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chefmomster2
Guest
Some Church Teaching on the subject of the thread:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The Church professes her faith in the Athanasian Creed : “They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire” ( Denzinger, “Enchiridion”, 10th ed., 1908, n.40). The Church has repeatedly defined this truth, e.g. in the profession of faith made in the Second Council of Lyons (Denx., n. 464) and in the Decree of Union in the Council of Florence (Denz., N. 693): "the souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments" ( poenis disparibus ).
…God must avenge the violation of the moral order in such wise as to preserve, at least in general, some proportion between the gravity of sin and the severity of punishment. But it is evident from experience that God does not always do this on earth; therefore He will inflict punishment after death. Moreover, if all men were fully convinced that the sinner need fear no kind of punishment after death, moral and social order would be seriously menaced. This, however, Divine wisdom cannot permit.
Again, if there were no retribution beyond that which takes place before our eyes here on earth, we should have to consider God extremely indifferent to good and evil, and we could in no way account for His justice and holiness.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The Church professes her faith in the Athanasian Creed : “They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire” ( Denzinger, “Enchiridion”, 10th ed., 1908, n.40). The Church has repeatedly defined this truth, e.g. in the profession of faith made in the Second Council of Lyons (Denx., n. 464) and in the Decree of Union in the Council of Florence (Denz., N. 693): "the souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments" ( poenis disparibus ).
…God must avenge the violation of the moral order in such wise as to preserve, at least in general, some proportion between the gravity of sin and the severity of punishment. But it is evident from experience that God does not always do this on earth; therefore He will inflict punishment after death. Moreover, if all men were fully convinced that the sinner need fear no kind of punishment after death, moral and social order would be seriously menaced. This, however, Divine wisdom cannot permit.
Again, if there were no retribution beyond that which takes place before our eyes here on earth, we should have to consider God extremely indifferent to good and evil, and we could in no way account for His justice and holiness.
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simpleas
Guest
The Egyptains believed after death that the soul would be judged, if a person had been bad, their soul would be consummed by a creature and cease to exist. We believe we will go to hell, and suffer torture for all eternity.
Does our church believe that people are only moral and good to each other because they fear a punishment after death?
Many people are moral, love each other because they want to love each other, not because they are afraid if they don’t they will go to hell.
Our lives can be a living hell, and even if we don’t make the mark, the 100% many think we all should be able to hit, having to fear that after this life lies an eternal damnation from a loving God, would make me want to pack it all in!
Does our church believe that people are only moral and good to each other because they fear a punishment after death?
Many people are moral, love each other because they want to love each other, not because they are afraid if they don’t they will go to hell.
Our lives can be a living hell, and even if we don’t make the mark, the 100% many think we all should be able to hit, having to fear that after this life lies an eternal damnation from a loving God, would make me want to pack it all in!
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chefmomster2
Guest
Our Church wants us to a life of love because we have faith. But, it recognizes that the possibility of punishment is sometimes necessary as a safeguard. (We want our children to do the right thing for more important reasons than not wanting us to punish them, am I right?)
It stresses much more strongly that if we lead lives of love according to God’s will we have no need to fear hell. I can get the CCC references if you need them.
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OneSheep
Guest
Vico! I am glad you had the time to respond again today. We can work this out, but it is going to involve really figuring out what is going on in the mind of the man! We can do this, with your help.
Okay, now we are starting to get somewhere on this, but this is only a partial explanation, and I did not know that it pertained directly to the question “why is he not sorry?”. Now that I know it does, let us try to put these into “I” statements from the man itself.
Please, pick one, or provide another that specifically starts with “I am not sorry because…”
A. " I am not sorry, because I do not want to be sorry. If I am sorry, then my conscience will force me to give up conjugal relations with my wife. Even though I only have 3 days left to live, those conjugal relations are worth my eternal life away from (possibly) God, her, and all of my friends and family. I don’t want to think about being sorry. I don’t want to think about any of it. I am not sorry about the times I have had with my wife. Those times have been the best of my life.
B. I am not sorry, because what I am doing is not wrong. The Church wanted me to have had married in the Church, but that is not what happened. Now, it would be more wrong to break up with her and not be intimate for these last few days than to give intimacy up in order to jump through some random hoop that the Church requires. All I can face right now is my wife; I really need her right now, not a bunch of righteous jerks. I am choosing to ignore the laws of the Church because they are wrong.
