Why does God "kill" in the Bible?

[Huiou_Theou]

Okay. He never ordered a massive geoncide that included pregnant women. I guess I am not sorry, and I can’t read the plain words in the OT.

You have said it, and clearly you did not carefully read what I wrote. If you do not read my plain writing – then how can I trust you with the bible, which is not originally written in English, nor with respect to the culture(s) which wrote it.

Perhaps you can read the “plain” words, but that does not mean that you interpret them correctly. Whenever God speaks, it is through angels – even at the “burning” bush, the bible indicates that God spoke through angels. That these spokesmen vary in their disposition – good or evil – is indisputable:

If you wish to accuse God, you need to prove that He – not a creature representing him – willed the damnation of the infants you speak of. That he may have allowed one set to die, rather than another – I can’t dispute – but without the teaching of the Church, I don’t think you can prove from “plain” scripture what you are arguing.

To me, if I were to see the face of God – I would simply die – that is my corruptible body. But to see the face of God and live is heaven. What then of the “Holy Innocents” who died at Herod’s hand for the name of Jesus whom Herod was trying to kill?
The church teaches there, that they are martyrs – and the reward of martyrs is heaven – even baby martyrs.

Not all the children in Ramah were Jews – just as not all those who walked through the waters of the Red Sea were Jews.

Answer me this, then: Who is responsible for Pharaoh’s hard heart – Pharaoh or God? The plain words do say (in places) that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

There are also passages which say that the “wicked” go astray from the womb.

 

[notsmart]

You have said it, and clearly you did not carefully read what I wrote. If you do not read my plain writing – then how can I trust you with the bible, which is not originally written in English, nor with respect to the culture(s) which wrote it.

Perhaps you can read the “plain” words, but that does not mean that you interpret them correctly. Whenever God speaks, it is through angels – even at the “burning” bush, the bible indicates that God spoke through angels. That these spokesmen vary in their disposition – good or evil – is indisputable:

If you wish to accuse God, you need to prove that He – not a creature representing him – willed the damnation of the infants you speak of. That he may have allowed one set to die, rather than another – I can’t dispute – but without the teaching of the Church, I don’t think you can prove from “plain” scripture what you are arguing.

To me, if I were to see the face of God – I would simply die – that is my corruptible body. But to see the face of God and live is heaven. What then of the “Holy Innocents” who died at Herod’s hand for the name of Jesus whom Herod was trying to kill?
The church teaches there, that they are martyrs – and the reward of martyrs is heaven – even baby martyrs.

Not all the children in Ramah were Jews – just as not all those who walked through the waters of the Red Sea were Jews.
They welcomed the stranger as a rule – which although violated, was none-the less the practice God enjoined on them.

Answer me this, then: Who is responsible for Pharaoh’s hard heart – Pharaoh or God? The plain words do say (in places) that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

There are also passages which say that the “wicked” go astray from the womb.

Okay, yes Pharaoh is clear.

A baby cant reject God.

God killed babies. Mostly, the non Jewish ones. But, you are correct to say their slaves also who were not jews. So, this only gets me more angry.

God killed helpless babies that were not chosen people, who could not chose to love or reject him, and then he even killed the poor slave women’s babies who served the chosen ones.

 

[colliric]

You have said it, and clearly you did not carefully read what I wrote. If you do not read my plain writing – then how can I trust you with the bible, which is not originally written in English, nor with respect to the culture(s) which wrote it.

Perhaps you can read the “plain” words, but that does not mean that you interpret them correctly. Whenever God speaks, it is through angels – even at the “burning” bush, the bible indicates that God spoke through angels. That these spokesmen vary in their disposition – good or evil – is indisputable:

If you wish to accuse God, you need to prove that He – not a creature representing him – willed the damnation of the infants you speak of. That he may have allowed one set to die, rather than another – I can’t dispute – but without the teaching of the Church, I don’t think you can prove from “plain” scripture what you are arguing.

To me, if I were to see the face of God – I would simply die – that is my corruptible body. But to see the face of God and live is heaven. What then of the “Holy Innocents” who died at Herod’s hand for the name of Jesus whom Herod was trying to kill?
The church teaches there, that they are martyrs – and the reward of martyrs is heaven – even baby martyrs.

Not all the children in Ramah were Jews – just as not all those who walked through the waters of the Red Sea were Jews.

