Why Does God Allow Suffering?

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Pray for me, I believe I’ve been struggling in my faith lately. I havent been to church in well over a couple of months now. I have an arrogant, prejudice, intollorant atheist friend who takes shots at my religion every time I sit with him. (I only sit with him to sit with my other friend.) Before I became religious, we had NO problems with each other. But every day he says something like, “Remember how God helped out when millions of JEWS died in the holocaust?” But I’m starting to feel he has a point. I mean, why does God allow such suffering? Why does he allow for retarded kids? Why does he allow for Africa to starve to death? I’m certainly not questioning my faith enough to ever leave it, but this does bother me a little bit. 😦
 
Pray for me, I believe I’ve been struggling in my faith lately. I havent been to church in well over a couple of months now. I have an arrogant, prejudice, intollorant atheist friend who takes shots at my religion every time I sit with him. (I only sit with him to sit with my other friend.) Before I became religious, we had NO problems with each other. But every day he says something like, “Remember how God helped out when millions of JEWS died in the holocaust?” But I’m starting to feel he has a point. I mean, why does God allow such suffering? Why does he allow for retarded kids? Why does he allow for Africa to starve to death? I’m certainly not questioning my faith enough to ever leave it, but this does bother me a little bit. 😦
Free will could be one a reason. And many served as an example to us (see 1 Corinthians 10:5-11). Does your atheist friend think that if those Jews died that way, they were worst sinners than him? The truth I tell you that if he doesn’t repent, he will die the same way or worse. Do you think that God created suffering? No, but men. First by disobeying God by eating the fruit which God forbid then and then by still disobeying Him.

As I said, if He would stop all this, you would be totally sure of His existence so you’d have no other choice but to serve Him. If you aren’t sure of His existence, you can choose to serve Him freely.

God also doesn’t bear the responsibility of men. Aren’t men supposed to take care of this Earth? Men are the ones to stop war, hunger etc. not God. Mankind thinks that God must do everything and that they should just sit all day, watch TV and complain… and this is not the purpose of man. His duty is obeying God’s Commandments. For not obeying them, he is what he is and the world is what it is.

Also, suffering and temptation is our test of faith. How can you know if what looks like gold is gold? By testing it through fire. How do you know if your faith is true faith? By testing is with sufferings, temptations, etc.
 
But every day he says something like, “Remember how God helped out when millions of JEWS died in the holocaust?” But I’m starting to feel he has a point. I mean, why does God allow such suffering? Why does he allow for retarded kids? Why does he allow for Africa to starve to death? I’m certainly not questioning my faith enough to ever leave it, but this does bother me a little bit. 😦
Ask him to explain how we can all be free to live as we choose and at the same time God constantly prevents us from inflicting suffering on others as a result of our selfishness, weakness and indifference to the plight of others.
 
Pray for me, I believe I’ve been struggling in my faith lately. I havent been to church in well over a couple of months now. I have an arrogant, prejudice, intollorant atheist friend who takes shots at my religion every time I sit with him. (I only sit with him to sit with my other friend.) Before I became religious, we had NO problems with each other. But every day he says something like, “Remember how God helped out when millions of JEWS died in the holocaust?” But I’m starting to feel he has a point. I mean, why does God allow such suffering? Why does he allow for retarded kids? Why does he allow for Africa to starve to death? I’m certainly not questioning my faith enough to ever leave it, but this does bother me a little bit. 😦
You will never get a good, logical, rational and meaningful answer this question, only evasive nonsense about “free will”, and whitewashing God’s responsibility.

God easily could have created a world without suffering, with free will and without sin at all. Or he could have created everyone into heaven - directly. Catholics believe that Mary was fully human, she was created without sin, and she chose not to sin. Therefore, God could have created everyone just like her.

I see that you are not Catholic, so this argument may not work for you. But I am sure you are aware of many good people, who have a good conscience, who see the right or wrong paths they could take, but always choose the right way. Nothing “mystical” or magical about that. Many of those people are not Christians, so obviously they do not “serve” God. (What a nonsensical idea is that God needs “servants”!)

