Why does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God?

[Achilles6129]

But see, if they are doing so are they actually rejecting God, or are they rejecting a false image?

It would be better to reject the false image.

Right, I suppose they are just rejecting their interpretation of God. From their point of view God is evil; the question is, is their point of view correct?

Wait a second, if someone thinks that “God is” then is that not already an indication that someone thinks that God exists?

Perhaps you mean to say that if some one thinks that a god-concept is evil then it doesn’t exists (which is a bit less of a contradiction). But would that be an implicit statement that something that is evil in concept cannot be real/concrete?

Right - someone thinks that the only God that could ever exist would be an evil God (at least by their standards and their point of view). So they simply don’t believe in God because they claim that an “evil God” would contradict their notions of God anyway, since God is supposed to be all-good and all-just.

 

[OneSheep]

They reject God because there cannot be 2 gods. You will accept God and obey him. Or you reject God and as Adam and Eve, want to be a god, so you disobey him and try to be a god yourself.

There can only be One God. The one true God Creator of Heaven and Earth. Or false gods, which are many, Human can follow Human, or Human can follow himself. All false gods.

The reason they knowingly and willingly reject him is their lust for evil. Just like a married person can have a beautiful and loving spouse, but they want more. So their lust for more drives them to evil. As in a relationship, you cheat, lie, whatever it takes to get what YOU want, not what is good for others, you don’t care about who you hurt in the process.

So, if what you want is what is good for others, because it fulfills you to see others benefit, then that indicates spiritual growth, right?

I am saying that the question begs the question. Does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God? I have never observed it happening.

When a person follows a “false god”, well, he is thinking that it is his god, right? So he is not “knowing”, and his will is following his false “knowing”. He is unaware. Do you see what I mean?

 

[OneSheep]

Right, I suppose they are just rejecting their interpretation of God. From their point of view God is evil; the question is, is their point of view correct?

A priest once told us (paraphrased). “If a person sees Jesus as unmerciful, unforgiving, and vengeful, they are better off rejecting Jesus.”

Well, no, the point of view is not correct, but there are some people who follow an unmerciful, unforgiving, or vengeful god, right? And such following does not build the Kingdom.

The priest was emphasizing the importance of how we are depicting God when we evangelize.

 

[Achilles6129]

A priest once told us (paraphrased). “If a person sees Jesus as unmerciful, unforgiving, and vengeful, they are better off rejecting Jesus.”

Well, no, the point of view is not correct, but there are some people who follow an unmerciful, unforgiving, or vengeful god, right? And such following does not build the Kingdom.

The priest was emphasizing the importance of how we are depicting God when we evangelize.

We also need to make sure that we’re depicting the God of the Bible. The fact is that God is going to come across to many people as all of the above if we quote the real Bible to people. That doesn’t mean God is evil, it just means that that’s how God is going to come across until one does a deeper study.

 

[OneSheep]

We also need to make sure that we’re depicting the God of the Bible. The fact is that God is going to come across to many people as all of the above if we quote the real Bible to people. That doesn’t mean God is evil, it just means that that’s how God is going to come across until one does a deeper study.

The priest I quoted said, “Yes, you can take the Bible literally, unless there appears to be a contradiction.” He was convinced that a person has to know the whole Bible to fully understand. Yes, the “deeper study” is a must.

He also greatly valued modern psychological findings.

 

[davidv]

So, if what you want is what is good for others, because it fulfills you to see others benefit, then that indicates spiritual growth, right?

I am saying that the question begs the question. Does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God? I have never observed it happening.

When a person follows a “false god”, well, he is thinking that it is his god, right? So he is not “knowing”, and his will is following his false “knowing”. He is unaware. Do you see what I mean?

Is the following a fair summary of you position?
It is impossible to sin mortally because no one can knowingly and willingly reject God.
If so, this is directly contrary to Church teaching.

 

[OneSheep]

Is the following a fair summary of you position?
It is impossible to sin mortally because no one can knowingly and willingly reject God.
If so, this is directly contrary to Church teaching.

I could not use the word “impossible”, because that would make me omniscient. No, what I am saying is that I cannot think of a situation or scenario where such knowing and willing rejection actually happens. I have never run across an example of such.

Have you? If so, please describe.

