Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God?

[OneSheep]

Perfect conscience, and full knowledge of the situation are not required conditions to commit a grave sin, even excluding “the lesser of two evils” where the good effect cannot be achieve directly via the bad effect, and the bad effect must be unintended/unavoidable.

The Catechism has given the meaning of “full knowledge”. ** CCC 1859** “Mortal sin requires full knowledge … It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law.”

In my view, to know “opposition to God’s law” is to take ownership of the rule, where the rule one hears from the outside rings true with what one hears from the inside. "Knowledge of sinful character, too, is not simply “this is wrong, so don’t do it.” assertion from a person/institution of authority. When people sin, they do not know what they are doing. When people know the sinful character and its opposition to God’s law, they do not generally sin (blindness somewhat excepted). Even with blindness, dealing with blindness is a learned skill, so not having the skills to deal with blindness is also a matter of ignorance.

This is why I am saying that sin happens, but I have never found an occurrence of “mortal sin” because of the definition. It is a bit silly though, to keep asserting one position or another. The proof is in the discovery process, and that process involves investigating why people sin. The problem with the definition of mortal sin is that it includes any mention of “knowledge”, when it is knowledge itself that eliminates sin. Remember, I am using a very broad, all-inclusive definition of “knowing”.

Take a psychopath who grew up Catholic. Does he know a certain act is Church-defined as a sin? Probably. Does he know the sinful character, the opposition to God’s law? No. the psychopath has a disabled ability to empathize, his conscience is uninformed. The only reason he behaves is so that he does not get caught and has to suffer a penalty. God’s law is built on empathy, on natural caring for oneself and others. It does not take an institution to put it there, and it is not in the individual’s awareness at birth. Again, my observations.

BTW, I admit that last year, when I saw a video court statement from a psychopath, I had an inclination of wanting him to burn forever. It took awhile to understand and forgive him. It was sickening. I sincerely believe that Abba can somehow reach these people, but probably not in this life.

If " knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law" is simply the person superficially knowing “it is wrong because the Church says so”, then we don’t really have a discussion. You would see it one way, and I would see it the other, we agree to disagree. It seems to me though, that the words “full knowledge” and “God’s law” and “knowing the character of the sin” involve much, much more than such superficial knowing. But the topic of this thread is “Does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God” and the aspect of the occurrence of mortal sin is a subcategory.

Adam should be fine for discussion; he knew that what he did was in opposition to God’s law. That he had supernatural grace and use of reason as would a typical baptized eight year today, is enough.

You state the very reason why the investigation on Adam cannot be done. Adam’s “knowing” has already been carefully defined, but full knowing never accompanies sin. I don’t see the applicability of using a character from an allegorical myth who is asserted to be omniscient. Let’s work with people we can relate to, please.

It would be much more fruitful to work with the crowd who hung Jesus, because it behooves everyone to forgive the crowd, just as Jesus did, in a mature way. Do you recognize the differences in maturity of forgiveness? Forgiveness by adult involves much more than saying, “Okay, I’m not going to be mad anymore.” Resentment does not leave so easily for an adult.

The foremost examples in scripture are the fallen angels, Adam and Eve, Judas, St. Peter.

Ez. 18, 24: But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die.
​

Ez. 33, 12: Thou therefore, O son of man, say to the children of thy people: The justice of the just shall not deliver him, in what day soever he shall sin: and the wickedness of the wicked shall not hurt him, in what day soever he shall turn from his wickedness: and the just shall not be able to live in his justice, in what day soever he shall sin.

Mt. 26, 41: Watch ye and pray that ye enter not into temptation.

I Cor. 10, 12: He that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall!

I Cor. 6:9-10 9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

To possess the kingdom, in my understanding, is to live according to the teachings of Jesus, which involves being free of the enslavements of human appetites. We are talking about life in the here and now, not afterlife.

We can settle on Judas, if you like. Okay?
Question 1: Why did Judas hand Jesus over, what was going on in his mind?

Whew! So much for brevity. And I am trying to get more work done today. You bring out the gab in me, Vico! It’s all your fault.

(cont’d)​

 

[OneSheep]

“so much for brevity” cont’d:

Vico:

Luke 22:31-34 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you,4 that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, estrengthen your brothers.” 33 Peter said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.” 34 Jesus said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me.”

Luke 22:47-48 While he was still speaking, there came a crowd, and the man called Judas, one of the twelve, was leading them. He drew near to Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus said to him, “Judas, would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?”

If you like, we can discuss Peter. Question 1: Why did Peter deny Jesus, what was going on in his mind?

