Why does God choose to remain hidden?

[Seira]

This does not follow logically.

Judas saw God…

You’re assuming he’s not saved. No one here actually knows God’s final judgement on Judas.

 

[Robertanthony]

I don’t think so. What powerful , showy way do you think God used reveal himself to Adam and Eve?

Does manifest = powerful and showy?

No, you said Satan tempted Jesus to do so, I think the way in which God manifested himself to Adam and Eve wasn’t with the full extent of his glory. My point was that God’s existence nowadays could be made manifest without being “thunderbolt and lightning” and 1/3 of humanity dying from the shock! But it’s all speculation on my part.

 

[Bezant]

Hi everyone,

Here’s a question that has puzzled me for a long time, it came up again recently as I was on a site where members are generally pretty antagonistic to the faith/God: one person posted, saying that since God hadn’t manifested himself in a powerful, convincing, for-everyone-to-behold kind of way in 2000 years, that was proof of his inexistence.

We gather from reading the book of Genesis that Adam enjoyed a pretty intimate relationship with God, that he could possibly see him with his natural eyes, the very least we can say is that it was not possible for Adam to doubt God’s existence, YET it was possible for Adam to know God existed beyond a shadow of a doubt (so being an atheist was not an option for him) AND disobey God’s commands.

Therefore we can conclude that knowing for a fact (with undeniable,compelling proof) that God exists doesn’t nullify free-will.

Seeing the Beatific Vision would, however, but this isn’t what this thread is about.

So, is the fact that God remains hidden simply the consequence of the Fall and has, in fact, nothing to do with keeping our free-will intact?

Actually, I don’t think God is “hidden” because Adam and Eve disobeyed him in Eden – look at the conversations between Cain and God in the following chapter.

Rather, I think God has always been selective about where and when he should appear; he was a mystery even to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Perhaps God “hidden” to us now because we’re strong enough to accept the his mastery over everything around us, and we don’t need to have him in front of our eyes to believe that as Adam and Eve did.

 

[Robertanthony]

You’re assuming he’s not saved. No one here actually knows God’s final judgement on Judas.

I’d say about this that even though we can’t know for certain, the odds are stacked fairly high against his salvation, per Jesus’ strong words among other things. But you’re absolutely right, to God the judgement.

 

[Robertanthony]

Actually, I don’t think God is “hidden” because Adam and Eve disobeyed him in Eden – look at the conversations between Cain and God in the following chapter.
Rather, I think God has always been selective about where and when he should appear; he was a mystery even to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Perhaps God “hidden” to us now because we’re strong enough to accept the his mastery over everything around us, and we don’t need to have him in front of our eyes to believe that as Adam and Eve did.

Very good point. Are bible scholars affirmative that thes accounts were actual audible conversations or are we attributing what was actually the “voice” of his conscience to God actually speaking in human terms to him?

 

[djeter]

So, is the fact that God remains hidden simply the consequence of the Fall and has, in fact, nothing to do with keeping our free-will intact?

Just Enough Light

If God had wished to overcome the obstinacy of the most hardened he could have done so by revealing himself to them so plainly that they could not doubt the truth of his essence, as he will appear on the last day with such thunder and lightening and such convulsions of nature that the dead will rise up and the blindest will see him. This is not the way he wished to appear when he came in mildness, because so many men had shown themselves unworthy of his clemency, that he wished to deprive them of the good they did not desire.

It was therefore not right that he should appear in a manner manifestly divine and absolutely capable of convincing all men, but neither was it right that his coming should be so hidden that he could not be recognized by those who sincerely sought him. He wished to make himself perfectly recognizable to them. Thus wishing to appear openly to those who seek him with all their heart and hidden from those who shun him with all their heart he has qualified our knowledge of him by giving signs which can be seen by those who seek him and not by those who do not. ‘There is enough light for those who desire only to see and enough darkness for those of a contrary disposition.”
Blaise Pascal, Pensées 149

If he gave more light, the righteous would not learn humility, for they would know too much. If he gave less light, the wicked would not be responsible for their wickedness, for they would know too little. There are three answers to why God is not more obvious:

