Why does evil/sin exist?

[Tomster]

Hello all, any chance we could get back on track?

I’m still looking for an answer to my original question i.e. Why are we all born with original sin?

Is original sin an encumberance or is it simply a lack of God’s grace? Why does our proclivity to sin exist after baptism? Why can’t we all be like Mary, full of grace and sinless?

God bless,
Noel.

Adam was put into the supernatural order and enriched with many gifts, with sanctifying grace, integrity, and potential or conditional immortality. By his sin he lost all these and, though he repented and recovered grace, it is Catholic teaching that, as a result of his sin, all men, except Jesus Christ and his blessed mother, are born without these gifts, which, but for Adam’s sin, they would have possessed, born, therefore subject to death and concupiscence, and deprived of grace.

This condition in which we are born is contrary to God’s primary intention with regard to man, it is a state of privation, and, considered in its totality, is called the state of fallen nature or of original sin. It is clear that all the elements of this state are not of equal importance, or equally pertinent to the essential constitution of original sin. Refer to Romans 5:12-21.

 

[nkelly]

Adam was put into the supernatural order and enriched with many gifts, with sanctifying grace, integrity, and potential or conditional immortality. By his sin he lost all these and, though he repented and recovered grace, it is Catholic teaching that, as a result of his sin, all men, except Jesus Christ and his blessed mother, are born without these gifts, which, but for Adam’s sin, they would have possessed, born, therefore subject to death and concupiscence, and deprived of grace.

This condition in which we are born is contrary to God’s primary intention with regard to man, it is a state of privation, and, considered in its totality, is called the state of fallen nature or of original sin. It is clear that all the elements of this state are not of equal importance, or equally pertinent to the essential constitution of original sin. Refer to Romans 5:12-21.

Thanks Tomster, I understand why Adam lost God’s grace but why are we punished for Adam’s sin? Does the Church understand why we inherited original sin? I don’t see how it could be related to free will on our part because it was Adam’s sin, not ours.

I think we agree that original sin is a privation of grace rather than a something we’ve been burdened with?

Original sin doesn’t seem so unfair if the former is the case.

God bless,
Noel.

 

[YinYangMom]

…I understand why Adam lost God’s grace but why are we punished for Adam’s sin? Does the Church understand why we inherited original sin? I don’t see how it could be related to free will on our part because it was Adam’s sin, not ours…

I’m going to toss in two sources of insight:

The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware

and

Naked Without Shame: A Crash Course in the Theology of the Body audio CDs by Christopher West

I cited the pertinent information from The Orthodox Way here (at post #111) when a similar discussion was taking place about Original Sin back in the fall of 2006. That was a good discussion. You might want to browse through the thread.

As for Naked Without Shame, the reason that comes to mind is because of the way Christopher West explains the concept of driving around in flat tires. It’s in the first of the 10 cds, but basically he explains that when God created the world everyone was driving around on fully inflated tires. Eve and Adam sinned (I like to put Eve first since she’s the one who ate the apple first. I never did understand why they keep calling it ‘Adam’s sin’) and the air was taken out of their tires. Since then, everyone born into the world comes with underinflated tires. We go around thinking this is ‘normal’ but it isn’t. When we are baptized our tires are inflated and we finally realize the way things were supposed to be all along.

I don’t think it’s so much that we all pay the price for Eve’s sin as much as Eve’s sin changed the order of our world such that everyone born into it after she ate the apple comes into a tainted world. That pretty much coincides with The Orthodox Way, if I recall correctly (it was a while ago).

Hope that helps.

 

[Pax_Tibi]

It seems that many people are baffled by the idea of Original Sin. Especially me.
Periodically I come up with “off the wall” ideas to explain it to myself. This is the current one.

We are Angels (Souls), but we are the ones who followed Lucifer. (Original Sin).
We all chose to reject God and thereby chose to be banished from the Beatific Vision. (In the prayer “The Hail Holy Queen”, we are referred to as the “poor banished children of Eve”.) Therefore, we cannot lay OS on our “original parents”. We are each culpable.

God’s plan was to give the angels a second chance by becoming one of us and personally showing how we can re-unite with the Father. His plan was creation, the universe
the planet earth and humankind. Creation is where God cast Lucifer. Jesus refers to Lucifer as the prince of this world.