Answer me this, then: Who is responsible for Pharaoh’s hard heart – Pharaoh or God? The plain words do say (in places) that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

There are also passages which say that the “wicked” go astray from the womb.

Your Answer is to be found in the notes of the Douay Rheims, Bishop challoner’s notes on Chapter 4 of Exodus:

21 “I shall harden”… Not by being the efficient cause of his sin; but by withdrawing from him, for his just punishment, the dew of grace that might have softened his heart; and so suffering him to grow harder and harder.

When you Commit a Mortal sin(such as Pride, which is what Pharoah does, even before the narrative itself starts he had too much of it), you sever your relationship between yourself and God. But as we all know, Nothing truly occurs that is not of God’s own will. So God hardened Pharoah’s heart… by allowing/giving him the gift of free will, and Pharoah choose to be Prideful and disrespectful, so God, because he had to allow PHaroah to have free will, withdrew his Grace from Pharoah, just like he does to all sinners who choose to sin(as they must suffer the consiquences of their actions).

So Pharoah is responsible for choosing to Sin,

But God is ALSO responsible for it, because he gave Pharoah the wonderful gift of Free Choice that allowed Pharoah to commit the Mortal Sin and suffer the consiquences of the Loss of Grace(a proocess that God himself designed to occur to anyone who committs Sin).

The Verse is telling us that NOTHING, ABSOLUTLY NOTHING occues outside of God’s will, even Sin.

It is really this verse which explains why God allows Sin to occur, because he gave us the wonderful gift of Free Choice and we abuse that gift, but God will nevertheless not take that gift away(befcause it is wonderful) until we come to the end of our lives.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Okay, yes Pharaoh is clear.

A baby cant reject God.

God killed babies. Mostly, the non Jewish ones. But, you are correct to say their slaves also who were not jews. So, this only gets me more angry.

Show me a passage where it says “the baby was wicked and God himself Slew it.” I don’t ever remember reading that. Now when the angels come to speak through the prophets – sometimes a devil is sent. How then, do you know that God actually KILLED and DAMNED a baby?

God killed helpless babies that were not chosen people, who could not chose to love or reject him, and then he even killed the poor slave women’s babies who served the chosen ones.

Martyrs go to heaven … which is a martyr, which is not. How do you prove what you are saying – Quotes please.

 

[notsmart]

Show me a passage where it says “the baby was wicked and God himself Slew it.” I don’t ever remember reading that. Now when the angels come to speak through the prophets – sometimes a devil is sent. How then, do you know that God actually KILLED and DAMNED a baby?

You must have a different understanding of the word Martyr then.

How can being killed by your creator’s orders while you are in the womb, anything you can equate to martyr status?

Unless, they are martyrs. That died at the hands of a AntiChrist.

 

[NoelFitz]

I read:

God killing babies is 100% good? Very sick thinking. You are welcome to that god…and similar comments.

May I congratulate all those who are searching for the truth here and asking tough questions.

In the old days people had to justify their ways before God. Now God has tio justify his ways before people.

One thing the OT does is that it gives one an insight into why the Israelis feel free to bomb and kill their neighbors.

Bur everyone loves a dictator. If one did not love a dictator one would end up in a Gulag or a concentration camp or, in God’s case, in hell.

One is commanded to love God: “You will love the Lord, your God”.

Saying God is bound by laws of nature that humans decide on is limiting God. That is one of the weaknesses of Aquinaqs.

As I said before there is no answer to the question of evil.

I remnd you about the potter being in control of the clay and God’s ways being unknown to us.

We are commaned to love God and our neighbors. That is the way things are.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

When you Commit a Mortal sin(such as Pride, which is what Pharoah does, even before the narrative itself starts he had too much of it), you sever your relationship between yourself and God. But as we all know, Nothing truly occurs that is not of God’s own will.

We do not all know this. If a will is free – it is not God’s will but a free will. Thus Jesus could speak two ways – his human will and his divine will.

So God hardened Pharoah’s heart… by allowing/giving him the gift of free will, and Pharoah choose to be Prideful and disrespectful, so God, because he had to allow PHaroah to have free will, withdrew his Grace from Pharoah, just like he does to all sinners who choose to sin(as they must suffer the consiquences of their actions).

