Why does belief in the real presence matter?

[LittleFlower378]

You have already won this argument, you have your reward. I cant play your game of judging others and silencing others. Lets leave it at that. God Bless You!

 

[CilladeRoma]

Please explain how I am judging and silencing others. All I said is we must be careful of throwing around the label of heretic.

 

[fide]

The OP is not a fully initiated Catholic - to use the word “heresy” for what sounds to be mere absence of an crucially important part of the fullness of Catholic Faith, is IMHO, inappropriate at the least and premature condemnation at worst.

From the Catechism

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”<CIC, can. 751: emphasis added>

 

[ShowersofRoses]

To be fair, Thistle was not speaking to the OP. He/She was responding to someone else who asked a question in post 5.

 

[fide]

To be fair, Thistle was not speaking to the OP. He/She was responding to someone else who asked a question in post 5.

Thank you for that correction - I had not noticed… My apologies, Thistle.

 

[thistle]

4th post in.
One cannot make a blanket statement like this without knowing the facts.
In order to be a heretic, you must first believe, then discount that belief.
Seeing how catechesis, especially in the US has be abysmal for 40+ years, it would not surprise me if what we actually believe as Catholics can actually be articulated correctly by many pew sitters.

The Church also teaches that Catholics have the duty to find out what the Church teaches. It teaches that Catholics who refuse to learn or just can’t be bothered to learn what the Church teaches will be held accountable when they die and simply can’t use the excuse to God that they didn’t know a particular action was a sin of grave matter because they didn’t know what the Church taught.

In short, ignorance is NOT bliss.

 

[Rozellelily]

Actually I didn’t know about it until last year.
Please keep in mind that I am Catholic by birth/baptism but didn’t receive First Communion as a child (not parents fault but because I was a wilful child who refused).
Even as an adult when I spoke to a priest about Catholic religion,he gave me a missal,a bible and a Catholic prayer book.
I was not given a catechism,had never heard of it throughout my whole life and only learnt about it on CAF.
Even if I had of read about “Real presence” in the missal etc I’m sure it would have gone over my head as not everyone is exposed to different churches and the meaning/experience of not real vs real presence etc…
Even my sister who did have first communion remembers it mostly about Jesus,colouring in bible stories and the “event” in a white dress (considering she was like 9).
Not everyone knows all this unless they were raised in a family that was very religious or they are themselves.
The Catholic religion is very vast and there is a lot about its views and beliefs that some people may not know about it unless they go online.

The priest after mass might sometimes talk to attendees but not necessarily about their level of understanding etc.
I have no doubt that there are some people going up to the front and receiving Eucharist without fully understanding that they have to first check that they aren’t in mortal sin and fast.
I’m referring to people that are cultural Catholics/raised in Catholic countries culture like myself.

Even amongst “strongly following” Catholics there may still be some people who have genuine doubts and who are not being heretics.

Please keep in mind that your experience and circumstances are not everyone’s.

 

[Rozellelily]

@all,

Thanks for the explanations.
Is there then a difference between someone (like myself) who may see value in Christs teachings and tries to follow them (eg:love your neighbor,have humility) as “aspirational” vs someone who receives the Eucharist and has Jesus living in their soul?
What exactly is the experience of Jesus living in the persons soul,how is this experienced.
Ie:are they perceptually aware of this and what if they sin?
Is it then extra bad or are they under extra pressure not to sin etc because Jesus was “living in them” so to speak?

Who exactly “dwells” within the individual-Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
To complicate things further,as they are One God,do they “dwell within the person” as one entity or two with two “manifestations”?
How are the fruits of the Holy Spirit produced?
Eg:would it be said that only a person who has received the Eucharist can display the fruits of the Holy Spirit or can they also be displayed by someone who’s just baptised?
What about other religions like Muslim etc-can they also have the fruits of the Holy Spirit etc?
Is there a case of the Holy Spirit “working” from the outside vs working from the inside of the persons soul?

Sorry for all the questions!!

 

[JackMcCoy]

Hallelujah, amen!

 

[Eddie18]

It’s necessary because if the Real Presence is true and you don’t believe it, you won’t be giving the adoration due, which would be wrong. If the Real Presence were not true and you were to show adoration as if it were, that would basically be like idolatry.

We have plenty of proof that the Real Presence is true - look up “Eucharistic Miracles”. There are entire books on it.

 

[2towers]

When I became Catholic, something I wanted to do for decades, and is without question, the very best thing I have ever done in my life without question, there was much to absorb. I knew of the real presence, but I did not devote a great deal of thought to it, in the beginning.

There were so many new and strong experiences, that it was a bit overwhelming. The “question” if you will, of the real presence solved itself without me ever taking up, questioning, or examining the issue.

On Maundy Thursday I believe, I walked into the chapel and it was quite crowded. Showing emotion in front of anyone is something I try to avoid at all costs, yet the minuted I walked into this packed chapel, I burst into tears.

A friend who was a RCIA sponser [not mine] simply said, “you get it.” And I did. This issue was settled for me quite quickly, but for others, it might not be. My advice for anyone struggling with this would be to pray for the graces to feel and experience the real presence. Suspend disbelief if you have it, and remain open to the possibility and pray.

The real presence is very real, it is there, and if you want it, you will indeed feel it. Just ask and pray.