[/INDENT]That the faithful may commit deadly sins, is a dogma of faith
.THE COUNCIL OF TRENT - Session VI - 13 January, 1547 (Pope Paul III)

CHAPTER XV - BY EVERY MORTAL SIN GRACE IS LOST, BUT NOT FAITH

Against the subtle wits of some also, who by pleasing speeches and good words seduce the hearts of the innocent,[91] it must be maintained that the grace of justification once received is lost not only by infidelity, whereby also faith itself is lost, but also by every other mortal sin, though in this case faith is not lost; thus defending the teaching of the divine law which excludes from the kingdom of God not only unbelievers, but also the faithful [who are] fornicators, adulterers, effeminate, liars with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, railers, extortioners,[92] and all others who commit deadly sins, from which with the help of divine grace they can refrain, and on account of which they are cut off from the grace of Christ.

Canon 27.
If anyone says that there is no mortal sin except that of unbelief,[129] or that grace once received is not lost through any other sin however grievous and enormous except by that of unbelief, let him be anathema.

As I said before, I am open to the possibility of mortal sin, that is, that a person may K&WRG. What I am saying is that I have yet to discover an example.

Shall we work on Peter? Judas? I still think that discussing the crowd who hung Jesus is most appropriate. We already know that Jesus forgave them, and we already know that they did not know what they were doing, so we only have to figure out what they did not know.

The word anathema, literally “against the theme” should unquestionably guide our discussion. At no point should we diverge from these themes:

1. All sin is contrary to God’s law, against the informed conscience.
2. Everyone is held accountable, responsible for what they do during this life. There are no excuses from accountability.
3. All sin is to be discouraged, and on the positive side, development of relationship with Love and with all our fellow humans is to be nurtured. Forgiveness is of upmost importance. Forgiveness and reconciliation preempt any thought of harm against another person or God.
4. God loves everyone unconditionally. (these themes are obviously not in order of importance)

I will add one more theme, because I want to divulge why I think this topic is of great importance. I am not requesting that you make this your theme, I am only sharing this to be “up front”:

1. The deepest level of forgiveness and reconciliation involves understanding why people sin, and Jesus guides us to this understanding from the cross. Here is the deepest level of understanding and forgiveness I know: It is being able to say, “I could have done that, given that person’s awareness and appetites. That person is an unconditionally loved child of God, just like me, and I see Jesus within him.”

Feel free to bring up some other themes that we should not veer from when we discuss this. Do you agree with the ones I suggested? (except #5)

God Bless you, Vico, thanks for the time and energy you put into your post. You have my respect, for sure!

 

[curtish1947]

“Goodness is that which all things desire.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

If it is our nature to seek goodness and God is the supreme good, then why does anyone knowingly and willing reject God (the supreme good)? Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject that which is ultimately in his or her own best interest?

Hi,
Okay, I’ll think about this. Has anyone you know of ever knowingly and willingly rejected God?
I would say no, but I do that from: Knowing God.
…Me…

Hi again,
Do you believe or know if St. Thomas Aquinas spoke of his own opinion, or was he saying What God Told Him was true, when you quote “Goodness is that which all things desire.”
…Me, again…

 

[Vico]

In my view, to know “opposition to God’s law” is to take ownership of the rule, where the rule one hears from the outside rings true with what one hears from the inside. "Knowledge of sinful character, too, is not simply “this is wrong, so don’t do it.” assertion from a person/institution of authority. When people sin, they do not know what they are doing. When people know the sinful character and its opposition to God’s law, they do not generally sin (blindness somewhat excepted). Even with blindness, dealing with blindness is a learned skill, so not having the skills to deal with blindness is also a matter of ignorance.

This is why I am saying that sin happens, but I have never found an occurrence of “mortal sin” because of the definition. It is a bit silly though, to keep asserting one position or another. The proof is in the discovery process, and that process involves investigating why people sin. The problem with the definition of mortal sin is that it includes any mention of “knowledge”, when it is knowledge itself that eliminates sin. Remember, I am using a very broad, all-inclusive definition of “knowing”.

Take a psychopath who grew up Catholic. Does he know a certain act is Church-defined as a sin? Probably. Does he know the sinful character, the opposition to God’s law? No. the psychopath has a disabled ability to empathize, his conscience is uninformed. The only reason he behaves is so that he does not get caught and has to suffer a penalty. God’s law is built on empathy, on natural caring for oneself and others. It does not take an institution to put it there, and it is not in the individual’s awareness at birth. Again, my observations.

BTW, I admit that last year, when I saw a video court statement from a psychopath, I had an inclination of wanting him to burn forever. It took awhile to understand and forgive him. It was sickening. I sincerely believe that Abba can somehow reach these people, but probably not in this life.

If " knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law" is simply the person superficially knowing “it is wrong because the Church says so”, then we don’t really have a discussion. You would see it one way, and I would see it the other, we agree to disagree. It seems to me though, that the words “full knowledge” and “God’s law” and “knowing the character of the sin” involve much, much more than such superficial knowing. But the topic of this thread is “Does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God” and the aspect of the occurrence of mortal sin is a subcategory.

You state the very reason why the investigation on Adam cannot be done. Adam’s “knowing” has already been carefully defined, but full knowing never accompanies sin. I don’t see the applicability of using a character from an allegorical myth who is asserted to be omniscient. Let’s work with people we can relate to, please.

It would be much more fruitful to work with the crowd who hung Jesus, because it behooves everyone to forgive the crowd, just as Jesus did, in a mature way. Do you recognize the differences in maturity of forgiveness? Forgiveness by adult involves much more than saying, “Okay, I’m not going to be mad anymore.” Resentment does not leave so easily for an adult.

To possess the kingdom, in my understanding, is to live according to the teachings of Jesus, which involves being free of the enslavements of human appetites. We are talking about life in the here and now, not afterlife.

We can settle on Judas, if you like. Okay?
Question 1: Why did Judas hand Jesus over, what was going on in his mind?

Whew! So much for brevity. And I am trying to get more work done today. You bring out the gab in me, Vico! It’s all your fault.

(cont’d)

According to Catholic Church there there are two major categories of mortal sin:

1. The usual classification of grave, “this is wrong, so don’t do it”, with full consent.
2. Intentional ignorance: Vincible, and sometimes Crass

I think the “this is wrong, so don’t do it” is the sticking point.

 

[OneSheep]

According to Catholic Church there there are two major categories of mortal sin:

1. The usual classification of grave, “this is wrong, so don’t do it”, with full consent.
2. Intentional ignorance: Vincible, and sometimes Crass

I think the “this is wrong, so don’t do it” is the sticking point.

Yes, “this is wrong” is the sticking point. Did you read what I said about a superficial understanding of “wrongness” vs a “full knowledge”, one that incorporates the conscience? Did you read what I said about a psychopath’s ability to have such full knowledge?

I think I mentioned to you before, the “ignorance” categorizations do not make sense to me. If you can give a real-life example, or a fictional scenario, we can try to determine such categories.

Shall we address Judas for the K&WRG?

I await your response, thanks ahead of time!

 

[OneSheep]

Hi,
Okay, I’ll think about this. Has anyone you know of ever knowingly and willingly rejected God?
I would say no, but I do that from: Knowing God.
…Me…

No, I cannot think of an example of anyone knowingly and willingly rejecting God, and that is what I am trying to find out here, if anyone can come up with such an example. Still working on it…

There is some self-knowledge involved in the conclusion. Since we are all limited by projection, the question is essentially “Have I ever knowingly and willingly rejected God?” I went through a period of intense self-understanding, and I came to see what Aquinas said below.

Hi again,
Do you believe or know if St. Thomas Aquinas spoke of his own opinion, or was he saying What God Told Him was true, when you quote “Goodness is that which all things desire.”
…Me, again…

St. Augustine said essentially the same thing. When we behave in ways that are sinful, it is still out of “desire for the good” in my view. However, the sin occurs because of ignorance and blindness.

thanks for adding to the thread!

 

[Aloysium]

No, I cannot think of an example of anyone knowingly and willingly rejecting God, and that is what I am trying to find out here, if anyone can come up with such an example. Still working on it . . .

How about your posts?

You know the church’s teaching, for example:

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law.”
1850 Sin is an offense against God: “Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight.” Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become “like gods,” knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus “love of oneself even to contempt of God.” In this proud self-exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.

You, in contrast to this have stated that you consider sin to be a matter of ignorance and the harm as being done to another person. There are other issues as well.

Knowingly, you reject these revelations from God and hence you reject God. You do so willingly in full awareness of the issues. You prefer your cosmology over that given to us by God. There is no ignorance involved since this does not involve knowledge but choice. You are refusing to submit to the teachings of the Church, which is not some cult. You are failing to submit to the truth.

BTW - In no way are you to submit to my “truth”, my way of seeing things.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, Aloysium!

Firstly, I would like to point out to other readers that if they are interested in what the Church teaches that they do not go by what I or any one else here says, but to go straight to the Source. The Vatican has a web site. Do look at it, particularly the Cathechism. Also Fr John Hardon’s The Catechism of the Catholic Church is an excellent resource, which among other areas, covers this topic extremely well from what I recall.

Good advice!

To the poster whom I am quoting, I don’t know what you are talking about most of the time.

That’s unfortunate. If you feel up to it, ask a question. I think Curtish, also, seems to agree with my point.

As to the Trinity, The Father loves the Son, His Word whereby all was created and is maintained. The person of the Son exists in loving obedience to the Father to whom He prays constantly.
I understand that you are confused. Think, “Why would He pray to Himself.” It is the Father’s Will that will be done.

When Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” He was reflecting the will of Abba.

As to condemnation:
Matt 25:31-46 - "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; . . . "The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;. . .“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There is Justice, which is dispensed by Love Himself.

The notes in my Bible concerning this verse say as follows:

“There is no neutral place. The fire means the torment of those who condemned themselves by closing and freezing their hearts so that they became incapable of love. During their lives, they became indifferent to the misfortune of their rejected and hungry brothers and sisters, now the splendor of God, who is love, burns and pains them.”

How does it burn and pain them? It happens through the experience of profound guilt. How does this guilt occur? It occurs through awareness. When we realize we have hurt someone, we experience the burning. I am saying that even the “closing and freezing” occurs without knowingly and willingly rejecting God. It is a matter of lack of awareness. People close and freeze their hearts because of bitterness, which creates a blindness. There may be example of such bitterness here on this thread (not you, of course). If so, they do not realize their own bitterness, and they probably do not know how it reflects on their voice.

When Jesus spoke about “the least of my people”, He was referring to people commonly rejected. However, this rejection is very personal. People of His day rejected the poor and hungry, and some people of today do the same. Some people do not reject the poor and hungry, but reject people of different ideologies, liberal, conservative, environmentalists, gun advocates, etc. etc.

IMO, if Jesus were talking to us today, he would say in addition, “whatever you did to these liberals, conservatives, environmentalists, and gun advocates you did unto me.” How do we treat people, all people? How do we treat those who have different opinions?

When we are unkind to those of differing opinions, do we reject God?
Perhaps, but if so, we do not realize we are doing it. We are not knowingly and willingly rejecting God.

 

[rinnie]

Good Morning, Aloysium!

Good advice!

That’s unfortunate. If you feel up to it, ask a question. I think Curtish, also, seems to agree with my point.

When Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” He was reflecting the will of Abba.

The notes in my Bible concerning this verse say as follows:

“There is no neutral place. The fire means the torment of those who condemned themselves by closing and freezing their hearts so that they became incapable of love. During their lives, they became indifferent to the misfortune of their rejected and hungry brothers and sisters, now the splendor of God, who is love, burns and pains them.”

How does it burn and pain them? It happens through the experience of profound guilt. How does this guilt occur? It occurs through awareness. When we realize we have hurt someone, we experience the burning. I am saying that even the “closing and freezing” occurs without knowingly and willingly rejecting God. It is a matter of lack of awareness. People close and freeze their hearts because of bitterness, which creates a blindness. There may be example of such bitterness here on this thread (not you, of course). If so, they do not realize their own bitterness, and they probably do not know how it reflects on their voice.

When Jesus spoke about “the least of my people”, He was referring to people commonly rejected. However, this rejection is very personal. People of His day rejected the poor and hungry, and some people of today do the same. Some people do not reject the poor and hungry, but reject people of different ideologies, liberal, conservative, environmentalists, gun advocates, etc. etc.

IMO, if Jesus were talking to us today, he would say in addition, “whatever you did to these liberals, conservatives, environmentalists, and gun advocates you did unto me.” How do we treat people, all people? How do we treat those who have different opinions?

When we are unkind to those of differing opinions, do we reject God?
Perhaps, but if so, we do not realize we are doing it. We are not knowingly and willingly rejecting God.

My answer would have to be no. Are we disobeying God? Yes. Are we rejecting a teaching of God? Yep

What you are speaking of here is venial sin and mortal sin.

But read again what you just wrote. People who are in hell are those who condemned themselves by closing and freezing their heart and became uncapable of love.

If evertime we sin we became uncapable of Love we would all go to hell.

The difference is when we sin, and we do, we turn away from the sin and repent.

We do not Freeze and close our hearts. If we did we could never repent.

But again as you wrote we condemn OURSELVES if we Choose to Freeze and Close our hearts. Its called free will. To Freeze and Close our hearts forever, or repent.

 

[OneSheep]

How about your posts?

You know the church’s teaching, for example:

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law.”

Most of that makes sense, actually, except for the part about “wounds” to the nature of man. That would have to be part of a different topic though. I am saying that sin happens when people do not know that what they are doing. Yes, it is an offense against reason, truth and right conscience. If a person does have reason, truth, and right conscience, they do not sin, generally speaking. As I said before, they may not have the skills to deal with triggered blindness.

1850 Sin is an offense against God: “Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight.” Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become “like gods,” knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus “love of oneself even to contempt of God.” In this proud self-exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.

Yes, and when someone does such offense, they do not know what they are doing. As far as the “will to become like gods” part, that would have to be something going on in the individual’s mind. If it happens, then the person would be thinking such with lack of awareness, not a K&WRG.