So Pharoah is responsible for choosing to Sin,

But God is ALSO responsible for it, because he gave Pharoah the wonderful gift of Free Choice that allowed Pharoah to commit the Mortal Sin and suffer the consiquences of the Loss of Grace(a proocess that God himself designed to occur to anyone who committs Sin).

The Verse is telling us that NOTHING, ABSOLUTLY NOTHING occues outside of God’s will, even Sin.

God is not responsible for what another will chooses.
If it is impossible for God to lie, then clearly it is impossible for God to create a free will which is not intrinsically free – even if extrinsically limited.

 

[colliric]

You must have a different understanding of the word Martyr then.

How can being killed by your creator’s orders while you are in the womb, anything you can equate to martyr status?

Unless, they are martyrs. That died at the hands of a AntiChrist.

You can most definatly be a Martyr, and not have “made a stand” on the issue you became a martyr for.

Your stance is the top one, but many, inc the other poster, use the 3rd and also correct definition listed here(from answers.com/topic/martyr):
1.
One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis.
One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

You must have a different understanding of the word Martyr then.

How can being killed by your creator’s orders while you are in the womb, anything you can equate to martyr status?

Unless, they are martyrs. That died at the hands of a AntiChrist.

You are the one who repeats the accusation against God without solid proof in the first place. How do YOU know for certain that it was God’s orders that they be not just killed (I hope to die, if it means Heaven) – but that they are WILLED as in maliciously – to go to hell even though they are innocent?

Please – repeating that God killed babies doesn’t make it true.

The plain words “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” may be understood differently – then there needs to be more than an asserion – Again; I ask for quotes. I can produce quotes showing that Pharaoh himself is responsible for his sin – not God.

 

[colliric]

We do not all know this. If a will is free – it is not God’s will but a free will. Thus Jesus could speak two ways – his human will and his divine will.

God is not responsible for what another will chooses.
If it is impossible for God to lie, then clearly it is impossible for God to create a free will which is not intrinsically free – even if extrinsically limited.

Let me put it this way:

God Created me, Ergo anything I do summarily is of God’s Will because he willed me into existence.

He willed for me to have life and therefore what I do in my life is ONLY because God willed me into existence.

AND most importantly of all **he WILLED that I had my own freedom to Choose him or not choose him. **

This is what the verse is communicating to us. That EVERYTHING which occurs in creation occurs only because God willed it into existence and willed that we would have our own free will to either love the fact that he created us, or not.

So anything we do in creation, we do because God allows us to have the Gift of free will. Ergo he allowed Pharoah the freedom to choose sin, so he naturally “hardened pharoah’s heart”, because that was what pharoah choose to do, as my Douay Rheims bible correctly states.

So clearly to do anything that does not respect that God Created me, is sinful and just plain wrong and even evil. But God will allow it to be so and will allow us to suffer the punishment/consiquences(Like a good father does, If i do something wrong and disrespectful he gives me a boot up the ***), if that is what I choose to do because of the greatest gift he gave us, Life and democracy(to put it in a more defined sense).

 

[notsmart]

If you want me to admit I am angry over a temporal death, so be it.
I still see no reason -nor logic in placing these innocents in a place unknown.
If you do, congrats.

You are the one who repeats the accusation against God without solid proof in the first place. How do YOU know for certain that it was God’s orders that they be not just killed (I hope to die, if it means Heaven) – but that they are WILLED as in maliciously – to go to hell even though they are innocent?

Please – repeating that God killed babies doesn’t make it true.

The plain words “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” may be understood differently – then there needs to be more than an asserion – Again; I ask for quotes. I can produce quotes showing that Pharaoh himself is responsible for his sin – not God.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Let me put it this way:

God Created me, Ergo anything I do summarily is of God’s Will because he willed me into existence.

He willed for me to have life and therefore what I do in my life is ONLY because God willed me into existence.

AND most importantly of all **he WILLED that I had my own freedom to Choose him or not choose him. **

This is what the verse is communicating to us. That EVERYTHING which occurs in creation occurs only because God willed it into existence and willed that we would have our own free will to either love the fact that he created us, or not.

So anything we do in creation, we do because God allows us to have the Gift of free will. Ergo he allowed Pharoah the freedom to choose sin, so he naturally “hardened pharoah’s heart”, because that was what pharoah choose to do, as my Douay Rheims bible correctly states.