1. 
   *] He wants to give us time to repent. Scripture says this in [Genesis 15:16]; Isaiah 48:9]; Luke 13:7-9]; [Romans 2:4]
   *] He wants to effect a true relationship with us, not one merely of intellectual belief but of personal faith, hope, love and trust. The propositions of lovers are different from the propositions of syllogisms.
   *] God is both love and justice; if he manifests himself truly it cannot be without love or without justice. His love led Him to save all who will have Him, and his justice led him to punish those who will not have him. Thus he respects our free choice. He deprives the damned only of the good they do not desire.
   
   dj

 

[Carlan]

We can only speculate.

My personal view is that there is just enough darkness to attract the dark-minded and just enough light to attract the light-minded. By choosing to withhold His glory He allows light to divide itself from darkness. Those who thirst for righteousness and those who thirst for power will either be attracted to Jesus or repelled by Him. I base this on scripture calling people children of darkness and children of light.

Maybe after separating light from darkness the new creation will begin, like this present world in Genises.

I understand this very simple personal view of yours perfectly, it reminds me of something I experienced many, many years ago.
Thank you for the memory! Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Just Enough Light

If he gave more light, the righteous would not learn humility, for they would know too much. If he gave less light, the wicked would not be responsible for their wickedness, for they would know too little. There are three answers to why God is not more obvious:

1. 
   *] He wants to give us time to repent. Scripture says this in [Genesis 15:16]; Isaiah 48:9]; Luke 13:7-9]; [Romans 2:4]
   *] He wants to effect a true relationship with us, not one merely of intellectual belief but of personal faith, hope, love and trust. The propositions of lovers are different from the propositions of syllogisms.
   *] God is both love and justice; if he manifests himself truly it cannot be without love or without justice. His love led Him to save all who will have Him, and his justice led him to punish those who will not have him. Thus he respects our free choice. He deprives the damned only of the good they do not desire.
   
   dj

1. 
   And I thank you Djeter,:thumbsupeace, Carlan

 

[norain]

Before the Fall, did God show himself in a powerful, showy way to Adam and Eve?

Not powerful enough, it seems.

As Aladdin said in the movie, “you call that a genie?!”

 

[Bezant]

Very good point. Are bible scholars affirmative that thes accounts were actual audible conversations or are we attributing what was actually the “voice” of his conscience to God actually speaking in human terms to him?

This is another question altogether – did things in the Bible happen exactly as they are described? The answer is, maybe. There are quite a few interesting threads on this topic in Sacred Scripture if you search for them.

 

[J_Peterson]

Just look at everything around you. Where do you think all this came from?

As for Adam and Eve, the story I think is about the development of sentience, and with that the capacity to question and reject the Will that governs us all.

I’ve thought about that as well. I wonder how in-line with Catholic teaching it is?

 

[norain]

I’ve thought about that as well. I wonder how in-line with Catholic teaching it is?

I think it works out okay until you factor in the original sin part. A few years ago I tasked myself to understand this simple question: why did Jesus, the all-powerful governor of all, have to die to supposedly save me? Is he bound by someone else, something else? One might say the father’s will, but who binds the father other than himself?

I have an answer that is satisfactory to me (I think it’s called the theory of atonement, or at least part of it is), but I do not think that explains original sin either.

The late Pope John Paul II mentioned it in one of his books (Crossing the Threshold of Hope, I believe).

 

[johnnyjones]

If God came out of the sky for all to see in this day and age, would we believe it?

But I have always wondered myself why God through the ages couldn’t have made an exceptional visual presence. Just appearing every so often and speaking in a voice we can literally hear. Some day I hope to find all these things out.

 

[norain]

If God came out of the sky for all to see in this day and age, would we believe it?

But I have always wondered myself why God through the ages couldn’t have made an exceptional visual presence. Just appearing every so often and speaking in a voice we can literally hear. Some day I hope to find all these things out.

Another thing I used to wonder about myself. Probably the last thing I sincerely asked of God was to show me a miracle, an honest miracle to show me his presence.