 

[rinnie]

So, if what you want is what is good for others, because it fulfills you to see others benefit, then that indicates spiritual growth, right?

I am saying that the question begs the question. Does anyone knowingly and willingly reject God? I have never observed it happening.

When a person follows a “false god”, well, he is thinking that it is his god, right? So he is not “knowing”, and his will is following his false “knowing”. He is unaware. Do you see what I mean?

Not always people follow the devil, and as hard as it is to believe there are many organizations that we are not even aware of.

As far as can people believe they are serving the one True God and be wrong, Sure many do. Luther got the ball rolling with false doctrines and it just spread like fire from there.

But I thought the thread said KNOWINLY and WILLINGLY reject God.

Following a false God and not knowing is not the same.

 

[rinnie]

We also need to make sure that we’re depicting the God of the Bible. The fact is that God is going to come across to many people as all of the above if we quote the real Bible to people. That doesn’t mean God is evil, it just means that that’s how God is going to come across until one does a deeper study.

Exactly, that is why we need the RCC. The Church is the Pilar of all truth not the bible.
You can have the Church w/o the bible, but no bible w/o the church.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

A priest once told us (paraphrased). “If a person sees Jesus as unmerciful, unforgiving, and vengeful, they are better off rejecting Jesus.”

Anyone would have to be a moron to see Jesus in those terms. No, that’s an insult to morons. Anyone would have to be an idiot to see Jesus in those terms. Idiots are not responsible for their opinions and Jesus will forgive them.

 

[truetofaith]

“It became clear that evolution is true, I had to ask what else in the Bible was false.”- quote : Jiminy Cricket.

---

You may be confusing Evolution with Adaptation. The Giraffe could have gotten such a long neck over millions of years by having to stretch to eat vegetation out of its reach. Only longer necked animals survived to reproduce. This adapting to the environment is plausible. But a fish evolving into a mammal doesn’t ring true.

God made all the creatures "according to its own kind. " No evolution involved!
According to the Bible, God formed man out of the dust of the earth & breathed life into him. A special creation, not an evolution from an ape or any other animal.

 

[OneSheep]

Not always people follow the devil, and as hard as it is to believe there are many organizations that we are not even aware of.

As far as can people believe they are serving the one True God and be wrong, Sure many do. Luther got the ball rolling with false doctrines and it just spread like fire from there.

But I thought the thread said KNOWINLY and WILLINGLY reject God.

Following a false God and not knowing is not the same.

True, they are not the same.

When someone is following a false god, are they doing it knowingly? Are they knowingly rejecting the true God? This is what I don’t see happening, I don’t see people knowingly rejecting the true God; it happens inadvertently, in my viewing.

When people “follow the devil”, (which is nearly always a third-person-evaluation of the circumstance ) they think they are following God. The individual has a misperception, the “following” does not demonstrate awareness, and certainly not wisdom.

 

[OneSheep]

Anyone would have to be a moron to see Jesus in those terms. No, that’s an insult to morons. Anyone would have to be an idiot to see Jesus in those terms. Idiots are not responsible for their opinions and Jesus will forgive them.

Hey, I love a lot of morons. Don’t be so hard on them. Heck, I’m pretty close to being one myself! Ask my son, I really feel like a moron next to that brainy kid.

It is not so uncommon, I think. Fire-and-Brimstone preaching is full of contradiction, and a person could easily walk away believing that Jesus is vengeful.

To me, we are all response-able for our opinions. It is a matter of self-awareness. “I don’t know” is a response. “I thought I was following you” is a response. “I only killed bad people.” is a response. They are responses, but they all communicate an ignorance, right?

 

[Amandil]

Anyone would have to be a moron to see Jesus in those terms. No, that’s an insult to morons. Anyone would have to be an idiot to see Jesus in those terms.

Or insane.

But that’s what sin is, moral insanity. An insanity we chose.

Idiots are not responsible for their opinions and Jesus will forgive them.

But they are responsible if they do nothing to cure their idiocy.

From Lewis again:

This seems that the person who believes this is saying “I don’t care if Christianity is in fact true or not. I’m not interested in finding out whether the real universe is more like what the Christians say than what the Materialists say. All I’m interested in is leading a good life. I’m going to choose beliefs not because I think them true but because I find them helpful.”

