Why does Anglican-rite liturgy attract so many Catholics?

[BernadetteM]

I was at Our Lady of Walsingham this afternoon (Houston). Yes, AU has “And with thy spirit.” God willing, I plan to be there later on today for their Solemn Mass. I had accompanied a priest who was attending the same conference as I was and he kindly lent me his guidebook (so to speak). After the AU (we got there late), we went to the small chapel for the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice in the Extraordinary Form.

I must say, there is a lot of kneeling in the AU. We knelt through most, if not all, of the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Yes kneeling is I guess you could say a tradition, aslo genufleting and bowing the head. Also their High Masses are over an hour long, but I never felt bored, but uplifted.

Was an Anglican Use priest celebrating the Extraordinary Form? I know they can celebrate all three liturgies. Hopefully it was a joyous experience. I am looking forward to see what the new liturgy will be, it would be great if it was from the Anglican Missal with the Gregorian Canon they now use.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[Aunt_Raven]

The liturgy is SO beautiful at Houston’s AU parish, The Shrine Church of Our Lady of Walsingham. (It is pilgrimage church) It is no secret that Cardinal DiNardo loves it and considers it a great spiritual and liturgical asset to his Archdiocese. Re the length of the liturgy: The 9:15 am Sunday Mass is a sung “Low” Mass, lasts about an hour (tho’ it seems shorter). There’s long, eager lines for Confession between Masses; parishioners really “get” this sacrament; not only adults, but the teens and young adults too. The later Mass, I forget if it’s 10 or 10:30 is a Solemn High Mass with lots of altar servers and incense; the music is superb, and the whole liturgy is Heaven on Earth–.

I urge every reader who can do so to attend the dedication of new outdoor shrine at the Houston parish tentatively scheduled for 28 May 2011 – it is a half-size replica of the “Lonely Arch” at the original shrine location in Norfolk, England, containing stones from the UK ruin. There will be a procession and outdoor Mass and all sorts of celebration --the parish usually has a May Pole on May Day with all the children from the CHH home-school Cultural outreach program, but perhaps this year they might (If enough people request this through the parish office early enough?) hold (or repeat) it on the day of the Shrine dedication. (We can but ask . . .

This cultural enrichment program for the region’s Catholic Homeschoolers is an astounding work of the Holy Spirit --they have room for a few over 100 pupils of all ages, and a long waiting list. . . It’s called “Children of the Holy House” (HCC, part of the Institutes of Catholic Culture Studies based at OLW parish) This once-a-week program was started over a decade ago was by volunteers who were themselves home-schooling parents-- it acquaints children with the riches of Catholic art, , symbolism, customs, music through the ages, in addition to classes in Latin Greek, etc. The kids love it, and the AU liturgy (to which they often sing a plainchant Mass setting); even though many children are from other parishes. The original graduates of the CHH programme are doing superlatively well at College; most won some kind of scholarship, and many are seriously considering religious vocations or the priesthood.

Sorry to go off on this digression; but the mature AU parishes DO tend to generate many creative & innovative ministries for the New Evangelization. The liturgy fosters the spirituality, which inspires the creativity . . . . OL Atonement, and St Mary the Virgin AU parishes are just as dynamic but in other ways. . .

 

[benedictgal]

Yes kneeling is I guess you could say a tradition, aslo genufleting and bowing the head. Also their High Masses are over an hour long, but I never felt bored, but uplifted.

Was an Anglican Use priest celebrating the Extraordinary Form? I know they can celebrate all three liturgies. Hopefully it was a joyous experience. I am looking forward to see what the new liturgy will be, it would be great if it was from the Anglican Missal with the Gregorian Canon they now use.

God Bless

Bernadette

No, he was a Latin-Rite priest. The experiences both at the EF and the AU were incredible and profound.