So clearly to do anything that does not respect that God Created me, is sinful and just plain wrong and even evil. But God will allow it to be so and will allow us to suffer the punishment/consiquences(Like a good father does, If i do something wrong and disrespectful he gives me a boot up the ***), if that is what I choose to do because of the greatest gift he gave us, Life and democracy(to put it in a more defined sense).

I would agree that I am responsible for my offspring in an analogous way – by having relations with my wife, I WILLED to risk the consequences of what my child may do at any time during their life. I am , therefore summarily responsible for my child’s action. If this analogy is acceptable, we’re in total agreement.
Nothing could happen (no child) if the first act did not take place.

However, most parents are not held responsible for what their children do against – the – parents - immediate – will.

Eg: God wills (desires) that all men be saved.

 

[notsmart]

“However, most parents are not held responsible for what their children do against – the – parents - immediate – will.”

Like a child in the womb?

Temporal death, I know. I know.

Still very disturbing.

 

[colliric]

I would agree that I am responsible for my offspring in an analogous way – by having relations with my wife, I WILLED to risk the consequences of what my child may do at any time during their life. I am , therefore summarily responsible for my child’s action. If this analogy is acceptable, we’re in total agreement.
Nothing could happen (no child) if the first act did not take place.

However, most parents are not held responsible for what their children do against – the – parents - immediate – will.

Eg: God wills (desires) that all men be saved.

I think some people when they read that verse get confused because of the Narrative itself. The sin committed by pharoah is Pride(Original sin, the worst mortal sin), and it is very clearly committed well and truly before the narrative even begins. But some get confused because we read things soemtimes in too much of a choronological sense, so we dont nessecerily see Pharoah’s pride does not develop in the narrative, but was in fact deeply seeded in his heart.

He was never going to let the Jews leave his land, for the sake of pride.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

If you want me to admit I am angry over a temporal death, so be it.
I still see no reason -nor logic in placing these innocents in a place unknown.
If you do, congrats.

Hmm, so angry = figuring out religion?
I don’t think so.

What is illogical about placing them in an unknown place – if my dad didn’t tell me where my brother was for a while, I wouldn’t say he is illogical. I WOULD TRUST THAT MY DAD TOOK CARE OF MY BROTHER AS BEST HE COULD.

Now, if I knew everything – there would be no room to trust my dad – the feeling would be pointless. Yet trust is one of the most enjoyable feelings I know with my parents.

If I were upset, I would talk to my dad about it. Maybe he would answer – maybe he wouldn’t. I don’t walk around saying – where is John dad – since I don’t know, you don’t exist, OR you are evil.

 

[notsmart]

Genisis 18:17-23 (verse 25 is a hoot!)

There is so much more—

Go to the very end…to verse 33.



And there is are so many more examples, we are just touching on Genesis now…

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I think some people when they read that verse get confused because of the Narrative itself. … But some get confused because we read things soemtimes in too much of a choronological sense, so we dont nessecerily see Pharoah’s pride does not develop in the narrative, but was in fact deeply seeded in his heart.

He was never going to let the Jews leave his land, for the sake of pride.

Except the double negatives make part of it ambiguous.
Pharaoh can be seen as gaining in pride because his magicians are able to partially replicate the acts of God – eg: the staff to serpent trick – vs. the serpent which EATS the other serpent.

 

[notsmart]

What is illogical about placing them in an unknown place – if my dad didn’t tell me where my brother was for a while, I wouldn’t say he is illogical. I WOULD TRUST THAT MY DAD TOOK CARE OF MY BROTHER AS BEST HE COULD.

Not so quick. I could say, why the big change dad? Mid life crisis?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Genisis 18:17-23 (verse 25 is a hoot!)

There is so much more—

Go to the very end…to verse 33.



And there is are so many more examples, we are just touching on Genesis now…

In the example you cite, what is your problem?
The city of Sodom was wicked – and we know that on the last day the citizens of Sodom will condemn those who do not believe.
Even they will echo the justice of God.

My day is at an end, I will need to catch up later…

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Not so quick. I could say, why the big change dad? Mid life crisis?

Yes, and you can ask God that too – maybe he will answer.
My dad occasionally had GOOD reason not to tell the siblings where the other was – even without “pure” love. How much more God?

Job is a model of people angry with God – and not sinning.