C. I am not sorry, because even though getting married outside of the Church was wrong, it would have been a greater wrong to refrain from marrying the person who I think God wants me to be with forever. Neither one of us was particularly religious at the time, but we did one right thing, we married each other; God put us together, and we made life-commitments to one another. Staying together, and intimate, is a greater “right”.
D. Please come up with another option as to why this specific man is not sorry. Since this thread is about “knowing and willing” we have to determine what is going on in his mind. What is this man thinking?
Please, in answering this question, do not bring forward any more statements you have given in the past, because none of them reflect what he is actually thinking on this particular question. There is nothing you can find in doctrine that will quote what this man is actually (or possibly) thinking.
May God Bless you, Vico. Thank you for your continued patience.
Yes, as defined. But remember, what I am looking for is an example of someone K&WRG, what is going on in the mind of a particular sinner.
Still, nothing in that part explains why this man is not sorry. There is a reason, we just do not know it yet, until he explains his thinking.
Okay, now we are starting to get somewhere on this, but this is only a partial explanation, and I did not know that it pertained directly to the question “why is he not sorry?”. Now that I know it does, let us try to put these into “I” statements from the man itself.
Please, pick one, or provide another that specifically starts with “I am not sorry because…”
A. " I am not sorry, because I do not want to be sorry. If I am sorry, then my conscience will force me to give up conjugal relations with my wife. Even though I only have 3 days left to live, those conjugal relations are worth my eternal life away from (possibly) God, her, and all of my friends and family. I don’t want to think about being sorry. I don’t want to think about any of it. I am not sorry about the times I have had with my wife. Those times have been the best of my life.
B. I am not sorry, because what I am doing is not wrong. The Church wanted me to have had married in the Church, but that is not what happened. Now, it would be more wrong to break up with her and not be intimate for these last few days than to give intimacy up in order to jump through some random hoop that the Church requires. All I can face right now is my wife; I really need her right now, not a bunch of righteous jerks. I am choosing to ignore the laws of the Church because they are wrong.
C. I am not sorry, because even though getting married outside of the Church was wrong, it would have been a greater wrong to refrain from marrying the person who I think God wants me to be with forever. Neither one of us was particularly religious at the time, but we did one right thing, we married each other; God put us together, and we made life-commitments to one another. Staying together, and intimate, is a greater “right”.
D. Please come up with another option as to why this specific man is not sorry. Since this thread is about “knowing and willing” we have to determine what is going on in his mind. What is this man thinking?
Please, in answering this question, do not bring forward any more statements you have given in the past, because none of them reflect what he is actually thinking on this particular question. There is nothing you can find in doctrine that will quote what this man is actually (or possibly) thinking.
Yes, the will to stop sinning is not present. He is not thinking that the Church is wrong, he is irrationally choosing what is wrong even though he knows what is right. In any case, his judgment is corrupted, he does not know what he is doing in the all-inclusive sense. In those cases, he is not K&WRG. The question that we are currently working on is why he is not sorry. If he is not sorry, then to me the sacrament of matrimony is not included in his “moral sense”. If we fully see something we are doing is immoral, then we are sorry, right?
May God Bless you, Vico. Thank you for your continued patience.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Exactly. That is why I am saying that the question begs the question. It is a “loaded question”, it contains an untested premise that is assumed to be true. It’s like me asking someone, why are you a murderer?, or something like that, to someone who has done no such crime.
Nope. I can, in my experience, never encounter a case, but that still would not eliminate the possiblity. I could have 2 billion people’s worth of experiences over a 100 year period, and yet I would still not have every possible experience, nor know every scenario. I have to say that it can happen, even though I have yet to see a case or come up with a scenario. I know enough to know that I am far from omniscient.
Please correct me where I am wrong in expressing your thesis. Again, let’s not nitpick with each other. We are looking at general statements here, if possible.
Yes! General statements can include many exceptions, though. Something to keep in mind.
I am reading Good Goats right now; my dear wife gave it to me for an anniversary present (32 years last Friday!) The book transcends the entire topic here. Quite a read!
I love the title.
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pepipop
Guest
I hope you don’t mind me butting in, I think I was in at the beginning of this thread or a similar one.