You, in contrast to this have stated that you consider sin to be a matter of ignorance and the harm as being done to another person. There are other issues as well.

Sin involves lack of awareness, or ignorance, I am not saying that it is the matter, I am saying that in order for people to sin, some lack of awareness is always a factor, in my observation.

Knowingly, you reject these revelations from God and hence you reject God. You do so willingly in full awareness of the issues. You prefer your cosmology over that given to us by God. There is no ignorance involved since this does not involve knowledge but choice. You are refusing to submit to the teachings of the Church, which is not some cult. You are failing to submit to the truth.

Whew, Aloysium! I hear what you are saying. When you read my posts, you feel a bit disappointed, maybe even angry? You want me to understand the CCC in the same way that you do, perhaps. I am trying to make sense of the doctrine, I am not denying the truth behind the doctrine, but I am saying that to me there are some contradictions that need ironing out.

What is it about “my cosmology” that you are specifically saying is not given to us by God? Are you open to the possibility that you do not understand my posts? You said as much in your last post:

Aloysium:

I don’t know what you are talking about most of the time.

Here is my request: Could you try to understand what I am saying before making accusations?

Please forgive me, first, though, if you hold something against me. It is very difficult to understand what a person is saying if one is reading with eyes of resentment.

In the mean time, Aloysium. I am not going to hold this against you. Know that I value your (name removed by moderator)ut. I know that you are well-intended.

Have a great day!

 

[rinnie]

One more thing you continue to say Father forgive them, they know not what they do.

First of all Jesus was expressing his will and it was the forgiveness of all men.

Romans 5:5 The Holy Spirit empowers us to will the good of others regardless of how they hurt us.

But forgiveness is not one way.

Jesus taught us in ll Cor 7:10 God forgives those who repent.

I John l:9 says IF we CONFESS he will forgive.

I see no where in the bible that states that God forgives everyone, regardless is they have a repentant heart or not.

 

[OneSheep]

Hi rinnie, thanks for continuing to be a charitable voice.

My answer would have to be no. Are we disobeying God? Yes. Are we rejecting a teaching of God? Yep.

What you are speaking of here is venial sin and mortal sin.

My apology, I am confused about what you are referring to here.

But read again what you just wrote. People who are in hell are those who condemned themselves by closing and freezing their heart and became uncapable of love.

If evertime we sin we became uncapable of Love we would all go to hell.

The difference is when we sin, and we do, we turn away from the sin and repent.

We do not Freeze and close our hearts. If we did we could never repent.

But again as you wrote we condemn OURSELVES if we Choose to Freeze and Close our hearts. Its called free will. To Freeze and Close our hearts forever, or repent.

I agree. What I am saying is that if we were to freeze and close our hearts, we only do so with lack of awareness. I am saying that no one freezes and closes his heart when they know what they are doing.

We are on the same page on the “choice” aspect, I think. It is not a matter of God rejecting us, for God forgives.

Thanks again!

 

[OneSheep]

One more thing you continue to say Father forgive them, they know not what they do.

First of all Jesus was expressing his will and it was the forgiveness of all men.

Romans 5:5 The Holy Spirit empowers us to will the good of others regardless of how they hurt us.

But forgiveness is not one way.

Jesus taught us in ll Cor 7:10 God forgives those who repent.

I John l:9 says IF we CONFESS he will forgive.

I see no where in the bible that states that God forgives everyone, regardless is they have a repentant heart or not.

In my own relationship with God, I see His Love as unconditional. Since forgiveness is an act of Love, then forgiveness is also unconditional. Repentance would be a condition.

Now, our conscience does indeed “love us conditionally”, very much so. If we behave, our conscience says “good boy”, and when we hurt someone, our conscience beats us up, right?

However, we are not in the Kingdom if we do not repent. If we are enslaved by our appetites, then we will continue to suffer. We will not *fully experience * God’s love and kingdom if we do not repent. So, there is a condition there, but it is an experiential one, in my view. If we do not repent (condition) then we will continue to suffer.

Jesus said “forgive them, for they know not what they do” to an unrepentant crowd.

 

[rinnie]

Hi rinnie, thanks for continuing to be a charitable voice.

My apology, I am confused about what you are referring to here.

I agree. What I am saying is that if we were to freeze and close our hearts, we only do so with lack of awareness. I am saying that no one freezes and closes his heart when they know what they are doing.

We are on the same page on the “choice” aspect, I think. It is not a matter of God rejecting us, for God forgives.

Thanks again!

No sweatheart, If we freeze and close our hearts we CHOOSE to do that. A great example is repenting.

If I say to you I hate you, you are mean and I hope you have a horrible day. That is evil and horrible and If I truly mean it I cannot get into heaven.