As this discussion treats only the AU, I will stick to that portion. The music at the 10:30AM Mass was phenomenal. Virtually everyone sang. The hymns were simple enough for even someone like me, who does not read music, to follow along and sing. The reverence, solemnity, dignity and majesty of the entire liturgy was simply edifying. It was the perfect way to end an incredible weekend of grace.

The night before, one of the parishioners gave Fr., his friend and me a small tour of the church. The building is unlike anything I have ever seen. I will be posting pictures later on during the week.

 

[BernadetteM]

No, he was a Latin-Rite priest. The experiences both at the EF and the AU were incredible and profound.

As this discussion treats only the AU, I will stick to that portion. The music at the 10:30AM Mass was phenomenal. Virtually everyone sang. The hymns were simple enough for even someone like me, who does not read music, to follow along and sing. The reverence, solemnity, dignity and majesty of the entire liturgy was simply edifying. It was the perfect way to end an incredible weekend of grace.

The night before, one of the parishioners gave Fr., his friend and me a small tour of the church. The building is unlike anything I have ever seen. I will be posting pictures later on during the week.

I am glad you had a good experience. I hope in the future when there are more AU parishes that Latin Rite Catholics will attend one of the High Masses to relieve any doubts about the validity of the liturgy. I know that at Our Lady of the Atonement, Fr. Phillips celebrated the TLM every Sunday until the Bishop requested that he stop. He now does the Pauline Mass ( I hope that is the correct name} in Latin on Sunday evenings and also at his school at times. This gives the students a chance to learn the Latin responses and also educates them about all the Latin Rite uses.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[ProVobis]

I am unclear if you meant the AU Mass uses “and also with you” or not. It does not, it uses “and with thy spirit”. I might have read your post incorrectly.

You’re right. But the text I’m looking at (from Our Lady of the Atonement) has the “for you and for all” in the consecration. Also the “one substance” in the Creed. No doubt these will get changed this year along with the other English translations?

I’m also looking at the Wexford Missal of the Anglican Rite (starts with Psalm 43). The language is Cranmer’s, I believe. Although the language itself might be considered beautiful, there seems to be some questionable translations here, if this is supposed to be Anglican counterpart to the EF. But I’m one of those who questions many of the unofficial English translations of the EF in the handmissals as well because they don’t seem to be express the same idea in some of the other languages, like Polish. That’s why I follow only the Latin at Mass.

 

[malphono]

But the text I’m looking at (from Our Lady of the Atonement) has the “for you and for all” in the consecration. Also the “one substance” in the Creed. No doubt these will get changed this year along with the other English translations?

If I remember correctly, (and Bernadette, correct me if I’m wrong), when the BDW was put together, EP I (aka the Roman Canon) was taken straight out of the ICEL version of the Novus Ordo, which would explain the “for all” etc. If that was the case, then the text in the BDW should also change along with the English-language version of the Novus Ordo.

 

[BernadetteM]

If I remember correctly, (and Bernadette, correct me if I’m wrong), when the BDW was put together, EP I (aka the Roman Canon) was taken straight out of the ICEL version of the Novus Ordo, which would explain the “for all” etc. If that was the case, then the text in the BDW should also change along with the English-language version of the Novus Ordo.

Actually the Canon is from the Gregorian Canon/Sarum Use, howvever Rome could have changed “for all”. The Roman Canon Eucharistic I is similar, but they don’t use the words " holy and venerable hands" and only our Pastor includeds all the saints names and he uses only that Prayer, other priests use Eucharistic II, III, IV, which to my ears sounds more like the BCP 1928. They only allowed the Anglican Use what they felt appropriate. Now is another story, I pray as all the Anglicans, or Anglican Use that, of course, most of the beautiful prayers from the Book of Common Prayer will continue to be used and I for one want to follow the Anglican Missal. There are several different missals.

As I recall from my days as an “Anglo Catholic”, following the missal we had the prayers at the foot of the altar and the Last Gospel. The form was very close to the TLM, now it could be much closer. As Catholics we must take what Rome gives and I think that the Anglican Use parishes have done a wonderful job with the few responses from the ICEL or the 1979 BCP that were required by Rome.