I agree, how do ‘sinners’ determine that they are K+WRG. I haven’t read through all the posts and this may have been posted already, but could it be to do with society’s acceptance of e.g. ‘living together’ in relation to the above example, (whilst this was not the case 50 yrs ago) especially with other lay/lapsed Catholics doing this. The fact the man is actually ‘married’ would infer to his conscience that he did take the step to actually get married, so in his eyes he may assume he is morally superior.
I think a lot of ‘moral judgement’ within a secularised based society, is equated to the law and accepted lifestyle patterns of others, within society, at that period in time. The fact this man’s actions would offend God would not come readily into his way of thinking as he most likely feels he is already taken a step-up from society’s sinful ways by actually getting married in the first place. Now, I recognise this is totally incorrect for a good practicising catholic, but could easily be the thinking pattern of someone that has strayed and he would not in his eyes be K+WRG…
I too find it difficult to see an instance of how someone K+WRG when they are committing a mortal sin, if their consciences have been softened and they believe they are not doing so.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
The Act of Contrition makes it abundantly clear that we are good both for the perfect reason (love) and for the imperfect reason (fear). The two reasons are not incompatible. While one reason will be more relevant to the person farther up the spiritual ladder, the other reason will impact the person farther down. Both persons need a motive to be better than they are, and Jesus made it very clear, when you read the end of Matthew 25, that hell is in the offing for those who do not love.
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Vico
Guest
- You wrote: “The question I am asking is if anyone ever sins while K&WRG.”
A. I see that you ignore important information that I post, therefore it will not be resolved without repetition. - You wrote: “Yes, as defined. But remember, what I am looking for is an example of someone K&WRG, what is going on in the mind of a particular sinner.”
- You wrote: “Still, nothing in that part explains why this man is not sorry. There is a reason, we just do not know it yet, until he explains his thinking.”
- You wrote: “What is this man thinking?”
A. ** CCC 1451 **has: “Contrition is “sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again.””
Dictionary sorrow (verb): “Feel or display deep distress”
He thinks: “I have sorrow for the sin, but am not willing to turn away from the near occasions of sin, so I do not have contrition. This is the truth taught by the Church, which I accept.”
- You wrote: “Yes, the will to stop sinning is not present. He is not thinking that the Church is wrong, he is irrationally choosing what is wrong even though he knows what is right. In any case, his judgment is corrupted, he does not know what he is doing in the all-inclusive sense. In those cases, he is not K&WRG.”
A. Based on what you have written there, what you call “K&WRG” is not the same as what is meant by the Catholic Church in defining commission of sin as is the topic of this thread. It is therefore off topic. - You wrote: “The question that we are currently working on is why he is not sorry.”
A. You are insistent, it is fine with me. - You wrote: "If he is not sorry, then to me the sacrament of matrimony is not included in his “moral sense”.
A. I do not agree. - You wrote: “If we fully see something we are doing is immoral, then we are sorry, right?”
A. I do not agree.
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chefmomster2
Guest
Welcome!
Assuming that it is possible for someone to K&W commit a grave act, then they do by definition reject God. Mortal sin is the complete rejection of God’s love.
Think of it this way.
Your spouse tells you that if you ever tell anyone that she failed third grade as she will consider it a sign of your total rejection of her. You really do love her. She is a great wife. You want to be with her always. But, one night you are at a party.
You are playing some sort of “truth or dare” game. You are asked to tell one embarrassing thing about your spouse. You are fully knowing since she made the rule quite clear to you, and you are capable of full consent since you haven’t been drinking or anything else. You consider it for a moment and then, because we all do rotten things sometimes, you blurt it out!
Did you mean to reject her? Did you mean to end the relationship? Nope. Just being an inconsiderate jerk. You head home after giving her time to cool off. Your bags are packed and sitting at the front door!
Did you want to keep her? Sure! But, you did something that she told you would cause your relationship to collapse. Now it’s done.
Hopefully, as with God, you can reconcile before it’s too late.
God told us what will break our relationship with Him- mortal sin. He didn’t say we have to shout our rejection. He didn’t say we have to reject Him directly. He said that if we commit mortal sin, it’s over. (Unless we reconcile.)
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pepipop
Guest
But is that not the whole crux of the problem, as you’re saying you were fully ‘knowing’, in this analogy.Welcome!