And God must bear the whole responsibility for all the suffering, all the “sins”. When one has the knowledge and has the power to stop suffering, then it is his responsibility to act - provided of course that he wants to be called “loving” and “caring”.

You say that it “bothers you a little bit”. Let’s hope that it will bother you a lot… if you keep thinking about these questions. Of course, there is an easy way out, according to Billy Graham, who said: “my mind is made up, do not try to confuse me with facts”. His answer is unquestioning faith - chosen by many. Wishing you the best in your struggle toward the light from the eternal darkness of blind faith.
 
Ask him to explain how we can all be free to live as we choose and at the same time God constantly prevents us from inflicting suffering on others as a result of our selfishness, weakness and indifference to the plight of others.
The answer would be very simple: he could point to all those loving and caring people who do not wish to hurt anyone else, whose behavior would never need God’s intervention. 🙂 The good solution is always prevention, not later “tinkering” with an ill-conceived and badly executed “creation”.
 
Pray for me, I believe I’ve been struggling in my faith lately. I havent been to church in well over a couple of months now. I have an arrogant, prejudice, intollorant atheist friend who takes shots at my religion every time I sit with him. (I only sit with him to sit with my other friend.) Before I became religious, we had NO problems with each other. But every day he says something like, “Remember how God helped out when millions of JEWS died in the holocaust?” But I’m starting to feel he has a point. I mean, why does God allow such suffering? Why does he allow for retarded kids? Why does he allow for Africa to starve to death? I’m certainly not questioning my faith enough to ever leave it, but this does bother me a little bit. 😦
Welcome, MrZetterlund;

This forum is not the place to get answers to your serious questions. For one thing, many who answer are not Catholic or Christian. The best way to tell is to read how they answer the question, at the top, regarding what their Faith is. Those that do not answer with a specific Faith are here for one purpose only. They say they’re not here to convert, but, a quick perusal of their answers will convince you otherwise. We, as Catholics and Christians are not at liberty to return in kind. First, because we are Christians and, second, because we are expected to act like Christians.

I will send you some information on how to obtain a precious book, written by a Priest who’s sufferings are right up there with the worst of them. It is interesting to read how he has handled them.

God Bless,
jd
 
You will never get a good, logical, rational and meaningful answer this question, only evasive nonsense about “free will”, and whitewashing God’s responsibility.
Hmmm, first and foremost, free will doesn’t seem too nonsensical to me. I mean, i’m sure you and everyone else out there are pleased with the fact that we can chose what to eat for dinner each night, or what color shoes to wear, or what time to go to bed, or decide what kind of pet to own, or chose their own wife, to chose their own work, and the list goes on. Without such options we live a very robotic life. What fun is a robotic life? What joy do we get out of mindlessly doing anything and everything?! We also have the opportunity to chose what is right or wrong. Through my own experience, this is the best means by which a person can experience life through the senses. We feel good when we help others. We feel down when we are insulted by others. Simple examples, but they hold truth. And the same goes for when we serve God in HIS world.
God easily could have created a world without suffering, with free will and without sin at all. Or he could have created everyone into heaven - directly. Catholics believe that Mary was fully human, she was created without sin, and she chose not to sin. Therefore, God could have created everyone just like her.
You’re absolutely right Mary was born without sin and that she chose not to sin throughout her life (as Eve failed to do at the beginning of time when her pride overwhelmed her and she chose to disobey God) But the argument against Mary is that she lived a very human life! She suffered greatly, probably more than anyone on Earth today. She witnessed the persecution, torture, and death of her Son! A son that she knew to be God. She, like every human being, experienced great pain throughout life, but she also felt great joy! The wedding at Cana for example with the miracle of wine, I’m sure she was very pleased with her son. Or all the other miracles that Jesus did to make her proud to raise such a person. So you’re saying that if we were all created without sin, we would have lived a non-suffering life?? That is far from the truth. With great suffering comes great happiness. That can be said in this life and the next. We WILL suffer here on Earth, Christian or not, and the end result will be eternal suffering or eternal joy.