The word Substance won’t change, it is actually easier to understand and say than what the new translation uses. I still at times slip up at Mass and say some of the words from the way I learned the Creed. They use “quick and the dead”, not the “living”.

Many Angicans here in the US and Canada are growing impatient and wait everyday for the words that they have established an Ordinariate. I am lucky that I am Catholic, but can also be a member of the Ordinariate. There are few Continuing Anglican parishes in California, and I don’t think that their pastors have really given any positive information to the members about the Ordinariate. Time will tell if individual Anglicans/TEC members finally decide that they are being led by the Holy Spirit into the Church.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[malphono]

Actually the Canon is from the Gregorian Canon/Sarum Use, howvever Rome could have changed “for all”.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I knew there was Novus Ordo ICEL involved, but I must have confused the Institution Narrative with the whole Canon.

Now is another story, I pray as all the Anglicans, or Anglican Use that, of course, most of the beautiful prayers from the Book of Common Prayer will continue to be used and I for one want to follow the Anglican Missal. There are several different missals.

Isn’t the “Anglican Missal” the same as the “English Missal” except that the latter has the Latin text too?

 

[BernadetteM]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I knew there was Novus Ordo ICEL involved, but I must have confused the Institution Narrative with the whole Canon.

Isn’t the “Anglican Missal” the same as the “English Missal” except that the latter has the Latin text too?

I am not that familiar with all the different missals. There is an American, Anglican, Knott, which many seem to like and others. If might be that each of the English speaking countries have their own.

I believe we used the Anglican Missal. Many of the changes in the new translation are very similar to how the Anglican Use say the prayers, i.e. Gloria, Creed, I am not worthy, etc.

It has been a long time since I attended an Anglo Catholic liturgy, but strange how I still know most of the prayers and at times mix up the words. I think the new translation will flow much better than what the OF uses now.

I have noticed that whether one is only for the EF or OF, some are picking apart the new translation and also a few just take one word used in the AU liturgy and find fault.

The reason that the Church is universal is that it can appeal to all people. We have all the Eastern Rites and their liturgy is very different than the Latin Rite. There are already many Latin Rite Catholics who like the AU liturgy.

My parish is traditional and the only one in our diocese, hopefully this doesn’t change, as I know that the Bishop doensn’t like it, but he is all for the Ordinariate. I think that Pope Benedict has let the Bishops know that they have no voice in this, as they have had in the past with the Anglican Use and parishes celebrating the EF.

The Holy Father has shown much courage, whether one likes what he has done in several different areas or not.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[ProVobis]

The word Substance won’t change, it is actually easier to understand and say than what the new translation uses.

“One substance” might have worked 100 years ago, but I’ll have to side with the much better “consubstantial” term in the new English translation. Whether it’s better understood or not is not the issue. Different theology. “Con” does not mean “one.”

con {“with, together”}

• sub {“under, inferior, secondary, less than, in place of, secretly”}
• stantis (past participle of stare {“to stand as, to be”})
• vernacular ending

so “consubstantial with the Father” makes better sense in my opinion than “one in substance with the Father” and certainly “one in being with the Father.”

There is also a problem with not translating “hostia” as “Victim” inter alia.

 

[malphono]

I am not that familiar with all the different missals. There is an American, Anglican, Knott, which many seem to like and others. If might be that each of the English speaking countries have their own.

Unless I’m mistaken, I think the “English Missal” is also known as the “Knott Missal” and I also think it was used in the UK and Canada (at least), as well as the US. My memory is a little fuzzy on this, but I seem to recall an Anglican priest having once showed me two missals (one was the “English (Knott) Missal”) told me that the other was just about the same, except that the “English (Knott) Missal” had the Latin text (and maybe a few other small differences). Now I’m not sure if the other one was the “American” or the “Anglican.” He also mentioned a third which, he said, differed substantially from the other two, but I don’t remember what the differences were.