Assuming that it is possible for someone to K&W commit a grave act, then they do by definition reject God. Mortal sin is the complete rejection of God’s love.
Think of it this way.
Your spouse tells you that if you ever tell anyone that she failed third grade as she will consider it a sign of your total rejection of her. You really do love her. She is a great wife. You want to be with her always. But, one night you are at a party.
You are playing some sort of “truth or dare” game. You are asked to tell one embarrassing thing about your spouse. You are fully knowing since she made the rule quite clear to you, and you are capable of full consent since you haven’t been drinking or anything else. You consider it for a moment and then, because we all do rotten things sometimes, you blurt it out!
Did you mean to reject her? Did you mean to end the relationship? Nope. Just being an inconsiderate jerk. You head home after giving her time to cool off. Your bags are packed and sitting at the front door!
Did you want to keep her? Sure! But, you did something that she told you would cause your relationship to collapse. Now it’s done.
Hopefully, as with God, you can reconcile before it’s too late.
God told us what will break our relationship with Him- mortal sin. He didn’t say we have to shout our rejection. He didn’t say we have to reject Him directly. He said that if we commit mortal sin, it’s over. (Unless we reconcile.)
Only when people are fully committed Christians/Catholics and have formed a strong personal relationship with God are they fully aware of committing a mortal sin. The lapsed/lax Catholics however do not have such a personal relationship with God, hence their committing a ‘mortal sin’, i.e. marrying outwith the church - as it is not a ‘crime’ in society - most likely do not recognise they have sinned at all, and/or if they are made aware of it STILL would not feel that they had/were K+WRG.
They would be in a quandary, as in their minds they are still ‘married’ hence better than the ‘living together’ folks and they would most likely assume that God ‘knows/knew’ they had not committed a ‘sin’ (now that they have been made aware of it) either knowingly or willingly - it was just a fact of life for them at that time. As they did not commit the sin K+W they may not see any urgency in rectifying it.
It was not a ‘sin’, in their eyes, at the time of them marrying, hence rectifying it would not be an urgent and possibly a necessary matter for them to do so.
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chefmomster2
Guest
Two comments:
First, a person does not have to believe they are wrong or sinful. In fact, they generally have a justification for their action. If I sleep in on Sunday morning, I most likely tell myself that it’s OK. But this does not remove culpability. If I know that missing Mass is a grievous act, that is all that is required. This is the definition of “knowledge” put forth by the Church.
Secondly, the “lapsed” Catholic has certainly already rejected Church teaching or they would not be in this quandry. The lack of relationship is on their part. This sinful state cannot then be used as an excuse for their further sinfulness. This is willful ignorance and actually carries with it greater, not lesser, consequences. The key is restoration, not justification.
K&WRG is the is the definition of mortal sin. If we are judged by God to have committed a mortal sin and we do not reconcile, we have rejected God and chosen death.
I do not mean to say that the people in your examples would beyond a doubt be “guilty”. (They could certainly have diminished culpability due to some particulars in each case.) We can’t know that. But, if they are, it is a fatal and eternal error.
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Vico
Guest
St. Pope John Paul II gives many sources of the sins of trial marriages, free union, and civil unions.*a) Trial Marriages
It will be very useful to investigate the causes of this phenomenon, including its psychological and sociological aspect, in order to find the proper remedy.
b) De Facto Free Unions …
Some people consider themselves almost forced into a free union by difficult economic, cultural or religious situations, on the grounds that, if they contracted a regular marriage, they would be exposed to some form of harm, would lose economic advantages, would be discriminated against, etc. In other cases, however, one encounters people who scorn, rebel against or reject society, the institution of the family and the social and political order, or who are solely seeking pleasure. Then there are those who are driven to such situations by extreme ignorance or poverty, sometimes by a conditioning due to situations of real injustice, or by a certain psychological immaturity that makes them uncertain or afraid to enter into a stable and definitive union. In some countries, traditional customs presume that the true and proper marriage will take place only after a period of cohabitation and the birth of the first child.
