Why does God choose to remain hidden?

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Hi everyone,
Here’s a question that has puzzled me for a long time, it came up again recently as I was on a site where members are generally pretty antagonistic to the faith/God: one person posted, saying that since God hadn’t manifested himself in a powerful, convincing, for-everyone-to-behold kind of way in 2000 years, that was proof of his inexistence.

We gather from reading the book of Genesis that Adam enjoyed a pretty intimate relationship with God, that he could possibly see him with his natural eyes, the very least we can say is that it was not possible for Adam to doubt God’s existence, YET it was possible for Adam to know God existed beyond a shadow of a doubt (so being an atheist was not an option for him) AND disobey God’s commands. Therefore we can conclude that knowing for a fact (with undeniable,compelling proof) that God exists doesn’t nullify free-will. Seeing the Beatific Vision would, however, but this isn’t what this thread is about. So, is the fact that God remains hidden simply the consequence of the Fall and has, in fact, nothing to do with keeping our free-will intact?
 
We can only speculate.

My personal view is that there is just enough darkness to attract the dark-minded and just enough light to attract the light-minded. By choosing to withhold His glory He allows light to divide itself from darkness. Those who thirst for righteousness and those who thirst for power will either be attracted to Jesus or repelled by Him. I base this on scripture calling people children of darkness and children of light.

Maybe after separating light from darkness the new creation will begin, like this present world in Genises.
 
Robertanthony said:
Hi everyone,
Here’s a question that has puzzled me for a long time, it came up again recently as I was on a site where members are generally pretty antagonistic to the faith/God: one person posted, saying that since God hadn’t manifested himself in a powerful, convincing, for-everyone-to-behold kind of way in 2000 years, that was proof of his inexistence.

We gather from reading the book of Genesis that Adam enjoyed a pretty intimate relationship with God, that he could possibly see him with his natural eyes, the very least we can say is that it was not possible for Adam to doubt God’s existence, YET it was possible for Adam to know God existed beyond a shadow of a doubt (so being an atheist was not an option for him) AND disobey God’s commands. Therefore we can conclude that knowing for a fact (with undeniable,compelling proof) that God exists doesn’t nullify free-will. Seeing the Beatific Vision would, however, but this isn’t what this thread is about. So, is the fact that God remains hidden simply the consequence of the Fall and has, in fact, nothing to do with keeping our free-will intact?
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Lest we forget, in the second person of the Trinity, God became visible. He remains visible to us today in the Eucharist (to those with eyes of faith).
Satan temped Jesus to show himself in a powerful showy way. Jesus rejected this method.
 
davidv said:
Lest we forget, in the second person of the Trinity, God became visible. He remains visible to us today in the Eucharist (to those with eyes of faith).
Satan temped Jesus to show himself in a powerful showy way. Jesus rejected this method.
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Before the Fall, did God show himself in a powerful, showy way to Adam and Eve? Adam knew God existed because it was manifest, it was made manifest to him. I believe in the Eucharist, the Real Presence, but you can’t know that you know that you know that God exists from merely looking at a consecrated Host. God’s existence was simply part of what Adam knew naturally: he knew the sun was setting at the end of each day, he knew he was going to wake up the next morning and see it up again, he knew the person who had created him (God) existed simply from regularly conversing with him, or being instructed by God etc. etc.
 
Just look at everything around you. Where do you think all this came from?

As for Adam and Eve, the story I think is about the development of sentience, and with that the capacity to question and reject the Will that governs us all.
 
Robertanthony said:
Hi everyone,
Here’s a question that has puzzled me for a long time, it came up again recently as I was on a site where members are generally pretty antagonistic to the faith/God: one person posted, saying that since God hadn’t manifested himself in a powerful, convincing, for-everyone-to-behold kind of way in 2000 years, that was proof of his inexistence.
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RA:

Think it through: we can see small things, and we can see big things. But, we cannot see more than whatever is finite. We cannot see what is infinite. We can only imagine it.