I did my own readings and came to the realization (not my original idea, Einstein himself is quoted to have said it) that everything is indeed a miracle, even within the framework of formal proofs. To me that was simply amazing. God hidden in plain sight!

I’m so convinced of that now that I also believe that if I cannot find God in the everyday things, I will never find him.

He **is **in the everyday things.

Be still, and know.

 

[jimmy]

I have a simple question: is it the case that God has remained hidden and hasn’t revealed himself, or has he revealed himself to each and every person and we have just turned it into a mundane thing that is just ordinary? What would it take to actually get people to believe? I think that no matter what God did, people would find a way to turn it into something ordinary and meaningless. He could descend from heaven and heal everyone of all their sicknesses and make it that no one dies, and declare ‘I am God’, but people would explain it away.

Everything must be ordinary, because what isn’t doesn’t make sense. There isn’t a law for the inordinate so everything must become ordinary. Take the big bang as an example of what I mean; there isn’t a single center of the universe, but rather each point of space is a center of expansion. Every point is perfectly ordinary.

 

[Richca]

If God came out of the sky for all to see in this day and age, would we believe it?

But I have always wondered myself why God through the ages couldn’t have made an exceptional visual presence. Just appearing every so often and speaking in a voice we can literally hear. Some day I hope to find all these things out.

Jesus and Mary have made exceptional visual presences though not to everybody at once but to certain people and saints. Consider the mystical experiences of St Catherine of Genoa, St Margarat Mary Alacoque, St Teresa of Avila, St Faustina Kowalska, St Bernadette of Lourdes, St Padre Pio, St Bridgett of Sweden, the 3 children of Fatima, to name just a few.

Thus the scripture is being fulfilled as spoken by the prophet Joel:
‘It will come to pass in the last days,’ God says, that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:17). Consider the dreams of St John Bosco.

 

[Carlan]

I have a simple question: is it the case that God has remained hidden and hasn’t revealed himself, or has he revealed himself to each and every person and we have just turned it into a mundane thing that is just ordinary?

Don’t you know, God is present beside us always convicting us with His actual grace, in our thoughts,in our minds and in our hearts, and what do we most often say to him? not yet Lord , not yet.
Yes Jimmy, that’s the question!
Peace, Carlan

 

[norain]

I have a simple question: is it the case that God has remained hidden and hasn’t revealed himself, or has he revealed himself to each and every person and we have just turned it into a mundane thing that is just ordinary? What would it take to actually get people to believe? I think that no matter what God did, people would find a way to turn it into something ordinary and meaningless. He could descend from heaven and heal everyone of all their sicknesses and make it that no one dies, and declare ‘I am God’, but people would explain it away.

Everything must be ordinary, because what isn’t doesn’t make sense. There isn’t a law for the inordinate so everything must become ordinary. Take the big bang as an example of what I mean; there isn’t a single center of the universe, but rather each point of space is a center of expansion. Every point is perfectly ordinary.

There is one thing. The origin of all that is ordinary, is necessarily extraordinary.

 

[jimmy]

There is one thing. The origin of all that is ordinary, is necessarily extraordinary.

That may be the case, but it isn’t a good argument. Why should what is ordinary procede from what is extraordinary? It is ordinary, mundane, meaningless and exactly the same as everything else; there is no need to speak of what is extraordinary because there is a perfectly ordinary explanation.

 

[wmw]

That may be the case, but it isn’t a good argument. Why should what is ordinary procede from what is extraordinary? It is ordinary, mundane, meaningless and exactly the same as everything else; there is no need to speak of what is extraordinary because there is a perfectly ordinary explanation.

Yes, I agree, and I would add that it’s our choice to label one thing ordinary and another extraordinary. In sin we push God away and blind ourselves. Even in forgiven purity we see dimly in this world, but it’s not in absence of God. He is so patient and gentile he will not disturb us. We must pray, God please disturb me, correct me, and give me eyes that I might see, but the little discomfort he applies I squirm, if corrected I’m stubborn, and in the light I close my eyes and far too soon forget or rationalize away even what I did see.

I also very much liked your any point of the universe is the center analogy.