God will say to me, you have to repent and be sorry for what you said to her and mean it or you cannot enter heaven.

So I say, then so be it, I am not sorry, I refuse to apologize, I don’t want the help of the Holy Spirit to open my heart and I will not repent and obey you God.

Evil exists my dear, I know you don’t want to believe People choose evil over God even in the end but they do.

Its not a matter of God rejecting us dear, Its US rejecting God. People do. In the way they live, how they treat others. We all sin, and hurt others. But we have to repent and stop.

Okay lets go back to what I said. Now all day it bothers me, that is my conscience the Holy Spirit in me. I KNOW to say to you. I am sorry. While I still may be mad or angry or disagree with you, and may still believe in my heart you are mean, I still cannot hate, be unforgiving, and wish evil on you.

On the other hand I can ignore my conscience, and refuse to apologize and continue to be bitter hate and hold a grudge the rest of my life and through eternity. God gave me free will to be bitter hate, or forgiving and to love. Its up to me.

And that what either gets you into heaven or keeps you out.

 

[Aloysium]

OneSheep, may I suggest you get off your line of thought and immerse yourself in what the Church actually teaches.
In attempting to justify your position on the matter of sin, you are distorting scripture, the Cathechism and dogma.
You are free to believe what you will. However, I’m not sure you can now claim invincible ignorance.

As to some of what I do not understand in your posts is a fixation on forgiveness and excuses basically for sin.

I know very well why abusers do what they do and how they understand their role in abusive situation.
It does not help one to move on by pretending that their abuser did not know what they were doing.
The people whom I am talking about know exactly what they are doing. They continue unless restrained.

What helps to forgive is love.
Compassion reveals who these people are in eternity, how they would be seen by God, and the reality of their actions in the context of the possibility of love.
They are to be pitied, rather than hated.
Sin is sin. In the end it is far, far more damaging to the sinner as illustrated in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

 

[Vico]

Yes, “this is wrong” is the sticking point. Did you read what I said about a superficial understanding of “wrongness” vs a “full knowledge”, one that incorporates the conscience? Did you read what I said about a psychopath’s ability to have such full knowledge?

I think I mentioned to you before, the “ignorance” categorizations do not make sense to me. If you can give a real-life example, or a fictional scenario, we can try to determine such categories.

Shall we address Judas for the K&WRG?

I await your response, thanks ahead of time!

Yes I read it. It won’t work to proceed to conclusions without first having the basics established.

Understanding is not required. Understanding is different than knowledge. In the matter of knowledge of sin, superficial is all that is required. We must give assent to the teaching of the Church on what is sinful. What is needed is to have learned that the Church teaches that it is wrong. We follow lamb-like.

Look at what is taught in the Baltimore Catechism on avoiding the near occassion of sin, which being unwilling to do, makes us unabsolvable:
Q. 771. What do you mean by the near occasions of sin?
A. By the near occasions of sin I mean all the persons, places and things that may easily lead us into sin.

Q. 772. Why are we bound to avoid occasions of sin?
A. We are bound to avoid occasions of sin because Our Lord has said:

“He who loves the danger will perish in it”; and as we are bound to avoid the loss of our souls, so we are bound to avoid the danger of their loss. The occasion is the cause of sin, and you cannot take away the evil without removing its cause.

Q. 773. Is a person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, rightly disposed for confession?
A. A person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, is not rightly disposed for confession, and he will not be absolved if he makes known to the priest the true state of his conscience.

Q. 774. How many kinds of occasions of sin are there?
A. There are four kinds of occasions of sin:

1. 
   *]Near occasions, through which we always fall;
   *]Remote occasions, through which we sometimes fall;
   *]Voluntary occasions or those we can avoid; and
   *]Involuntary occasions or those we cannot avoid. A person who lives in a near and voluntary occasion of sin need not expect forgiveness while he continues in that state.
   
   Q. 775. What persons, places and things are usually occasions of sin?
   A.
   1. 
      *]The persons who are occasions of sin are all those in whose company we sin, whether they be bad of themselves or bad only while in our company, in which case we also become occasions of sin for them;
      *]The places are usually liquor saloons, low theaters, indecent dances, entertainments, amusements, exhibitions, and all immoral resorts of any kind, whether we sin in them or not;
      *]The things are all bad books, indecent pictures, songs, jokes and the like, even when they are tolerated by public opinion and found in public places.
      

 

[OneSheep]

Hi Vico!

Yes I read it. It won’t work to proceed to conclusions without first having the basics established.

Understanding is not required. Understanding is different than knowledge. In the matter of knowledge of sin, superficial is all that is required. We must give assent to the teaching of the Church on what is sinful. What is needed is to have learned that the Church teaches that it is wrong. We follow lamb-like.

Yes, we follow lamb-like. Superficial is all that is required for what?