Secondly, Christ went through enough the first time He was here. And, even then, many disbelieved. How many more times must He reenact incarnation?

Third, “blessed is he who believes yet has not seen.”
We gather from reading the book of Genesis that Adam enjoyed a pretty intimate relationship with God, that he could possibly see him with his natural eyes, the very least we can say is that it was not possible for Adam to doubt God’s existence,
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Actually, he wouldn’t have been able to see God with human eyes. He heard God’s voice, which could have been only in his head. Whenever God appeared to men, He appeared as something other than as God, e.g., a burning bush, etc. Besides, God is not a being, so He does not have the properties of being, such as objectification.
YET it was possible for Adam to know God existed beyond a shadow of a doubt (so being an atheist was not an option for him) AND disobey God’s commands. Therefore we can conclude that knowing for a fact (with undeniable,compelling proof) that God exists doesn’t nullify free-will.
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Not completely. But having been created “good,” we cannot say that Adam and Eve chose “bad.” We can only say that they went with their inclination to be better than they were. This was not a “bad” desire, but it was a “selfish” desire.
Seeing the Beatific Vision would, however, but this isn’t what this thread is about. So, is the fact that God remains hidden simply the consequence of the Fall and has, in fact, nothing to do with keeping our free-will intact?
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See above.

God bless,
jd
 
Dr. Peter Kreeft discusses this in his audio “7 reasons to be Catholic”.

He says what others have essentially said here.

If God gives too much evidence of existence, it defies our free will, and if he does not give enough, then even those who would seek would not find.

I cannot state it as well as Kreeft, I think you can find this talk on YouTube.
 
That is the $64 question.

But being hidden has many meanings. One that he is himself not seen with our eyes or heard with our ears.

But some have seen him with their eyes and heard them with their ears, those people are the saints. Jesus has appeared a number of times personally, as Mary, as some of the saints and angels.

But what this question begs for, is why hasn’t he appeared to me personally, or why is hidden from my own view? And the answer is…I don’t know. I suppose that that is singular grace given to those whom he choses to give it or so that others may benefit from it.

But…he dosen’t have to be hidden from us if we accept and love him in our heart. He then becomes very real for he reveals his presence to us in a special way in our soul. He is near and we can speak with him and he is not hidden. And we can know him and relate to him as well as I am relating to you. But that is something that must be desired and pursued.

We know He has chosen to reveal himself thru others; Abraham, prophets, kings, and other people. And then he revealed himself thu his son Jesus, and now he reveals himself thru his church

Jesus told the story of the rich man who died and went to hell. The man asked that Abraham send lazarus to them and warn them so they wouldn’t share the same fate. And the answer was, they had Moses and the prophets, and if they don’t believe them, then they wouldn’t believe someone comming back from the dead.

Just a sharing a few thoughts.
 
You see what you wish to see.

Some of us see the presence of God in practically everything and see His hand at work in their lives every day, others see nothing.

Padre Pio said “whether God shows Himself to you or hides Himself from you it’s all a game of love”
 
Robertanthony said:
Hi everyone,
Here’s a question that has puzzled me for a long time, it came up again recently as I was on a site where members are generally pretty antagonistic to the faith/God: one person posted, saying that since God hadn’t manifested himself in a powerful, convincing, for-everyone-to-behold kind of way in 2000 years, that was proof of his inexistence.

We gather from reading the book of Genesis that Adam enjoyed a pretty intimate relationship with God, that he could possibly see him with his natural eyes, the very least we can say is that it was not possible for Adam to doubt God’s existence, YET it was possible for Adam to know God existed beyond a shadow of a doubt (so being an atheist was not an option for him) AND disobey God’s commands. Therefore we can conclude that knowing for a fact (with undeniable,compelling proof) that God exists doesn’t nullify free-will. Seeing the Beatific Vision would, however, but this isn’t what this thread is about. So, is the fact that God remains hidden simply the consequence of the Fall and has, in fact, nothing to do with keeping our free-will intact?
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The catechism says that man can know of the existence of God with certainty by the natural light of his own reason or intellect as St Paul says: “Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made” (Romans 1:20). The fall of Adam and Eve though has darkened our minds to some extent whereby some people even deny that the knowledge of God’s existence can be known by the natural light of reason. I think Adam and Eve not only had a clear knowledge of God by the natural light of their intellect but also because of sanctifying grace by which they had an intimate relationship with God.