Mary, an “unfallen angel”, volunteered to be the vehicle for God to enter into his creation. Mary did not commit the original sin, maybe that could explain the “Immaculate Conception” as well.

I have wondered why God would create two types of beings with free will anyway.

Just some wild thoughts!

Thanks,

I’m sorry to repeat this but I didn’t have the time to state it again in more acceptable form.

Was Adam and Eve’s sin the same as Lucifer’s?
If so, does that mean that some of God’s creation (angels, humans if they’re not the same), will always reject him?

If He has created other life forms in other galaxies, some will reject him? Is this a given? If its called free will, I’ve answered my own question. Does that mean that by creation, God knows that some will reject Him and be damned? Why would He create, so that some would be damned? Why repeat what He has already done?

I think, as I’ve stated above and in other posts, that God created conscious beings, angels, souls, us (one and the same) ONCE ! God has given the original and only conscious beings a second chance. The second chance is the universe. In our case currently, planet Earth.

Why does evil/sin exist? All it is, is the rejection of good (God). We are the reason it exists.

Thanks.

 

[Tomster]

Thanks Tomster, I understand why Adam lost God’s grace but why are we punished for Adam’s sin? Does the Church understand why we inherited original sin? I don’t see how it could be related to free will on our part because it was Adam’s sin, not ours.

I think we agree that original sin is a privation of grace rather than a something we’ve been burdened with?

Original sin doesn’t seem so unfair if the former is the case.

God bless,
Noel.

The first sin of Adam, tragic in its consequences for him, is tremendous in its effect upon us; for his sin is our sin too. All men who are naturally born receive their nature from Adam, the fountainhead of the human race; and together with that nature they inherit his sin. We cannot inherit his wilfulness, we cannot inherit his responsibility, but we inherit the state of sin which he induced by his sinful act.

God had designed that the natural means which he had instituted for the propagation of the human race should fill the earth with men who, from the first moment of their existence, would be endowed with grace and integrity; they were to be born men, yet immortal sons of God. The supernatural and preternatural gifts were to be attatched to man’s nature as a specific human property, so that to be a man would involve - by God’s bounty - being also the adopted son of God. Of all these precious gifts Adam, by his sin, despoiled his nature, and in that state of privation he transmitted it to us. We have lost nothing of the essentials of our nature; we have lost gratuitous privileges. But the lack of grace means a state of sin, a state of enmity with God. For man, destined to a supernatural end, constituted from the beginning in the state of “original justice,” to be without that supernatural rectitude which should be his normal condition, is to be in the state of “original sin.”

If all men must die, it is because Adam, by his sin, forfeited for himself and for us the gift of bodily immortality; if man is condemned to a painful and laborious existence, if in his search after truth he is hampered by error and discouraged by ignorance, if his will is in conflict with inordinate desires, if, with St. Paul (Romans 7: 23-25), he sees another law in his members fighting against the law of his mind, if “concupiscence,” child and father of sin (James 1: 14-15), is the lot of all men in their daily lives - all this is due to that first sin which brought death and sorrow to mankind. “Unhappy man that I am,” cries St. Paul, “who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

The answer comes as a joyous echo: “The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Pax

 

[YinYangMom]

Was Adam and Eve’s sin the same as Lucifer’s?

In essence, yes. Lucifer rejected God’s plan. He chose to be cast from heaven rather than stick around as man took a higher place in heaven than him.

Eve and Adam rejected God’s plan for them. They chose to eat of the fruit which God specifically told them not to eat, thus rejecting the notion that they are not equal to God.

If so, does that mean that some of God’s creation (angels, humans if they’re not the same), will always reject him?

No. It only means those of God’s creation who possess free will will always have the opportunity to reject Him.

If He has created other life forms in other galaxies, some will reject him? Is this a given?

Only if they were given the gift of free will from God, their creator.

If its called free will, I’ve answered my own question. Does that mean that by creation, God knows that some will reject Him and be damned?

Well that’s one of those great mysteries and paradoxes because God is omniscient and not constrained by time or space so yeah, He knows who will reject Him, and supposedly who’s damned.