Like I said, “opposition to God’s law” and “knowing the character of the sin” and “full knowledge” are much different words than “superficial” or “simple knowing”. If you are correct, that “full knowledge” is the same as “superficial knowledge”, then yes, people commit mortal sins quite regularly. They do not know what they are doing, but they sin. In that case, we are done with the discussion. Would you like to work on the exact topic of the thread instead?

Look at what is taught in the Baltimore Catechism on avoiding the near occassion of sin, which being unwilling to do, makes us unabsolvable:
Q. 771. What do you mean by the near occasions of sin?
A. By the near occasions of sin I mean all the persons, places and things that may easily lead us into sin.

Q. 772. Why are we bound to avoid occasions of sin?
A. We are bound to avoid occasions of sin because Our Lord has said:

“He who loves the danger will perish in it”; and as we are bound to avoid the loss of our souls, so we are bound to avoid the danger of their loss. The occasion is the cause of sin, and you cannot take away the evil without removing its cause.

Q. 773. Is a person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, rightly disposed for confession?
A. A person who is determined to avoid the sin, but who is unwilling to give up its near occasion when it is possible to do so, is not rightly disposed for confession, and he will not be absolved if he makes known to the priest the true state of his conscience.
​

Q. 774. How many kinds of occasions of sin are there?
A. There are four kinds of occasions of sin:

1. 
   *]Near occasions, through which we always fall;
   *]Remote occasions, through which we sometimes fall;
   *]Voluntary occasions or those we can avoid; and
   *]Involuntary occasions or those we cannot avoid. A person who lives in a near and voluntary occasion of sin need not expect forgiveness while he continues in that state.

1. 
   

   Q. 775. What persons, places and things are usually occasions of sin?
   A.
   

   1. 
      *]The persons who are occasions of sin are all those in whose company we sin, whether they be bad of themselves or bad only while in our company, in which case we also become occasions of sin for them;
      *]The places are usually liquor saloons, low theaters, indecent dances, entertainments, amusements, exhibitions, and all immoral resorts of any kind, whether we sin in them or not;
      *]The things are all bad books, indecent pictures, songs, jokes and the like, even when they are tolerated by public opinion and found in public places.

1. 1. I see, you are thinking that description of the occasion of sin is pertinent to the thread.
      
      What does description of the occasion of sin have to do with this thread? I’d be happy to talk about it somewhere else, but I thought this thread was “does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God?”
      
      The applicability to the “occasion of sin” would be “why does anyone allow themselves to be led into sin”? We can agree that sin is a rejection of God, yes.
      
      The question of this thread is i.e. whether anyone who allows themselves to be led into sin is knowingly and willingly rejecting God.
      
      So, thanks for your effort, but these basics do not provide much in terms of the “knowing and willing” aspect.
      
      Let me know if you would like to continue with the topic of the thread, otherwise, we can just quit. It would be interesting, but I am starting to think you do not want to delve into the “knowing and willing” going on in the mind of Judas or anyone else. That’s okay.
      
      Have a great day, Vico, and thanks for your responses!

 

[OneSheep]

No sweatheart, If we freeze and close our hearts we CHOOSE to do that. A great example is repenting.

Hi rinnie! Now I’m sweetheart? Cool. My sweetheart and I have been married almost 32 years, and going strong.

So, we can certainly agree that closing our hearts is rejection of God, the question is, why do people do it? Is K&WRG taking place in their mind? If so, do they even know God in the first place? So, we can look at all the possible explanations for people closing their hearts, and investigate them one at a time.

Repenting is a great example of closing our hearts? I think you mean that opening our hearts would be the repentance.

If I say to you I hate you, you are mean and I hope you have a horrible day. That is evil and horrible and If I truly mean it I cannot get into heaven.

God will say to me, you have to repent and be sorry for what you said to her and mean it or you cannot enter heaven.

So I say, then so be it, I am not sorry, I refuse to apologize, I don’t want the help of the Holy Spirit to open my heart and I will not repent and obey you God.

So here the questions are:

1. Why do people hate others?
2. Why would the person not care about going into heaven?
3. Why would the person refuse to apologize?
4. Why does the person refuse to obey God?
5. Why does the person not want the help of the Spirit?

So, when I ask “why” above, I am not looking for answers like “because he is evil” or “because of pride” or something more general like that. In order to determine K&WRG, we need to figure out what was actually going on in his mind. What is going on in his mind?

Evil exists my dear, I know you don’t want to believe People choose evil over God even in the end but they do.

It isn’t a matter, though, about what I want or what I believe. I have made observations of myself and others, and I have never seen an example of someone K&WRG. If you had asked me 35 years ago, I would have had a different response.