One of the things that distinguishes us humans from other animals is that we want to know things, we want to find out what reality is really like, simply for the sake of knowing.

Not that people have really lost this desire, more likely foolish preachers, by always telling people how much Christianity will help them and how good it is for society, have actually led people to forget that Christianity isn’t patent medicine.

Christianity claims to give an account of facts-to tell you what the real universe is like. Its account may be true, or it may not, and once the question is really before you, then your natural inquisitiveness must make you want to know the answer.

If Christianity is untrue, then no honest man will want to believe it, however helpful it might be; if it is true, every honest man will want to believe it, even if it gives him no help at all.

C.S. Lewis, God on the Dock, from the essay, “Man or Rabbit?”

Once confronted with the question, you simply cannot remain an innocent idiot. At once you become a culpable idiot, because you either have want to know and believe or disbelieve.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . they all communicate an ignorance, right?

I’m not sure what this means in real terms.
We all have a relationship with God. It is developed doing His will.
What this means is that we do what we do

• with love, giving of ourselves
• using our reason, giving ourselves to what is true and good
• and with commitment, to see it through.
  This is the formula for happiness.
  All will follow as it should, when we walk with God.

If one does not know this, one will be lost.
For this and other reasons it is important to evangelize, to let people know the good news.
Ignorance is bad for us. If we do not try to pull ouselves out of it, we are essentially rejecting God and doing oursleves harm.
This is not punishment but a direct consquence of going after the wrong things.

There are also tests in life.
To these we can never plead ignorance
In your case, you know the commandments and what the church teaches.
If you choose not to do God’s will as He has revealed it, you will be doing so willfully and in full knowledge of what is the imperative.
At that point you cannot plead ignorance as the choice was to believe or not to believe.
Whether you believe or not is decided in the choice you make.
You must believe Him. Therein lies your choice - there is no place for ignorance in this equation…

 

[OneSheep]

I’m not sure what this means in real terms.
We all have a relationship with God. It is developed doing His will.

Yes, and through prayer, awareness, and meditation.

What this means is that we do what we do

• with love, giving of ourselves
• using our reason, giving ourselves to what is true and good
• and with commitment, to see it through.
  This is the formula for happiness.
  All will follow as it should, when we walk with God.

If one does not know this, one will be lost.
For this and other reasons it is important to evangelize, to let people know the good news.
Ignorance is bad for us. If we do not try to pull ouselves out of it, we are essentially rejecting God and doing oursleves harm.
This is not punishment but a direct consquence of going after the wrong things.

Well stated!

There are also tests in life.
To these we can never plead ignorance

As soon as the word “plead” is mentioned, this takes things in a different direction, right? A plea is an appeal to a higher authority (in this case) to lessen or withdraw a punishment. I think we can both agree that natural consequences occur regardless of ignorance or awareness. Plea all I want, but if I hurt someone my natural conscience is going to give me a beating! And, if I eat too much, I will suffer plenty. These are natural consequences, no amount of “pleading” will help.

In your case, you know the commandments and what the church teaches.
If you choose not to do God’s will as He has revealed it, you will be doing so willfully and in full knowledge of what is the imperative.
At that point you cannot plead ignorance as the choice was to believe or not to believe.
Whether you believe or not is decided in the choice you make.
You must believe Him. Therein lies your choice - there is no place for ignorance in this equation…

Okay, let me address “full knowledge of the imperative”.

I just heard a guy last night on CA radio talking about this. He was talking about how many young people, for example, even though they have been raised Catholic, do not know the seriousness of the sin of fornication.

It is one thing to “know the imperative”, but quite another to “know the seriousness of the sin”. “Knowing the seriousness” involves incorporation of the conscience, and conscience development is a life-long process.

Is there a place for ignorance in this equation? Well, ignorance takes its place whether we like it or not. Look at these examples of ignorance without thinking of them as “excuses” but as explanations. I know, thinking of explanations without having them morph into excuses is very, very difficult.