- A first example of an irregular situation is provided by what are called “trial marriages,” which many people today would like to justify by attributing a certain value to them. But human reason leads one to see that they are unacceptable, by showing the unconvincing nature of carrying out an “experiment” with human beings, whose dignity demands that they should be always and solely the term of a self-giving love without limitations of time or of any other circumstance. …
It will be very useful to investigate the causes of this phenomenon, including its psychological and sociological aspect, in order to find the proper remedy.
b) De Facto Free Unions …
Some people consider themselves almost forced into a free union by difficult economic, cultural or religious situations, on the grounds that, if they contracted a regular marriage, they would be exposed to some form of harm, would lose economic advantages, would be discriminated against, etc. In other cases, however, one encounters people who scorn, rebel against or reject society, the institution of the family and the social and political order, or who are solely seeking pleasure. Then there are those who are driven to such situations by extreme ignorance or poverty, sometimes by a conditioning due to situations of real injustice, or by a certain psychological immaturity that makes them uncertain or afraid to enter into a stable and definitive union. In some countries, traditional customs presume that the true and proper marriage will take place only after a period of cohabitation and the birth of the first child.
- c) Catholics in Civil Marriages*
- There are increasing cases of Catholics who for ideological or practical reasons, prefer to contract a merely civil marriage, and who reject or at least defer religious marriage. Their situation cannot of course be likened to that of people simply living together without any bond at all, because in the present case there is at least a certain commitment to a properly-defined and probably stable state of life, even though the possibility of a future divorce is often present in the minds of those entering a civil marriage. By seeking public recognition of their bond on the part of the State, such couples show that they are ready to accept not only its advantages but also its obligations. Nevertheless, not even this situation is acceptable to the Church.
The aim of pastoral action will be to make these people understand the need for consistency between their choice of life and the faith that they profess, and to try to do everything possible to induce them to regularize their situation in the light of Christian principle. While treating them with great charity and bringing them into the life of the respective communities, the pastors of the Church will regrettably not be able to admit them to the sacraments.
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pepipop
Guest
I’m afraid it still does not cover the word ‘knowingly’.
Some Catholics may have received no catechism, or very limited instruction, especially if they went to non-catholic schools. They may still have gone to church each Sunday with their family and associated with being a good Catholic but then followed what everyone else was doing in their social group, when older - who may also be Catholic.
They go to church, pray to God and will not know that they are committing mortal sins, as ‘everyone else is doing it’, scenario. Obviously, yourself and I recognise mortal sins and ‘know’ them and would be straight to confession if we committed one, but lay Catholics do not necessarily realise this.
They feel as they’re praying to God, going to mass regularly, loving their neighbour, doing charity work, etc… and ‘being good’ citizens that they are not K or WRG.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Hi pepipop (great name!)
Do butt in!
I have never heard of consciences being “softened”, but I love the imagery. Yes, I think that many in such relationships do not think that what they are doing is wrong, they see no harm in it. I think that this is it the majority of the time. And after all, isn’t any life commitment to a spouse better than none at all? Sure, they are less than the ideal, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. And who, having dedicated their whole life and future in love to another, does not in such behavior have a pretty good “knowledge” of Love?
Is the Catholic, who practices all the necessary sacraments but marries with a less-than-genuine covenant with his wife somehow better off? Interesting question to investigate.
As far as the man Vico and I are discussing, his conscience has not experienced such a “softening”, I think. We are talking about a rather unique case, and it is quite fascinating.
Thanks for your “butting in”.
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pepipop
Guest
Hi OnesheepHi pepipop (great name!)
Do butt in!
I have never heard of consciences being “softened”, but I love the imagery. Yes, I think that many in such relationships do not think that what they are doing is wrong, they see no harm in it. I think that this is it the majority of the time. And after all, isn’t any life commitment to a spouse better than none at all? Sure, they are less than the ideal, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. And who, having dedicated their whole life and future in love to another, does not in such behavior have a pretty good “knowledge” of Love?
Is the Catholic, who practices all the necessary sacraments but marries with a less-than-genuine covenant with his wife somehow better off? Interesting question to investigate.
As far as the man Vico and I are discussing, his conscience has not experienced such a “softening”, I think. We are talking about a rather unique case, and it is quite fascinating.
Thanks for your “butting in”.
Yes, I confess to not reading through to the case you are discussing but do agree with the premise that it is difficult to say how people K+WRG.
