why does everyone love the Eastern liturgy but despise the Latin Mass?

[tequilamac]

I’m wondering:

Why do so many Catholics seem to be so enamored by the Eastern liturgies, yet not have the same excitement for the traditional Mass of the Latin Church? It seems that at the same time the Latin rite is busy destroying its beautiful liturgy, we’re enamored with the beauty of the Eastern liturgies, and we enourage them to hold to their traditions, while at the same time we’re forsaking ours left and right.

Any thoughts?

Thoughts? Massive generalization and oversimplification. For me I am not all that enamored of the Eastern Liturgies and the Traditional Mass has the exact same value for me as the Novus Ordo. I am not there to worship the ritual. I used to be and the bigger the stained glass and the more traditional the music the better especially if more incense was thrown in. A bad basis on which to place one’s faith. Rituals can change- God doesn’t. Better to worship the God in any of the rituals then to be thrown off course by a change of landscape. Many people left the Church after Vatican II because they did not like the Novus Ordo. They lost their Jesus so to speak. Some never found Him again, if in fact they had ever possessed Him in the first place. He is not a ritual. The fault was not in the ritual but the focus of the people. The ritual itself is a tool for worship and not a foundation for faith and people spend way way too much energy thinking about ritual rather than substance.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’ve attended the liturgy of the Byzantine rite. I appreciated it, I suppose, because I know it confected the Holy Sacrifice and it’s how a great number of our brothers and sisters worship. I didn’t “love” it, though. I much prefer the noble simplicity of a NO Mass reverently celebrated (when you compare the Eastern Liturgy and the TLM, I think even the TLM is more “simple” or spare). So I have to agree with PuzzleAnnie (up to a point: I don’t despise the TLM, but I grown increasingly suspicious of It, I regret to say, since so many of it’s proponents cannot praise it without damning the NO, and behave in an arrogant manner regarding the authority of the Church to regulate her sacraments, basically making themselves little “arm-chair” popes. I have to make an increasingly conscious effort to seperate the Tridentine Mass from some of its proponents. They aren’t doing this venerable rite any favors by their words and attitudes).

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Thoughts? Massive generalization and oversimplification. For me I am not all that enamored of the Eastern Liturgies and the Traditional Mass has the exact same value for me as the Novus Ordo. I am not there to worship the ritual. I used to be and the bigger the stained glass and the more traditional the music the better especially if more incense was thrown in. A bad basis on which to place one’s faith. Rituals can change- God doesn’t. Better to worship the God in any of the rituals then to be thrown off course by a change of landscape. Many people left the Church after Vatican II because they did not like the Novus Ordo. They lost their Jesus so to speak. Some never found Him again, if in fact they had ever possessed Him in the first place. He is not a ritual. The fault was not in the ritual but the focus of the people. The ritual itself is a tool for worship and not a foundation for faith and people spend way way too much energy thinking about ritual rather than substance.

You make an important distinction, one also made by Cardinal Dulles: “the form in which the Holy Sacrifice is cloaked.”

 

[puzzleannie]

I am somewhat puzzled by the tendency in this discussion by some posters to equate the presence or absence of icons with the validity and beauty of Eastern Rite liturgies. that is like saying the validity and/or beauty of the NO or TLM is affected by the presence or absence of statues or stained glass windows. Surely those artistic expressions are peripheral to the Eucharist itself.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

even the rosary did not escape some new innovation (i.e. Luminous mysteries…isn’t it funny that the same pope who felt the rosary needed new mysteries never DID consecrate Russia like Our Lady asked, ahem…)

You know better than Pope John Paul the Great and Sister Lucia? Another “arm chair pope!” Honestly.

 

[Image_of_God]

Say, this analogy and does not necessarily apply to me. And I don’t want to get off topic but I would like it to be answered.

If an Easterner wants to stay Eastern, yet he feels that God wants him to be Western, yet he really wants to stay Eastern, what should he do?

How about vice versa?

 

[Image_of_God]

I have noticed this before too. I think it’s kind of a self-hating trend we seem to have in the west. For example, in America we have begun to ignore our great past and cultural heritage in a misguided attempt to be multicultural. It IS quite odd that the post-conciliar church has been so adamant that the Eastern rites return to their traditions, while at the same time we have pretty much abandoned all of our own traditions or “tweaked” them somehow to “renew them” or “give them fresh life”: the Mass, the sacraments, traditional customs, architecture, art, music…even the rosary did not escape some new innovation (i.e. Luminous mysteries…isn’t it funny that the same pope who felt the rosary needed new mysteries never DID consecrate Russia like Our Lady asked, ahem…)
Personally, I think icons are rather unattractive and the only thing that makes me more sick than seeing Latin rite churches take out their statues is when Latin rite statues take out their statues to replace them with icons.