St. Thomas Aquinas:
All things, by desiring their own perfection, desire God Himself, inasmuch as the perfections of all things are so many similitudes of the divine being; as appears from what is said above (Question 4, Article 3). And so of those things which desire God, some know Him as He is Himself, and this is proper to the rational creature; others know some participation of His goodness, and this belongs also to sensible knowledge; others have a natural desire without knowledge, as being directed to their ends by a higher intelligence.

Do you see that there is a difference in the amount of “knowing” God? Yet all of us desire God. I agree with St. Thomas A. on this one. I would add that no one really knows God completely, and I think you would agree with that.

Its not a matter of God rejecting us dear, Its US rejecting God. People do. In the way they live, how they treat others. We all sin, and hurt others. But we have to repent and stop.

We are totally in agreement that it is us rejecting God, not the other way around. Yes, we should repent and stop hurting others, but we do not sometimes (often) (very often). The question is, why do we not? In my observations, it is because of blindness and ignorance.

Okay lets go back to what I said. Now all day it bothers me, that is my conscience the Holy Spirit in me. I KNOW to say to you. I am sorry. While I still may be mad or angry or disagree with you, and may still believe in my heart you are mean, I still cannot hate, be unforgiving, and wish evil on you.

What you are describing above, concerning your conscience, is to me an example of repentance without forgiveness at a deeper level, which is fine in that the sin does not continue. I have a gut-level reaction: “I’m not going to hate, because it is wrong.” and this would indeed be the conscience-in-action. This is the activity of a normal, healthy, functioning (informed) conscience. We discipline ourselves not to hate, we say “hate is wrong” and experience the wrath of our conscience when we violate the rule. It works great! That is, if a person has an informed conscience.

At a much deeper level, forgiveness transforms the hate into love. When I forgive, at a deeper level, someone on this thread, for example, for accusing me of being a heretic, I put myself into his shoes and eventually can say, “Yes, of course, if I was seeing OneSheep’s words as at threat to our faith doctrine, then I could very well judge him, accuse him, and treat him meanly. I would not know what I was doing, but I would be blinded by resentment, and I would not even realize it.” I understand where he coming from, and I would do the same in his shoes. With this level of understanding and forgiveness, I am reconciled, within, with the one who resents me. He probably does not feel the same way toward me, but that is beside the point. Forgiveness is for the one who forgives. See, with the deeper level of forgiveness, not only is the sin avoided, but the resentment is transformed into love!

cont’d

 

[OneSheep]

rinnie:

On the other hand I can ignore my conscience, and refuse to apologize and continue to be bitter hate and hold a grudge the rest of my life and through eternity. God gave me free will to be bitter hate, or forgiving and to love. Its up to me.

And that what either gets you into heaven or keeps you out.

The “keeps you out” part is on the other thread. Yes, I do get mixed up also.

So here, the questions here are:

1. Why do people ignore their conscience?
2. Why do people refuse to apologize?
3. Why do people hang onto grudges?

Again, in order to determine the K&WRG aspect, we would need to know what is actually going on in the person’s mind. You might be thinking, “how on earth can we know that, there must be an infinite number of possibilities…etc.”

And that would be a valid point. There probably are an infinite number of possibilities. Here is what I do. I figure out the “best case” scenario. Say, the person hates the guy who raped, tortured, and killed his daughter and cannot “go there”. Then, I take the take the “worst case” scenario, say “he hates all people because he thinks that everyone is annoying, worthless scum but himself.” The BCS and the WCS will be different for everyone, indeed, these images are all part of the formation of the conscience itself. We resent, we form an image, we despise the image, and we avoid being like the image. The image is in the content of our shadow, and to me it is the core of the conscience, our God-given conscience.

Anyway, once I have forgiven the images in the BCS and the WCS, then I am once again reconciled. There may be some “in-betweens” to work through, but the majority of the introspection is done. It is a prayerful introspection, I pray for understanding, and I am always having to go back to some very humbling admissions.

Thank you so much for your charity and respect. You must know I am especially enjoying our discussion, I much prefer looking at real-life examples instead of philosophical assertions.

 

[OneSheep]

I know very well why abusers do what they do and how they understand their role in abusive situation.
It does not help one to move on by pretending that their abuser did not know what they were doing.
The people whom I am talking about know exactly what they are doing. They continue unless restrained.

Excellent. An example to work on so we can investigate whether some K&WRG is occuring. You are saying they know exactly what they are doing, so tell me what they know.

No, it does not help to pretend that the abuser does not know what he is doing, what does help is to actually understand why the abuser does what he does.

It sounds like you know why abusers do what they do, great! Share with me what you know, Aloysium. Why do abusers do what they do?

Yes, the abuser is to be restrained. No understanding or forgiveness should ever inhibit our action in aiding and protecting people.