The only circumstance I could see K+WRG occurring, is if I, as a committed Catholic now (although cradle), decided I would go and live with someone, ‘knowing’ it was a mortal sin but thought what odds I’ll do it anyway - OBVIOUSLY not something I or many people would ever do, it would mean I was totally rejecting God and his laws.
Haha… I suppose I should have said hardening of conscience, in my mind’s eye it had become ‘soft’!
O
OneSheep
Guest
Hi Vico!
This case gets to be more interesting at every turn, and it continues to amaze me that I can so totally misunderstand the situation. You are conversing with a real dunce, Vico, and I apologize. I am trying.
I think (tentatively) that we can now put it all together in a statement form the man, please choose from the following, or, as usual, suggest an alternative.
Why does the man not resolve to avoid the sin?
A. I am sorry, but I do not resolve to avoid the sin. I do not think I am doing anything wrong, but I am sorry because I may have made God angry even though I think that He still loves and forgives me. I am not going to stop my behavior because I don’t think I am doing anything wrong.(statement of modified conscience)
B. I am sorry, but I do not resolve to avoid the sin. I would like to have such resolve, but realistically I cannot stop myself from intimate relations with my wife, even though I know I will be dead in 3 days and I will go straight to hell. I give up. I can’t do it.(statement of despair)
C. I am sorry, but I do not resolve to avoid the sin. What I am doing is wrong, and I deserve hell, but I don’t care. The last 3 days on Earth being intimate with my wife is worth an eternity in hell.(statement of despair, lack of self worth, short-sightedness, with probably a load of doubt)
D. I am sorry, but I do not resolve to avoid the sin. I do not have resolve to avoid the sin because…(fill in the blank, Vico, create a statement that reflects what is going on in his mind)
Now, Vico, this is again a multiple choice question. Since I have been batting ZERO on trying to discern what is going on in this man’s mind, I am going to realistically say that “D” is going to be the correct answer. Chances are that A,B, & C go against something you said earlier about the situation, which I seem to have trouble keeping together in my head as there is so much that is confusing to me about this guy.
As far as us fully seeing something that we are doing is immoral, but not being sorry, then we would have to do another investigation, maybe. This man sees (to at least some degree) that what he is doing is immoral, and he is sorry.
Thanks again for your efforts, I look forward to your response.
This case gets to be more interesting at every turn, and it continues to amaze me that I can so totally misunderstand the situation. You are conversing with a real dunce, Vico, and I apologize. I am trying.
Now, I am grasping it. I needed to hear that distinction between sorrow and contrition in this specific case. I think everyone reading this would have to admit that there are “levels” of sorrow. For example, if a person says, “I am sorry that I slapped your face, but I am going to keep doing it.” then there isn’t much “sorrow” involved at all, or certainly not enough!
I think (tentatively) that we can now put it all together in a statement form the man, please choose from the following, or, as usual, suggest an alternative.
Why does the man not resolve to avoid the sin?
A. I am sorry, but I do not resolve to avoid the sin. I do not think I am doing anything wrong, but I am sorry because I may have made God angry even though I think that He still loves and forgives me. I am not going to stop my behavior because I don’t think I am doing anything wrong.(statement of modified conscience)
B. I am sorry, but I do not resolve to avoid the sin. I would like to have such resolve, but realistically I cannot stop myself from intimate relations with my wife, even though I know I will be dead in 3 days and I will go straight to hell. I give up. I can’t do it.(statement of despair)
C. I am sorry, but I do not resolve to avoid the sin. What I am doing is wrong, and I deserve hell, but I don’t care. The last 3 days on Earth being intimate with my wife is worth an eternity in hell.(statement of despair, lack of self worth, short-sightedness, with probably a load of doubt)
D. I am sorry, but I do not resolve to avoid the sin. I do not have resolve to avoid the sin because…(fill in the blank, Vico, create a statement that reflects what is going on in his mind)
Now, Vico, this is again a multiple choice question. Since I have been batting ZERO on trying to discern what is going on in this man’s mind, I am going to realistically say that “D” is going to be the correct answer. Chances are that A,B, & C go against something you said earlier about the situation, which I seem to have trouble keeping together in my head as there is so much that is confusing to me about this guy.
What I am still trying to do is to find a real case or scenario where a person actually commits a mortal sin, as defined. From the cross, Jesus looked upon a crowd and realized that they did not know what they were doing. This, in my observation, is universally accurate for all sin.