Now why wouldn’t God just create us into Heaven? First we have to answer the question as to why He created us on Earth. We were put here on Earth to simply show our love for God. Remember, the world that God originally created for us was free from sin, thus it was essentially a Heaven. And also, recall that we humans hold a special and unique position than any other being in the universe, including the angels. We may not be higher up than the angels, but we have more of God’s mercy and love at our fingertips. (I can find the Bible quote if i searched hard enough for anyone who doubts that…) With that said, God actually loves us more than he loves the ones in Heaven, because we are being tested each day and each moment, and when He sees us choosing His path, He is overwhelmed with great joy. Unlike those in Heaven, who already love and cherish Him. Think about it as your children. Are you pleased when your son obeys you? Are you dissatisfied when one disobeys? Now what about if we had robots running around doing your chores, playing games with you, or having sex for that matter… would you feel anything at all? Any feelings whatsoever? Or would you take that all for granted and lose interest? Free will is a crucial thing for satisfaction and joy, something that God experiences and something that we ALL experience. And most importantly, a gift from God. I also must say, that we humans cannot even fathom why God placed us here on Earth, all we can do is hold faith to what we know to be the facts.
I see that you are not Catholic, so this argument may not work for you. But I am sure you are aware of many good people, who have a good conscience, who see the right or wrong paths they could take, but always choose the right way. Nothing “mystical” or magical about that. Many of those people are not Christians, so obviously they do not “serve” God. (What a nonsensical idea is that God needs “servants”!)
I think i explained that quite clearly in the previous passages… Of course non-Christian people chose the “right” path, why? Because they are satisfied with the results! It makes them happy. Christian or not, we were ALL created in the image of God, thus, we all have the same feelings, emotions, and senses. And nope, you’re right, those people don’t serve God, and God will not serve them back in the afterlife. That is simply there loss, and a sad one at that. And lastly, as i also explained, sure God doesn’t “need” servants, He wants and desires servants! He is God, He can make the rules, and by doing so, He feels joy when His servants actually serve Him!
And God must bear the whole responsibility for all the suffering, all the “sins”. When one has the knowledge and has the power to stop suffering, then it is his responsibility to act - provided of course that he wants to be called “loving” and “caring”.
The thing is, He did stop all the suffering and sins, and His name was Jesus Christ. And the only way to find true and legitimate joy is through Jesus Christ! This does not mean we aren’t sinners nor does it mean we will not suffer any longer, it simply means that we are forgiven for our sins (through confession, a right granted by Jesus himself) and that we can now deal with our sufferings as Christ dealt with His. So do i believe that despite our sufferings God can be called “loving” and “caring”?? You bet!

Anyways, God bless, and keep the faith alive!
 
R Daneel,

How could God have made the world such that we have free will and there is no suffering?

Suffering is the inevitable result of our choices to sin. If we cannot sin, we don’t have free will.
 
But every day he says something like, “Remember how God helped out when millions of JEWS died in the holocaust?” But I’m starting to feel he has a point. I mean, why does God allow such suffering? Why does he allow for retarded kids? Why does he allow for Africa to starve to death?
Why is it that whenever something goes wrong in the world some people blame God, yet they do not give him credit for everything else? Is the atheist "friend’ acknowledging all the good that comes from God? It doesn’t really sound like it, rather he is trying to make you second guess your own beliefs because he has none of his own.

I too, believe in free will and with it, comes the suffering. Millions died in the holocaust not because God did nothing, but because people did nothing --or not enough to stop evil while some went along willingly. Why blame God?

God is not allowing Africans to starve to death, we all are if we do nothing.

We are all called to use our free will to do great things as well as small things, to solve problems, to find cures and answers. It is our job to pray, to seek solutions: not to just beg God to intervene and we do nothing.
 
R Daneel,

How could God have made the world such that we have free will and there is no suffering?

Suffering is the inevitable result of our choices to sin. If we cannot sin, we don’t have free will.
So very simple. The freedom to choose “evil” does not necessarily (as a logical necessity) lead to making that choice - it merely allows that possibility. I have never chosen to actively harm others, even though I thought about it. Does that fact deprive me of the freedom? God could simply decide not to create those who will go “astray” - and since you believe that God can foresee everyone’s actions, he could refrain from creating the “bad ones”. Where is the problem?
 