I do not believe the beatific vision nullifies man’s free will. For having a free will is an intrinsic component of our human nature, indeed, of the soul. We believe that we are made in God’s image because of our intellect and free will. Grace does not destroy nature but builds on it. I don’t think God’s destroys our nature in the beatific vision. However, in the beatific vision, the will whose object is the universal good, i.e., God, is so strongly attracted to God that it is impossible for the will to turn aside from God. Now, I don’t think that this nullifies free will but it nullifies it in the sense that it can longer choose between good and evil. Since we don’t see God in his essence here on earth, the will can make choices between good and apparent good, i.e., sin.

I think that our life here on earth is a probation period. God certainly would like all mankind to love and serve him here on earth and so be with him forever in heaven. But because we are free like God, he does not force us to love and serve him. The very nature of love is that it is free.
 
Crowbar said:
Dr. Peter Kreeft discusses this in his audio “7 reasons to be Catholic”.

He says what others have essentially said here.

If God gives too much evidence of existence, it defies our free will, and if he does not give enough, then even those who would seek would not find.

I cannot state it as well as Kreeft, I think you can find this talk on YouTube.
Click to expand...
I used to think like that. I do not think God purposely hid anything from us. It’s our plain stupidity that keeps holding us back, not God.
 
God is spirit, therefore unseen to human eyes, but He makes His presence known in many ways. There surely is not one human being who, if given the right circumstances to discuss events in his/her life, could deny the feeling that God had been present at one time or another. We can see the actions of God. It’s not necessary to see Him performing those actions.
 
Salvation is seeing God, so if God is seen to everyone, everyone would have salvation.
 
Robertanthony said:
Hi everyone,
Here’s a question that has puzzled me for a long time, it came up again recently as I was on a site where members are generally pretty antagonistic to the faith/God: one person posted, saying that since God hadn’t manifested himself in a powerful, convincing, for-everyone-to-behold kind of way in 2000 years, that was proof of his inexistence.

We gather from reading the book of Genesis that Adam enjoyed a pretty intimate relationship with God, that he could possibly see him with his natural eyes, the very least we can say is that it was not possible for Adam to doubt God’s existence, YET it was possible for Adam to know God existed beyond a shadow of a doubt (so being an atheist was not an option for him) AND disobey God’s commands. Therefore we can conclude that knowing for a fact (with undeniable,compelling proof) that God exists doesn’t nullify free-will. Seeing the Beatific Vision would, however, but this isn’t what this thread is about. So, is the fact that God remains hidden simply the consequence of the Fall and has, in fact, nothing to do with keeping our free-will intact?
Click to expand...
Whatever God does, He does with perfection. Let that be your starting point in understanding why He does what He does.
 
“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 
Robertanthony said:
Before the Fall, did God show himself in a powerful, showy way to Adam and Eve?
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I don’t think so. What powerful , showy way do you think God used reveal himself to Adam and Eve?
Adam knew God existed because it was manifest, it was made manifest to him. I believe in the Eucharist, the Real Presence, but you can’t know that you know that you know that God exists from merely looking at a consecrated Host. God’s existence was simply part of what Adam knew naturally: he knew the sun was setting at the end of each day, he knew he was going to wake up the next morning and see it up again, he knew the person who had created him (God) existed simply from regularly conversing with him, or being instructed by God etc. etc.
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Does manifest = powerful and showy?
 
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. As for myself I don’t question the existence of God nor was there a time when I did, I simply wanted clarification on this point. So essentially with the Fall our minds have deen darkened, we lost sanctifying grace (which we can regain through Christ), Christ is a pretty potent and compelling manifestation of God and there’s merit to be gained from believing without seeing.
 
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