However, God is love and where there is love there is hope. There are many scripture stories and stories of the saints where we learn that God provides the means by which each and every one of his creatures can be redeemed, should they choose to accept His gifts. In our own daily lives we can find what some call ‘happenstance’ or ‘coincidence’ events whereby a person, place or thing, for some unknown reason, moves us to divert ever so slightly (or sometimes 180 degrees) from the path we intended to take, only to find that by veering off that path our life is changed. I think this is what we call ‘Divine Providence’…the hand of God working to nudge us toward the path closest to Him despite our willful intent to try to ignore Him.

Why would He create, so that some would be damned?

He creates out of love for us. Love is meant to be poured out, not contained.

Why repeat what He has already done?

I don’t understand the question. What did he already do that you think is being repeated?

I think, as I’ve stated above and in other posts, that God created conscious beings, angels, souls, us (one and the same) ONCE ! God has given the original and only conscious beings a second chance. The second chance is the universe. In our case currently, planet Earth.

He certainly created this universe we’ve come to know ONCE. But we humans and these galaxies are not finite objects. You and I are still being created with every breath we take, with every thought which comes into our minds, with every emotion evoked within us. The planet is still growing (and dying, yes), but the point is it is an ongoing process. He’s not done with any of it yet.

Why does evil/sin exist? All it is, is the rejection of good (God). We are the reason it exists.

I agree we are the reason it continues to exist, but I do not believe it is ‘just’ the rejection of good.

Remember that Satan manifested himself as a serpent to plant the seed of doubt into Eve’s mind. She and Adam did not turn from God all by themselves, they were manipulated into it.

So, evil, manifested and manipulated by Satan and his minions, is a force to be reckoned with for certain. That aspect of evil is not just you and me rejecting God, it really is other forces actively working to pull you and me away from God. The same forces which will, until the end of this time, continue to gnaw away at the Catholic Church from within and without.

 

[Hipster_Doofus]

I don’t think any of the preceding comments answer the question about original sin.

I know God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the fruit they would surely die. But did He sit them down and explain to them the big picture–just how much trouble they would cause for their descendants for millenia? Did He explain to those two, who really had very little in the way of background knowledge, what they were getting into?

And I still don’t understand how and why we, if we indeed have free will, are born condemned and bearing the punishment of original sin, how you can be guilty of committing a sin before you even are capable of thinking beyond basic concepts like “hungry,”“sleepy,” and “Mommy.”

I’m well aware of what God did for us afterwards. I’m just unclear why we found ourselves in that situation in the first place.

If evil existed before Adam and Eve, as Yin Yang Mom suggests, if it was not the product of their disobedience, then what does that do to the argument that evil is of human origin, an offshoot of our free will?

 

[YinYangMom]

I don’t think any of the preceding comments answer the question about original sin.

I know God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the fruit they would surely die. But did He sit them down and explain to them the big picture–just how much trouble they would cause for their descendants for millenia? Did He explain to those two, who really had very little in the way of background knowledge, what they were getting into?

He didn’t need to paint the bigger picture. I think the point of all that is to realize that it is not for us to question why God asks what He does of us, but rather to obey in trust, knowing with confidence, that whatever He asks is in our best interest.

Suspicion is the devil’s tool. We never have a reason to suspect God would ever ask us to do something which would harm us - look at the story of Jacob and Issac - that was the obedience God expected from Adam and Eve.

And I still don’t understand how and why we, if we indeed have free will, are born condemned and bearing the punishment of original sin, how you can be guilty of committing a sin before you even are capable of thinking beyond basic concepts like “hungry,”“sleepy,” and “Mommy.”

Original sin is different from the sins we knowingly commit. Adam and Eve’s sin skewed the world as they knew it to become the world as we know it. One can’t unring the bell, but that’s why God provided a means for man to be free from original sin…and at a tremendous price He Himself was willing to pay! Do not despair in being born into original sin because God also gave us the means to cleanse ourselves of Adam and Eve’s sin.

I’m well aware of what God did for us afterwards. I’m just unclear why we found ourselves in that situation in the first place.

Again, the world those born of Adam and Eve entered into was a different one than the one they were given. We found ourselves in the situation because of Adam and Eve’s decision to disobey God’s teaching.

If evil existed before Adam and Eve, as Yin Yang Mom suggests, if it was not the product of their disobedience, then what does that do to the argument that evil is of human origin, an offshoot of our free will?

The evil Lucifer succumbed to was still disobedience. His action resulted in Hell being created, it affected that realm of existence.