God easily could have created a world without suffering, with free will and without sin at all. Or he could have created everyone into heaven - directly. Catholics believe that Mary was fully human, she was created without sin, and she chose not to sin. Therefore, God could have created everyone just like her.
Yes, Catholics do believe that about Mary. But you failed to mention that we also believe that she could have sinned, but chose not to. As was mentioned in an earlier post, Eve unfortunately chose to disobey God, hence the first sin.

Nice try though, it is simply impossible for man (who is finite) to comprehend everything that is God (who is infinite). It is good to think about these mysteries, but they can not be rationalized by our human brains. When we try, we usually get it wrong, so it is better to just follow what He told us through Christ, and now through His Holy Church.
 
So very simple. The freedom to choose “evil” does not necessarily (as a logical necessity) lead to making that choice - it merely allows that possibility. I have never chosen to actively harm others, even though I thought about it. Does that fact deprive me of the freedom? God could simply decide not to create those who will go “astray” - and since you believe that God can foresee everyone’s actions, he could refrain from creating the “bad ones”. Where is the problem?
Do you really not see the contradiction in your own words.

Also, you say you have never chosen to actively harm others, what about passively? So is God now to not create people that would accidentally cause others to commit sin?
 
Hmmm, first and foremost, free will doesn’t seem too nonsensical to me.
The reference to free will is what is nonsensical. Read my other post above.
So you’re saying that if we were all created without sin, we would have lived a non-suffering life??
Absolutely. There would be no murders, rapes, wars, etc.
Now why wouldn’t God just create us into Heaven? First we have to answer the question as to why He created us on Earth. We were put here on Earth to simply show our love for God.
You mean, in heaven we shall not be able to show our love?
With that said, God actually loves us more than he loves the ones in Heaven, because we are being tested each day and each moment, and when He sees us choosing His path, He is overwhelmed with great joy.
This is wrong even as an allegory. Only an idiot would perfrom tests when he already knows the outcome.
And nope, you’re right, those people don’t serve God, and God will not serve them back in the afterlife.
Fortunately this is merely your assumption.
That is simply there loss, and a sad one at that. And lastly, as i also explained, sure God doesn’t “need” servants, He wants and desires servants! He is God, He can make the rules, and by doing so, He feels joy when His servants actually serve Him!
More assumptions. And nothing I could say about God could be as degrading as your words.
The thing is, He did stop all the suffering and sins, and His name was Jesus Christ.
Did he now? Maybe you could look out your window, and see all those “non-sufferings” of millions starving and being senselessly tortured.
 
Yes, Catholics do believe that about Mary. But you failed to mention that we also believe that she could have sinned, but chose not to.
That was the point. It is possible to have someone who is free and does not commit sin. A whole bunch of Mary-clones (not in the literal sense) would be a world without sin.
Nice try though, it is simply impossible for man (who is finite) to comprehend everything that is God (who is infinite). It is good to think about these mysteries, but they can not be rationalized by our human brains. When we try, we usually get it wrong, so it is better to just follow what He told us through Christ, and now through His Holy Church.
Oh yes. Let’s close our eyes and follow the Pied Piper… And no, these are not “mysteries”. Real mysteries were written by Agatha Christie. 🙂
 
So very simple. The freedom to choose “evil” does not necessarily (as a logical necessity) lead to making that choice - it merely allows that possibility. I have never chosen to actively harm others, even though I thought about it. Does that fact deprive me of the freedom? God could simply decide not to create those who will go “astray” - and since you believe that God can foresee everyone’s actions, he could refrain from creating the “bad ones”. Where is the problem?
*For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered over the desert.

Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.” We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.* (1 Corinthians 10:1-11)

As you see, God knew who will be good and who will be evil. But He let the evil live, so they may be an example for us. Some good people are good because they saw what the consequences of evil are. If He wouldn’t have let those people live someone else would have taken their places. So happened with the angels. He knew the angels that will fall, but He created them so they will be an example for the other angels. An angel could think for example, if God wouldn’t have created the evil angels: “Well, so far there are only warnings from God. We can’t know for sure what will happen or if He has the power to punish us, etc.” while if that angel saw what happened to his brothers his thoughts would be different: “I don’t want to sin, because I saw the end of those sinners, and I don’t want to share their fate”. As the Bible says: fearing God is the beginning of wisdom, and it is a true statement.