 

[PeterT]

Rozellelily:

I’m just wondering why would it matter if people believed that Jesus was literally there or not-does it make some spiritual difference etc?

If Jesus was not present in the Real Presence of the Eucharist, there would be very little point in going to Mass.
That is why we go, to see Him.
Not to listen to a homily - I could get a homily on Youtube or the radio or maybe just read a book.
Not to have “fellowship” - I could go to a bar, a picnic, any other social event for that.
Not even to just pray with people - I could do that online, or pray along with the television, or just grab a few people and go to the park and say prayers.

We go to Mass because Jesus is There In Person, In the Eucharist.

Jesus is also there in Person during Holy Communion during a Communion Service, not only at a Mass. What makes a Mass so special is that at a Mass can we offer as sacrifice to God the Father the greatest gift he has ever given us: his only Son, Christ Jesus. At no other event or celebration can we, the Body of Christ, do this. This is why for me attending a Communion service never comes close to attending an actual Mass, because at a Communion service we cannot offer up to God the Father the greatest gift he gave us.

And back to the topic on hand, this is also why it’s vitally important to accept that the Real Presence of Jesus, his blood and body, soul and divinity, is present in the Holy Eucharist. If not, then what we are offering up to God the Father at Mass is only a thin wafer and some inexpensive wine.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Jesus is also there in Person during Holy Communion during a Communion Service, not only at a Mass.

“Communion services” are a rarity in all the areas where I have lived. They are generally only offered on days when people are expecting a regular Mass and there is suddenly a problem and Mass cannot be held because the priest is called away or sick or just quit or something. Usually there is a Mass.

“Communion services” are not part of my normal worship landscape.

 

[ongpattersonny]

Some Catholics do not have the full understanding of the Eucharist itself for many reasons, I do not believe it is a sin in itself. I was one of those not understanding until lent while I decided to learn more of what mass truly means with better understanding. Gaining knowledge has been a blessing as I continue to learn and grow in my faith.

 

[usinner]

Well it seems that the counsel of Trent makes it mandatory to believe in the sacrament.

 

[joeybaggz]

If you receive holy Communion but still see it as a symbol not the actual body and blood, is that a sin?

Some things to think about…

It would be very, very wrong to receive the Eucharist while denying the Real Presence. You know that only those in unity with the Church can receive. And belief in the Real Presence is an absolute basic, most essential belief to be in unity.

True

Let me repeat this. If a Catholic does not believe in the Real Presence and believes Communion is only symbolic that is heresy.
The penalty is automatic excommunication. That means it does not need to get declared by the priest or bishop for the excommunication to be in effect. It is automatic.

Technically correct.

We need to be very careful here. Throwing around the accusation of heresy is not a good idea or even a Christian one. In order to be guilty of heresy you must first understand exactly what the Church teaches then, with full knowledge, deny that teaching. If one does not understand this, there is no excommunication and no heresy.

Excellent reply.

Think about this Jump, St. Thomas adamantly refused to believe Jesus was risen from the tomb. Did Jesus then thrown him out of the eleven (Judas was gone). No, Jesus came to Thomas to relieve him of his doubt. Thomas had good reason to doubt. He had probably witnessed (from afar) the events of Good Friday. And yet, Jesus had compassion on Thomas.

The upshot of what I am saying is, if you do have doubt, seek out a good priest or spiritual director. And work through your doubt until you come to a hard and fast conclusion. (Hopefully belief)
Heresy and ex communication are never a penalty for doubt, only denial. And I would think that would have to be public in nature.

Shalom

 

[petra22]

If you believe in Jesus and you believe what Jesus said “This is by body, this is my blood” “And if you eat my body and drink my blood you will have life in you and I will raise you up on the last day…”
http://biblehub.com/john/6-54.htm
Anyway, if you believe that and can attend Mass then when the Priest says the words of consecration Jesus is truly present body, blood, soul , and divinity… he is there present with you and you with him. It is so special. You can even spend time with Jesus in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament just like you would a friend. Talk to him or just listen… Make time for him. He waits for us…

 

[petra22]

We believe it, although we can never fully understand it.

This is a big part of it. Believe it because Jesus said it but we cannot understand how it happens like we want to…

 

[Mark121359]

"Well, if it’s a symbol, to hell with it."
~Flannery o’ Connor~

"I was once, five or six years ago, taken by some friends to have dinner with Mary McCarthy and her husband, Mr. Broadwater. (She just wrote that book, “A Charmed Life.”) She departed the Church at the age of 15 and is a Big Intellectual. We went at eight and at one, I hadn’t opened my mouth once, there being nothing for me in such company to say. . . . Having me there was like having a dog present who had been trained to say a few words but overcome with inadequacy had forgotten them.

Well, toward morning the conversation turned on the Eucharist, which I, being the Catholic, was obviously supposed to defend. Mrs. Broadwater said when she was a child and received the host, she thought of it as the Holy Ghost, He being the most portable person of the Trinity; now she thought of it as a symbol and implied that it was a pretty good one. I then said, in a very shaky voice, Well, if it’s a symbol, to hell with it.

That was all the defense I was capable of but I realize now that this is all I will ever be able to say about it, outside of a story, except that it is the center of existence for me; all the rest of life is expendable. "