I look forward to the answer to the multiple-choice question on this post, so that the situation can become more clarified.
As far as us fully seeing something that we are doing is immoral, but not being sorry, then we would have to do another investigation, maybe. This man sees (to at least some degree) that what he is doing is immoral, and he is sorry.
Thanks again for your efforts, I look forward to your response.
V
Vico
Guest
From my September 1st post:This person that had stopped actively practicing the Catholic faith, decides to return to actively practicing the Catholic faith, and knows that to receive the sacraments requires reconciliation with God and the Church. This person knows that it is not possible to receive Communion without first making a contrite confession. This person knows that it cannot happen until the proper disposition is acquired, which requires turning away from all gravely sinful actions, and that the current actions are gravely sinful. This person decides to separate from the spouse and to stop having marital relations, but then when it comes to actually doing it, does not do so thinking
“I don’t want to give up the pleasure of conjugal relations”.
Therefore the *will *to stop sinning is not present so a valid confession cannot be made.
Sirach 3:26
A stubborn heart will fare badly in the end; those who love danger will perish in it.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Good Evening, Vico
Yes, we know that he does not want to give up his conjugal relations for the last 3 days of his life. The question is, given that he will be back in “God’s grace” and therefore “win” eternal life if he gives up the conjugal relations for a short period and then confesses, why would he not do so? Why does he refuse? Is it because he still thinks he is right? Is it because of despair? Is it because he is self-loathing? There must be some reason, in his mind, even though to us it may seem illogical. There must be some reason why he is making the choice to suffer for eternity.
It is more precise when it is in the “I” form, like you presented. Is he persisting in his sin, even though he is sorry, because he is stubborn? Well, there are a lot of reasons for stubbornness. He could be defiant, thinking that he is right. If that is the case, pick “A” from post 898. Is he stubborn because he is in despair? Then pick B. Is he stubborn because of short-sighted refusal to address the issue of eternal suffering, that is, is fear keeping him from thinking about it? Pick C.
Is desire blinding his ability to be rational?
Please, my friend, go back to post 898 and pick A,B,C, or D.
“I do not want to give up the pleasure of conjugal relations, even though such refusal leads to an eternity of suffering because…”
This is still a bit confusing, because you said that he sees his relationship with God as more important than staying with his wife.
Unless, of course, the scenario changed a little, which is fine.God be with you! Thanks again…
V
Vico
Guest
You wrote: “because you said that he sees his relationship with God as more important than staying with his wife.”Good Evening, Vico
Yes, we know that he does not want to give up his conjugal relations for the last 3 days of his life. The question is, given that he will be back in “God’s grace” and therefore “win” eternal life if he gives up the conjugal relations for a short period and then confesses, why would he not do so? Why does he refuse? Is it because he still thinks he is right? Is it because of despair? Is it because he is self-loathing? There must be some reason, in his mind, even though to us it may seem illogical. There must be some reason why he is making the choice to suffer for eternity.
It is more precise when it is in the “I” form, like you presented. Is he persisting in his sin, even though he is sorry, because he is stubborn? Well, there are a lot of reasons for stubbornness. He could be defiant, thinking that he is right. If that is the case, pick “A” from post 898. Is he stubborn because he is in despair? Then pick B. Is he stubborn because of short-sighted refusal to address the issue of eternal suffering, that is, is fear keeping him from thinking about it? Pick C.
Is desire blinding his ability to be rational?
Please, my friend, go back to post 898 and pick A,B,C, or D.
“I do not want to give up the pleasure of conjugal relations, even though such refusal leads to an eternity of suffering because…”
This is still a bit confusing, because you said that he sees his relationship with God as more important than staying with his wife.
God be with you! Thanks again…
A. We covered this before, I did not say that. I asked if you considered “equal”.
I’m not going along with the last three days addition to my original scenario. It is irrelevant because the decision would be the same.
There are those Catholics whose dissent from a teaching of the Church who:
- are aware that their present belief is contrary to the Church’s teaching,
- are not aware that their present belief is contrary to the Church’s teaching.
He is aware of what the Church teaches yet has civilly married against the precept and due to fear, has regret and seeks to regularize his situation. He does not repent of the original sin through which he married civilly.
- Status