So not creating the evil could have serious consequences and it is very probable that some of the “good” ones will take their place.
 
Do you really not see the contradiction in your own words.
Show me that contradiction.
Also, you say you have never chosen to actively harm others, what about passively? So is God now to not create people that would accidentally cause others to commit sin?
Maybe I should have said: “actively and knowingly”. If I happened to cause harm accidently and unknowingly (out of ignorance) - that would not be sinful, would it?
 
Many people question how God can exist when there is so much suffering and bad stuff happening in this world.

Like many have said, it is not because of God that we have wars, pollution, etc. But because of man.

Then people question how God could allow this to happen.

Well, in my opinion, we wouldn’t know the difference between good and bad if we don’t make mistakes. The consequences, the suffering make us stronger and hopefully, make us stronger. The fact that we have pollution and a depleting ozone layer should cause us to take action to stop it. When we go to war with other countries, it should serve as a lesson. We should investigate and figure out what caused the war so that never has to happen again.

See a pattern? We cause pain and suffering to each other. God allows it to teach us a lesson and make us stronger and smarter. We cease the pain and suffering. God will allow that as well.
 
As you see, God knew who will be good and who will be evil. But He let the evil live, so they may be an example for us. Some good people are good because they saw what the consequences of evil are. If He wouldn’t have let those people live someone else would have taken their places. So happened with the angels. He knew the angels that will fall, but He created them so they will be an example for the other angels. An angel could think for example, if God wouldn’t have created the evil angels: “Well, so far there are only warnings from God. We can’t know for sure what will happen or if He has the power to punish us, etc.” while if that angel saw what happened to his brothers his thoughts would be different: “I don’t want to sin, because I saw the end of those sinners, and I don’t want to share their fate”. As the Bible says: fearing God is the beginning of wisdom, and it is a true statement.

So not creating the evil could have serious consequences and it is very probable that some of the “good” ones will take their place.
Probabilities do not count in the face of omnipotence. But there is a much deeper flaw in your reasoning - which is more of a rationalizing. You simply put the following principle into different words: “it is better to fall sick and to recover, than to stay healthy all the time - because otherwise you would not appreciate the recovery process”. Which is usually expressed as the “O felix culpa…” principle. Sheer rationalizing of the bad stuff. If some “good” things would come out of the “bad” things, it would still be better to be without both…
 
Probabilities do not count in the face of omnipotence. But there is a much deeper flaw in your reasoning - which is more of a rationalizing. You simply put the following principle into different words: “it is better to fall sick and to recover, than to stay healthy all the time - because otherwise you would not appreciate the recovery process”. Which is usually expressed as the “O felix culpa…” principle. Sheer rationalizing of the bad stuff. If some “good” things would come out of the “bad” things, it would still be better to be without both…
So you are saying that it would be better if you wouldn’t exist… I see.
 
Maybe I should have said: “actively and knowingly”. If I happened to cause harm accidently and unknowingly (out of ignorance) - that would not be sinful, would it?
It would not be sinful but it could still cause suffering. We are talking why God allows suffering. You said God (if He exists) could have created only those people that would not cause suffering, namely sin.

So using your reasoning, God would not create people that would Knowingly sin, but He would also not create people whose actions would cause other people to sin.

You contradict yourself when you say that God could create Man with the possibility to sin, but only create those that would not exercise that possibility. I do not think you understand the nature of Sin. God did not create Sin. Since God is Good, anything that goes against God is Evil. Sin is going against God. You are using the reasoning that IF all things are possible with God, then why did He not do this, that and the other thing. For me, I just accept (humbly) that I do not have the knowledge of God or the understanding of God, to fully comprehend what the Church calls a mystery. If you think that you can (or should be able to) understand the ways of God, then I am sorry, but you will only be disappointed. I believe in the Holy Word of God in the Bible, as He gave it to us, in His Son Jesus Christ, whom taught His Apostles, and in His Church which He founded. But it is not my eyes that are closed :rolleyes:
 
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