collaboration with its purgation and its entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Love is weighed down and slowed down the more a soul has oppressed it with guilt. But as the power of Love cleanses it little by little, its resurrection to love is quickened and, in consequence, so is its conquest of Love — which is completed in the moment in which, having finished its expiation and reached the perfection of love, it is admitted into the City of God.

bardstown.com/~brchrys/
 
Hello Gleekwurp,
Code:
    It would be a combination of both a preference and a mandate.  Most people have a preference for not coming back here without really much thought.  The church hierarchy have a preference against reincarnation as a means to maintain control over the flock.
The Church teaches the truth with regard to faith and morals.

The Church hierarchy serves the people, and we all need to pray for each other.

The Precious Blood of Jesus Christ is enough for one life.
 
Gleepwurp: I’m not following how something that cannot be proven to exist is a “reasonable truth” whether it is purgatory, reincarnation, or anything else. A reasonable theory yes but not a truth.
As for why I believe catholics believe in purgatory, it is what the church teaches.
It is reasonable in my view to believe more than one life is required to reach the kingdom of god, bliss, enlightenment or whatever any particular tradition calls it. More than one life is not meant by me to be specifically another physical life. Hope I’m clearing my viewpoint up and not making things muddier. 🙂
 
Gleepwurp: I’m not following how something that cannot be proven to exist is a “reasonable truth” whether it is purgatory, reincarnation, or anything else. A reasonable theory yes but not a truth.
As for why I believe catholics believe in purgatory, it is what the church teaches.
It is reasonable in my view to believe more than one life is required to reach the kingdom of god, bliss, enlightenment or whatever any particular tradition calls it. More than one life is not meant by me to be specifically another physical life. Hope I’m clearing my viewpoint up and not making things muddier. 🙂
Interesting way to express lives. At least for Catholic belief, at least some persons go immediately to heavenly state upon death, so that means one physical life prior to that, and then the resurrected with the body at the General Judgement could be called a new physical life in a sense. Those souls would not experience a so called life in purgatory state.
 
Hello Gleekwurp,
Code:
    It would be a combination of both a preference and a mandate.  Most people have a preference for not coming back here without really much thought.  The church hierarchy have a preference against reincarnation as a means to maintain control over the flock.
I don’t indulge in tinfoil hat conspiracies, sorry. 🙂
 
Gleepwurp: I’m not following how something that cannot be proven to exist is a “reasonable truth” whether it is purgatory, reincarnation, or anything else. A reasonable theory yes but not a truth.
Reason, logic, history, authority and theology all play a part in showing what’s right and what isn’t. The general idea is really that simple, though there’s plenty of writing out there as to how the Church came to this truth.
As for why I believe catholics believe in purgatory, it is what the church teaches.
It is reasonable in my view to believe more than one life is required to reach the kingdom of god, bliss, enlightenment or whatever any particular tradition calls it. More than one life is not meant by me to be specifically another physical life. Hope I’m clearing my viewpoint up and not making things muddier. 🙂
I respect your view. Certainly, I don’t hold anything against you for having it. 🙂 Without the same kind of rigorous thought that vets Purgatory, though, I can’t really buy into the idea of reincarnation. It would be like someone telling me that eggs were, in their view, actually square instead of ovoid, without any reasonable proof or logic to back it up.

And I can’t speak for all Catholics, certainly. Some may believe in Purgatory simply because the Church teaches that Purgatory is real. But those same Catholics have the ability to research -why- the Church teaches this, and many more of us already have, so your statement “I believe Catholics believe in Purgatory because the Church teaches that it’s true” doesn’t really hold up to logical scrutiny.

S’all.
 
Maybe the catholic church realizes that one human lifetime isn’t nearly enough to reach eternal everlasting bliss, enlightenment or the kingdom or god therefore perceives the need for purification after that one life. Others believe in reincarnation or rebirth. Purgatory, reincarnation, rebirth all in my view perform the same purpose. Since Christians aren’t supposed to believe in reincarnation and rebirth, purgatory works.
Thank you my friend!

NOT sure I follow your thinking though. “Reincarnation” is only a MYTH

GBY
 
Because it is referenced in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament.

Because it is tradition handed down to us from the very formation of the Church.

Because our Saints and Mystics have told us of their experiences with the Holy Souls in Purgatory and their need for our prayers.

Because it is a comforting thought that I can be clean before my Lord. That He will not just accept me, muddied and tarnished to spend all eternity before Him in that state, but He will cleanse me, He will make me worthy to be with Him.

…and I’m sure there’s more but the wife is yelling so I got to run!!!
AGREED

But WHY?

GBY!
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1030–1).

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning “until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy” (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.
GREAT POST:thumbsup:

Thanks and GBY
 
The purification of a soul that is not ready to see God face to face yet is called Purgatory. (some faults and small sins that have not been dealt with).

The belief in Reincarnation is entirely different, because it teaches the transmigration of souls into a new body, another lifetime on this planet.
So, two questions:)

WHY does [if it does; Purgatory exist?] It does!

Are you saying that you believe as a Catholic in reincarnation?

GBY
 
Probably because its real. Even protestants believe in a purging, though they don’t call it that.
 
Thing is, many protestants believe in it too, sort of.

Heard one minister say when you get to heaven you are going to be stinking if you were a wordly Christian…obviously referring to 1 Cor 3:15. Another protestant minster talked about how painful the judgement will be and how he’s not looking forward to that day. Hmmmm, sounds awful purgatorish to me 😉
Interestering, THANKS

GBY
 
Not as simple as that, though. Reincarnation / rebirth don’t make sense from a theological point of view. It’s not that we’re just “not supposed” to believe in them, it’s that they make no sense. Purgatory, however, does.
AMEN and THANKS!

GBY
 
In addition to the scriptural justification, purgatory expresses a reasoned common sense.

We are not God.
We are on a journey.
Sanctity is a process of unification with God, a coming to know a person face to face. A relationship. Relationships take time. Perfect relationships…fill in the blank.

If God is radically other, coming to know God cannot be a one-shot deal. If we say him instantly as he is, we would probably vaporize. Purgatory is God mercifully allowing us a time to adjust our eyes to the light in the room.
Interesting; …

So “purgatory” is NOT about some sort of “purging?”

GBY
 
Purgatory, reincarnation, rebirth. None of these in my view is anymore theologically sound than the others. The are beliefs and viewpoints and none of them can be proved or disproved. We either have faith or don’t have it.
My main point is that in many traditions one lifetime is not enough to reach enlightenment, the kingdom of god, etc…
Actually my friend, PURGATORY can be proven as being logical, theological and philosophical … STAY tuned, the discussion is just getting under a]way:)

It can even be shown to be MORALLY a near necessity for our GOD

GBY [the OP]
 
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