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tonyrey
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Suffering is only evil if it is inflicted unnecessarily.
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Hokomai
Guest
Well, so you say. But I imagine it does not feel that way to the billions of animals who have died as a result of natural disaster, and the evolution of systems which require them to die. Surely an all-loving and omnipotent God would have designed things in a different way?
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tonyrey
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Hokomai
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I imagine an all-loving and all-powerful God could have designed world in which pain experienced by individual animals was always offset by an equivalent pleasure, or in which pain did not occur at all. Creating a single set of immortal animals which did not have offspring would be one simple mechanism. But you see I am not the all-powerful one. And given that the Church retreats behind “It’s a mystery” for so many of its basic beliefs, it seems hardly fair for you to require me to explain how an all-powerful god(s) can do anything.
meltzerboy
New member
I have inside information that all animals go to heaven, so no need to worry.
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catholictiger
Guest
animals don’t have immortal souls so they don’t go to heaven, and have no after life. But even what we may see as suffering or evil done to animals is actually a good (with the exception of humans doing evil to animals) because God created them for a purpose and their purpose may look to us like an evil, but it isn’t. Only reason that we see this thing as an evil is because of our own fallen state we can’t see their purpose in their perfection.
the same goes with natural evils, there isn’t actually such thing as a natural evil, if you view evil as privation of good, because God creates the natural events and there is no evil in God. So we see natural evils not because of the privation of the good in that natural event but rather the privation of that good in our view of the natural event.
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Hokomai
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This is where words’ meanings begin to slide around. I am saying that the experience of pain by an animal is part of the evil we see around us. You are saying that pain does not equate with evil. But how can pain, with no commensurate benefit for the individual creature, be anything but evil? If your answer is, “it can’t be, because an all-loving and all powerful god9s) designed it that way”, you have argued in a circle.
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catholictiger
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go back to page one see my post on lights and darks and that is my response to this question
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Hokomai
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Thanks. I had seen your post and have now read it again. To understand the way it applies to what I have been saying, you will have to tell me if you agree that the suffering of innocent (by definition) animals is evil. If not, you should say why it is not evil, since on the face of it the individuals suffer through no fault of their own, and have no hope of any commensurate pleasure in this or a later life. If you say yes, you should explain why an all-loving and all-powerful God would design such a system. Your simile of pointillism does not provide an explanation. It simply says that there must be an explanation, and it must be a good one, because good is good and all-powerful. We go around the circle again.
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catholictiger
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the suffering in itself isn’t an evil, the act that may have brought on that suffering may be an evil but not the suffering itself. If suffering is evil than Christ’s suffering was evil, and Christians see his suffering and death as the greatest of all goods. So the animals suffering, or an animal going through suffering is happening so that a greater good may come out of it.
when we suffer we participate in the suffering of Jesus Christ. Suffering isn’t an evil, I would even say its the same for animals even though they don’t have immortal souls, and no good would come out of that suffering for them, but some good may come out of it for others.
and it shouldn’t be the perfect explanation because I don’t think we can EVER be able to fully resolve the problem of evil. This theory of mine (well augustine’s theory) allows me to better understand why evil may happen, but I would image for most people it would be difficult to rap their heads around the idea that God would allow something like the Jewish Holocaust to happen in order for there to be this beautiful work of art we call God’s creation.
But as far as the explanation goes I think my analogy is part of it, it would explain why God would let this certain evil happen. If he didn’t then there may not be the color of blue in the eye of the little boy which could have a deep meaning in the painting God is painting. Therefore without the evil occurring the world would actually be a better place.
but lets take your animal suffering example for a second. Lets say you have a dog and she comes down with a bad illness that may kill him/her but will be a slow death, if they don’t put the dog down. We may say how could God let something like this happen, well maybe the family will come closer together because of this situation, there may be some keep wounds in the family that may start to heal because of this situation. Maybe even start to bring life and death into the minds of these people and bring them back to confession and back into relationship with Christ.
when we take all of the evil acts and put it up against the resulting good that evil act brought about there will be more good than evil. Just like There is more white in this post, than black letters. Or in the painting of a sun set, the beautiful light of the sun is more clear and overwhelming then the darks of the ocean and maybe the darks of the dark sides of the clouds.