1. A person may be ignorant of the rule, completely.
2. A person may be ignorant of the consequence.
3. A person may be ignorant of the value of the Authority who makes the rule i.e.“God said it, so what? God is a figment of the imagination.” Or, “you only think God said that.” or: “Am I supposed to take it from the guys who molest little boys?”
4. A person may be ignorant of the steadfastness of the rules. “Hey, lots of people get away with this.”
5. A person may be ignorant of his own value. “I’m going to hell? So what, I am garbage and I have it coming.”
6. A person may be ignorant of the value of the other. “I only fail to forgive the enemy, bad people, heretics, criminals, and idiots. I forgive everyone else.”
7. A person may be ignorant of the hurt caused by sin. “All I did was… so what? I know it is against the rules, but it is no big deal. The rules are stupid.” (This indicates non-incorporation (word?) in the conscience.

Those were some examples of ignorance, and I observe that usually several of these forms are involved at once. Were you successful at seeing these as explanations rather than excuses? I know, it is very difficult. I read them, and my mind starts to contest and say “you should…”; but the fact is, people are ignorant, and lack of awareness is an essential component of all sin.

To me, if one or more of these are involved, then the sinner does not know what he is doing. And I would add that anyone who does not give infinite value to God and to all of His loved creation does not know what he is doing. Yes, lack of awareness is a huge factor in our behaviors. Do you see your mind going to “excuses, excuses”? The mind quickly tries to condemn explanations that sound like excuses. This is the way our normal conscience automatically works.

 

[OneSheep]

Is belief knowledge or not?

According to the Catechism belief is more certain than simple knowledge because of the authority from Whom it’s based.

So to say that I rejected belief in God is no different than saying that I rejected knowledge in God or of God.

Thus I knowingly and willfully rejected God.

It still sounds like you K&W R knowledge of God. Can we take out the microscope a bit?

Why did you reject knowing about God?

 

[Amandil]

It still sounds like you K&W R knowledge of God.

Can we take out the microscope a bit?

Why did you reject knowing about God?

Really?

At this point you’re straining credulity.

I don’t need a microscope to know the certain decision that I made and the certain judgment of my conscience resulting from that decision.

Nor did I need a microscope to know the certain judgment of my conscience resulting from the myriad of sins, the sheer wickedness of my heart and will and my acts of self-aggrandizement and self-worship, to know that what I was doing was evil.

I just simply didn’t care.

In fact, thank God I’m not an atheist now, because with what you’ve been saying since this discussion began I most certainly would be lost. I would have no reason to stop being an atheist, I would continue to sin mortally and into my own destruction because instead of you proclaiming the actual Gospel **you proclaimed a false gospel **, laced with your false sentimentality, confirming that I would be “saved” despite my wickedness and sinfulness without any need of repentance because I “never really rejected God”.

 

[OneSheep]

Nor did I need a microscope to know the certain judgment of my conscience resulting from the myriad of sins, the sheer wickedness of my heart and will and my acts of self-aggrandizement and self-worship, to know that what I was doing was evil.

I just simply didn’t care.

Why didn’t you care?

In fact, thank God I’m not an atheist now, because with what you’ve been saying since this discussion began I most certainly would be lost. I would have no reason to stop being an atheist, I would continue to sin mortally and into my own destruction because instead of you proclaiming the actual Gospel **you proclaimed a false gospel **, laced with your false sentimentality, confirming that I would be “saved” despite my wickedness and sinfulness without any need of repentance because I “never really rejected God”.

Well, you rejected belief. We can try to figure out if you were really rejecting God.

A person caught up in wickedness and sinfulness is not saved, he is a slave. God has loved you throughout your life, and has wanted you to follow Him. You finally did, great!

Again, we are using different definitions of “saved” I think. Our salvation is our choice. Are you saying that something I am relaying about my own relationship with God would have failed to motivate you to repent? Okay, I can accept that. What motivated you to repent? That is the important thing. What did that motivation look like?

What was your reason to stop being an atheist? (This is all part of the same question.)

 

[simpleas]

“It became clear that evolution is true, I had to ask what else in the Bible was false.”- quote : Jiminy Cricket.

---

You may be confusing Evolution with Adaptation. The Giraffe could have gotten such a long neck over millions of years by having to stretch to eat vegetation out of its reach. Only longer necked animals survived to reproduce. This adapting to the environment is plausible. But a fish evolving into a mammal doesn’t ring true.

God made all the creatures "according to its own kind. " No evolution involved!
According to the Bible, God formed man out of the dust of the earth & breathed life into him. A special creation, not an evolution from an ape or any other animal.

Is that a quote by the comedian Jimmy Cricket?