**Please Easterners, forgive him. For he does not understand the Eastern Rites.**This is due to, I think, his ignorance, not necessaril a full blown anti-Eastern perspective.

To a degree, only partly can I understand him. But he is wrong. The Roman Catholic Church is NOT competing with the Eastern Churches, they are in this together. Icons were used by the Western Church even before the Schism.

However, I think that most Roman Catholics like their own liturgies in a way that is different than that of the Easterners. Roman Catholics, for the most part see the beauty of the Mass in a different way, and I think that is why the Roman Rite is still as large as it is. Simplicity is not as bad a what is thought.

 

[Anima_Christi]

I’ve attended the liturgy of the Byzantine rite. I appreciated it, I suppose, because I know it confected the Holy Sacrifice and it’s how a great number of our brothers and sisters worship. I didn’t “love” it, though. I much prefer the noble simplicity of a NO Mass reverently celebrated (when you compare the Eastern Liturgy and the TLM, I think even the TLM is more “simple” or spare). So I have to agree with PuzzleAnnie (up to a point: I don’t despise the TLM, but I grown increasingly suspicious of It, I regret to say, since so many of it’s proponents cannot praise it without damning the NO, and behave in an arrogant manner regarding the authority of the Church to regulate her sacraments, basically making themselves little “arm-chair” popes. I have to make an increasingly conscious effort to seperate the Tridentine Mass from some of its proponents. They aren’t doing this venerable rite any favors by their words and attitudes).

You might also enjoy the “noble simplicity” of a Lutheran service more than an authentically Catholic Mass; that’s basically what the Novus Ordo is–a Lutheran-style order of service with a (usually) valid Eucharist.

 

[Anima_Christi]

You know better than Pope John Paul the Great and Sister Lucia? Another “arm chair pope!” Honestly.

Pope John Paul “the Great” knows better than Our Lady who specifically asked that Russia be consecrated? Another neo-catholic with an exaggerated view of infallibility and a false obedience!

 

[Image_of_God]

You might also enjoy the “noble simplicity” of a Lutheran service more than an authentically Catholic Mass; that’s basically what the Novus Ordo is–a Lutheran-style order of service with a (usually) valid Eucharist.

Please repent of what you said earlier about icons, for I’m sure it is demenaded of you.

I don’t think that the the abuse in the Latin Mass will last much longer. The slow traditionalization of the Mass has already begun, although, I don’t think it will be a Tridentine Mass.

 

[Image_of_God]

Pope John Paul “the Great” knows better than Our Lady who specifically asked that Russia be consecrated? Another neo-catholic with an exaggerated view of infallibility and a false obedience!

I can sense your anger. I hope you are not thinking about joining those SSPX groups. Pm me if you are having any difficulty.

 

[Anima_Christi]

I don’t despise the TLM, but I grown increasingly suspicious of It, I regret to say, since so many of it’s proponents cannot praise it without damning the NO, and behave in an arrogant manner regarding the authority of the Church to regulate her sacraments, basically making themselves little “arm-chair” popes. I have to make an increasingly conscious effort to seperate the Tridentine Mass from some of its proponents. They aren’t doing this venerable rite any favors by their words and attitudes).

WOW. Suspicious of the very Mass that grew out of centuries of organic development, has produced THOUSANDS of holy saints, was codified by the holy Council of Trent to combat the errors of Protestantism!? What a shame.
I’ll tell you what I am suspicious of: a “Mass” that was created by a committee headed by a notorious Archbishop and possibly Freemason, was designed to not offend Protestants and was even created with the help of six Protestant ministers, that drops nearly every reference to sacrifice, has no references to the Blessed Trinity, has seen the loss of faith and decline in Mass attendance of millions of Catholics…

 

[Anima_Christi]

Please repent of what you said earlier about icons, for I’m sure it is demenaded of you.

I don’t think that the the abuse in the Latin Mass will last much longer. The slow traditionalization of the Mass has already begun, although, I don’t think it will be a Tridentine Mass.

I’m not interested in fancying-up the Novus Ordo–I just want the Ancient Mass back. A Lutheran or Anglican service can be celebrated beautifully too. A Novus Ordo can be celebrated in Latin in a splendid cathedral with incense and vestments and Gregorian chant…it makes not difference. I would still choose the Mass of all Time celebrated on the back of an army jeep in the middle of a field in the crudest of surroundings (as has often been the case in war time) over the artificial, protestantized Novus Ordo liturgy. You can put lipstick on a pig…

 

[yeshua]

There is too much resentment and an unwillingness to understand on this thread from my fellow Catholics. Image, my brother, thank you for speaking out, and I know you do not condone such things.