Evil brings about good, God allows evil to happen to bring about more good then possible without that evil.
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Hokomai
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So what would be the good that came from the sufferring of hundreds/thousands/millions/billions/trillions of trillions of creatures on this planet before human beings evolved? (Given that an all-powerful God could have instead just created a new world for people, and assuming I am not speaking to a young-earth creationist.)
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catholictiger
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there was no evil before human beings existed
but for the suffering yes good was brought out of it, or to say it another way every single thing before humans came into the picture achieved the end it was designed for which makes their existence perfect. Its like what is the end of an arrow that was shot from a bow. to hit the bullseye. If the arrow hits the bullseye it has achieved its perfect end. What I’m saying no matter what those creates went through they all achieved the end it was designed for by the perfect creator.
and no I’m not a young-earth creationist.
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Hokomai
Guest
So the pain they went through with nothing to compensate is just? Loving? How? And why was it not evil?
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catholictiger
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first of all animals don’t have immortal souls and where created for our sake, God doesn’t have to love them, doesn’t have to be just to them.
but something that isn’t intelligent can’t work towards an end, I would say a lot of animals aren’t intelligent and actually you could argue that humans are intelligent enough to work towards a universal end like we do but I think we could work to an end without a creator. But things in the world work towards an end that are unintelligent mainly bringing humans into the world. So the Sun has worked towards its perfect end (well it is working towards it) the supernova that jump started our solar system worked for its perfect end. Animals worked towards their perfect end. They have to because God created them and they have no free will, only things that don’t have free will can not work towards their perfect end.
this is probably going to be something you can’t rap your head around, think over it and maybe you see where I’m trying to get, maybe someone else can give a better explanation. I have a lot of drive to do today so I can’t talk.
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fred_conty
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You mean like animals can’t go to hell, so draw your own conclusions.
Just a ha-ha.
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aragonjohn1
Guest
“sin brought evil into the world”
in God there is no darkness… He is light
Shalom
God Bless
in God there is no darkness… He is light
Shalom
God Bless
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Hokomai
Guest
How can this be? If God is ever not just, or not loving, then he is not all-loving, or all-just. are these not defining characteristics of the Christian God? Drive safely.
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Arturo_Ortiz
Guest
I will suggest to hear the interviewcwith mother Teresa.
This link shows you the first 5 minutes, you can probably see the rest in youtube.
ncregister.com/blog/matthew-archbold/mother-teresa-on-suffering
Mother teresa tells the interviewer that suffering means taking part in the passion in Christ. This is a sign that you are close to God’s heart. If you understand suffering then you can understand God.
A couple of weeks ago when I was in mass the priest brought up the theme of suffering and brought up the interview with mother Teresa as well. The priest gave a quote that Mother Teresa gave an interviewer when asked about suffering. The interviewer adked Mother Teresa why God doesn’t do anything about suffering and the evil in the world. Mother Teresa said " what do you mean he hadn’t done anything, he did do something" the interviewer then said what is it that he did? Mother Teresa said " he created you" " he created you to do something about the evil in the world"
This link shows you the first 5 minutes, you can probably see the rest in youtube.
ncregister.com/blog/matthew-archbold/mother-teresa-on-suffering
Mother teresa tells the interviewer that suffering means taking part in the passion in Christ. This is a sign that you are close to God’s heart. If you understand suffering then you can understand God.
A couple of weeks ago when I was in mass the priest brought up the theme of suffering and brought up the interview with mother Teresa as well. The priest gave a quote that Mother Teresa gave an interviewer when asked about suffering. The interviewer adked Mother Teresa why God doesn’t do anything about suffering and the evil in the world. Mother Teresa said " what do you mean he hadn’t done anything, he did do something" the interviewer then said what is it that he did? Mother Teresa said " he created you" " he created you to do something about the evil in the world"
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tonyrey
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Thereby making us wonder what the interviewer had done (and the rest of us into the bargain) compared to Mother Teresa…meltzerboy
New member
A very Jewish sentiment on Mother Teresa’s part in that Judaism believes that people are created for the purpose of healing the miseries in the world.
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