Adam and Eve’s disobedience affected our realm of existence - the universe as we know and experience. The evil present in this world was brought into it through Adam and Eve (they opened Pandora’s box).

God tried to keep evil from entering our realm by containing it in the tree of knowledge, it seems. It should have been enough for Him to clearly state to man that eating of the fruit would lead to death, but it wasn’t, because Satan did his best to share his misery with God’s favored creation. Remember that it was because man was destined to be the favored creation - even over the angels - that Lucifer rebelled in the first place.

 

[daniel_g]

Why would Lucifer rebel in the first place? If he had free will to act how could he chose evil, if all that existed before was good? Where was the spark that ignited evil?

The sin of Adam can be traced to his free will to disobey because of the coaxing of the serpent. How then could Lucifer have been coaxed if evil was not present? How could Lucifer reject God if nothing but good existed then whence did evil come?

Does this have an answer? My friend and I began talking about this, but we couldn’t explain it. I’m just confused.

 

[nkelly]

Why would Lucifer rebel in the first place? If he had free will to act how could he chose evil, if all that existed before was good? Where was the spark that ignited evil?

The sin of Adam can be traced to his free will to disobey because of the coaxing of the serpent. How then could Lucifer have been coaxed if evil was not present? How could Lucifer reject God if nothing but good existed then whence did evil come?

Does this have an answer? My friend and I began talking about this, but we couldn’t explain it. I’m just confused.

Lucifer was in the fortunate position of being able to see God face-to-Face. He could see God’s infinite perfections and Heavenly Glory. His rebellion against God was unforgivable because he knows how holy God is and what it really means to sin. I’ve heard it said that God see imperfections even in the angels.

I think the basic answer is that all goodness comes from God and that free will allows our will’s to contradict God’s will. The same applied to Lucifer. God can’t be a loving God if he forces us to be good and love Him. It has to be our will to love Him.

God bless,
Noel.

 

[nkelly]

Remember that it was because man was destined to be the favored creation - even over the angels - that Lucifer rebelled in the first place.

Hello YYM, are you referring here to the coronation of Mary Queen of
all the angels and saints (and us)?

God bless,
Noel.

 

[YinYangMom]

Hello YYM, are you referring here to the coronation of Mary Queen of
all the angels and saints (and us)?

God bless,
Noel.

I don’t have the scriptural reference for that position. I just recall hearing it from several priests on Relevant Radio and in other talks about the Fall (probably Fr. Richards, Fr. Corapi and that other priest with the Australian accent whose sermons are aired on the radio - Kelly??).

I remember reading something from one of the many Catholic websites, too, that told the story of the fall of Lucifer. Maybe I could hunt that one down.

The bottom line I recall was that unlike humans, angels are able to see and comprehend all the ramifications of every choice they make. Humans, with limited brain capacity, evolve into their knowledge and understanding of God’s role for them in this lifetime. Man says no to God’s plan based upon the information he has before him at any given time. Not being able to foresee the ramifications of the decision man gives it his best shot and hopes he made the right choice. This is why God is merciful on us, He knows he made us with limitations so He judges us fairly.

Angels have all the information they’d ever need in order to choose their paths wisely, and that includes knowing all the consequences of saying no. Lucifer, seeing where man was to rank in the long run, couldn’t accept this. Apparently he was too proud to serve glorified man and so he said ‘No’ to God’s plan, even though he knew doing so would separate him from God for the rest of eternity. God could not show mercy to the rebellious angels because they did have full knowledge of the consequences of their actions when they exercised their free will in that manner.

I’m still perplexed as to how pride entered into the heavens like that - to affect Lucifer that way - and I’m also kinda dismayed that he was able to get a third of the angels to agree with him. It saddens me, really. But mostly it confuses me because until I had heard this version of the fall of the angels I thought evil (pride) stemmed from Satan, that he brought it into the world. Apparently pride existed long before our universe was created.

Yet, pride is not necessarily a bad thing, come to think of it. Surely the angels have always been proud to be angels in service to God in the heavens. Surely God is proud (if that’s even possible) of all that he has created. Certainly he is proud of his son and of Mary for her trust in Him, He pretty muched said so at Jesus’ baptism. I guess that goes back to how God created everything good but it is our free will which can turn any good into an evil. Apparently that’s what happened with Lucifer.