I am not a Westerner yet I do understand some of the bitterness. Do not let the reforms of Vatican II, for this is what you disagree with, lead you to attack the East for somehow “invading” current liturgical trends.

My church, the Maronite Church, has undergone extreme Latinization. Aspects of our church have been removed and substituted with Latin traditions for centuries and it occurs substantially today. This does not undermine the validity or richness of the Latin Tradition, despite the bitterness that can arise from seeing such changes sometimes forced on us. Please treat the Eastern traditions with respect as we know fully well what it is like to have traditions being replaced, yet in this case, it is a return to old traditions for you my Roman brothers. Whether you agree with it or not is your opinion, but please do not lambast Eastern traditions because they might surface in a few parishes; we are Catholics, it doesn’t matter the rite, they are all our traditions.

Peace and God Bless

 

[Anima_Christi]

I can sense your anger. I hope you are not thinking about joining those SSPX groups. Pm me if you are having any difficulty.

Actually I would have no problem attending an SSPX church if I lived near one. I think they have preserved the one true Catholic faith, apart from which is no salvation, in this age of apostasy and crisis. I that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre is a modern-day Athanasius and that he and the Society of St. Pius X will be vindicated one day.

 

[Image_of_God]

Actually I would have no problem attending an SSPX church if I lived near one. I think they have preserved the one true Catholic faith, apart from which is no salvation, in this age of apostasy and crisis. I that Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre is a modern-day Athanasius and that he and the Society of St. Pius X will be vindicated one day.

How did I know…
SSPX is not the true faith. St. Jerome and St. Gregory the Great warned against people who would produce schism and not listen to the Holy See! The SSPX is a schismatic group and God is not happy that they broke away from the Apostolic Roman See over the Mass. He is not a modern day Antanasius. Anthanasius defend against schism, Lefebvre cause it. It has been warned about…those who produce schism. We have been warned!

You are angry. Pleazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzze come and talk to me about what you are angry about. This route is not only foolish, but not uncommon.

 

[Image_of_God]

Just a little note:

Contrary to what was commonly thought, Vatican II actually did not call for the huge changes in the Mass. I am guessing the liberals where unhappy at what happened…the fact that the Vatican II did not give into modernism…that they pressurized Pope Paul IV to change the Mass. I pray that I never take part in liberlist activities. The Church shall never modernize for the sake of liberals.

 

[StMarkEofE]

Just a little note:

Contrary to what was commonly thought, Vatican II actually did not call for the huge changes in the Mass. I am guessing the liberals where unhappy at what happened…the fact that the Vatican II did not give into modernism…that they pressurized Pope Paul IV to change the Mass. I pray that I never take part in liberlist activities. The Church shall never modernize for the sake of liberals.

Shouldnt this worry the Catholic hierarchy in general that some liberal influences within the Catholic operations can have so profound results in the debilitating factors in the Mass not to mention the actual belief system in the Roman Catholic church. There must have been a nested negative influence already imbedded into the Roman church because the changes came with such gusto and spontaity that would astonish the most tradtional of Roman Catholics.

 

[Image_of_God]

Shouldnt this worry the Catholic hierarchy in general that some liberal influences within the Catholic operations can have so profound results in the debilitating factors in the Mass not to mention the actual belief system in the Roman Catholic church. There must have been a nested negative influence already imbedded into the Roman church because the changes came with such gusto and spontaity that would astonish the most tradtional of Roman Catholics.

Yes, it has, it certainly has astounded the current Pope, Benedict. But there is no way to counter the Liberalism. It does worry the Catholic leaders, after all, the bishops of France and the U.S. are quite liberal. It amazes me how liberal priests and bishops continue to attempt to tear apart the Church, yet they will not succeed.
There really is nothing the Catholic Church can do. However, there has been an increased orthodoxy in the JPII generation of things. The liberalist have not yet touch the doctrines of the Church, and they are mad because the Catholic Church won’t allow contraception and abortion. They are mad that the Catholic Church won’t allow the modernism they are looking for. But the fires of hell have not prevailed against the Church, nor will it ever. I hear that Benedict is actually orthodoxizing the NO Mass.

 

[jbuck919]

Eastern liturgies have nothing that corresponds to the Low Mass. If they can’t celebrate what in the West would be the equivalent of at least a high if not a solemn Mass, they don’t do it at all. If Eastern liturgies were a matter of a man and a boy moving from side to side with their back to us mumbling incomprehensibilities, we would not find them attractive, and if the Traditional Latin Mass had been celebrated in splendor on a regular basis at the parish level as it was intended, it would never have been abandoned.