Why does God "kill" in the Bible?

[notsmart]

In the example you cite, what is your problem?
The city of Sodom was wicked – and we know that on the last day the citizens of Sodom will condemn those who do not believe.
Even they will echo the justice of God.

My day is at an end, I will need to catch up later…

Good night. Try to explain how there were no pregnant women in Sodom, and no babies died.

 

[colliric]

Good night. Try to explain how there were no pregnant women in Sodom, and no babies died.

We cannot, it is in fact a matter of simply trusting that there was not, which can perhaps be derived from the exchange between God and Abraham before the narrative occurs, when he asks if there is Righteous people in the city, this pertition perhaps can also be extended to the Innocent of the city.

Abraham asks this question perhaps covering this aspect too.

In fact a Jewish lady once imparted to me that when the bible says something is crying to God about a certain sin, it is in fact the souls of the innocent who are denied existence because of the sin, especially in the Cain narrative which is not fully translated into english(because it would in fact say “Bloods of your brother”). So Perhaps the souls of the unborn innocents themselves were “crying” to God. But I’m not really sure.

 

[notsmart]

Hosea 13:16 is rather terrifying isn’t it?

Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword,** their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.**

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hosea 13:16 is rather terrifying isn’t it?

Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword,** their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.**

Good night. Try to explain how there were no pregnant women in Sodom, and no babies died.

This grows tiresome;

In the first place, I don’t need to explain that there were no pregnant women – you need to show that these children were damned and were actually killed unjustly in order to accuse God of anything. At the level you’re arguing – the very fact a child has feelings (pain/pressure/warmth/cold) is sufficient reason to accuse God of evil.

Consider Lot’s daughters do not die where Luke 17:29 says:

“but on the day when Lot went out of Sodom, … fire and brimstone destroyed them all.”

“All” means only a representative, not every single Sodomite.

And quick you are to note the possibly dead child, but in the same stroke you forget that God actually SAVED Sodom through Abraham just in the chapters before – (and God’s reward is “F*** you” (literally) )

When I go through surgery, a drug can be administered which makes me forget all the pain I suffered during the surgery – so that even if I hurt – I do not remember it afterward. This is sufficient for me – I have no anger at the doctor who operated on me afterward, and I know that the surgery was for my Good – how much more can God make the infant forget the physical pain which they bore if that is appropriate?

BUT:
Again, where does it say that God himself destroyed innocents in Sodom? If Lot was spared, whom’s daughters were evil in the pagan sense, why do you think any truly innocent died there (and even if they did, your point is not proven) – after all, the sexual sin of Sodom was not heterosexual – it was sterile rape.

That is in fact part of the Greek text of the LXX, In Greek it shows that the Sodomites final sin consisted in NOT having relations with the proper kind of flesh which could impregnate.

The angels who went into Sodom, are male in the narrative.
Try and tell me homosexual acts bring forth children – these wicked Sodomites even refused to have relations with Lot’s daughter’s, the men only wanted the MALE angels instead – and they wanted to rule over the angels – even if sexually.

Jude 1.4, 7, 8 “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.”

The condemnation of Sodom follows upon the personal examination of the city by the angels which visited Abraham with the presence of God in their midst. The sentence was already known, but was not carried out until personal attack was carried out against the Just (Lot and the Angels). If these angels came to exonerate Lot, any other just person would have been exonerated as well.

Again, notsmart, spewing anger is not the same as biblical study or interpretation. You are throwing out passages, and then running away from them when they do not truly support what you are contending – Read the whole passage, spend some time thinking about it before Judging.

I have a higher standard to ask of you than “can you prove a child died in an activity where an imperfect messenger of God was involved”.

The prophecy in Hosea is not carried out by malicious power from God, but by the simple war tactics of the Pagans around them. Again, the devil has always murdered … etc.

There is a difference between cause and effect – and correlation.
God is Lord of history, he allowed the armies of the enemy to kill – even the children. He did not want it to be so in a malicious sense.

 

[notsmart]

I am just going to take this one part at a time, okay?

"This grows tiresome;

In the first place, I don’t need to explain that there were no pregnant women – you need to show that these children were damned and were actually killed unjustly in order to accuse God of anything. At the level you’re arguing – the very fact a child has feelings (pain/pressure/warmth/cold) is sufficient reason to accuse God of evil. "

1. I am not claiming the children or unborn were damned, I don’t know how you think that when I admitted their deaths would be temporal. I am sorry you feel my commments are tiresome.
2. children and unborn cant possibly have ever done anything to be killed, so all killing of children and unborn is UNJUST.
3. What am I accusing God of here? One can’t do that or…
   He will demand a bunch of animals to be burned, then you will be killed too.

 

[notsmart]

Honestly, there are so many killing sprees in the OT going on, I would need weeks to put together a list. Why did Miriam get stricken with leprosy when Arron was just as guilty of “offense” and with her too? I suppose there was a reason to spare the male in that case? How about all the commands to stone your kids if they smart off to you?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I am just going to take this one part at a time, okay?

Fair enough.

1. I am not claiming the children or unborn were damned, I don’t know how you think that when I admitted their deaths would be temporal. I am sorry you feel my commments are tiresome.

The clarification helps.
The comments which accuse, but do not explain, are tiresome.
Job has more right to complain, as far as I know, and yet in his anger he does not accuse.

1. children and unborn cant possibly have ever done anything to be killed, so all killing of children and unborn is UNJUST.

I agree – and that is why I have said that the Devil is a murderer from the first.

1. What am I accusing God of here? One can’t do that or…
   He will demand a bunch of animals to be burned, then you will be killed too.

Point 3) is tiresome.

That particular point ignores what sacrifice is (animal or not), why God asked (not demanded it) – because God had to agree to a contract with man in order to redeem him freely – and since he Chose Abraham who understood the meaning of sacrifice in a bloody manner – God agreed to sacrifice in a bloody manner.

In fact, God often says – Your sacrifices are an abomination to me – do you think I need your sacrifices to eat? etc.

Sacrifice is necessary, otherwise there can be no world, no interaction, no learning, no growing and loving. But – the degree and nature of the required sacrifice depends on the particular capacity of the Humans involved. All life requires sacrifices of various kinds and degrees.

 

[notsmart]

Job has more right to complain, as far as I know, and yet in his anger he does not accuse.

Yes, I am understanding that. If you had no capacity to know God because you were not chosen by him, you would be required a lot of sacrifices. Like lettting God’s chosen people slaughter you.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Honestly, there are so many killing sprees in the OT going on, I would need weeks to put together a list. Why did Miriam get stricken with leprosy when Arron was just as guilty of “offense” and with her too? I suppose there was a reason to spare the male in that case? How about all the commands to stone your kids if they smart off to you?

Miriam was being racist – it was she who wanted only “white” children (jews) – Moses married an ethiopian – which are recorded biblically as having a “skin” unlike the others (eg: it was black).

Leprosy is a disease which turns the skin very white. In other words – since the complaint is that the dynasty of Israel ought to be “white” in Miriam’s terms – God made her whiter.

The same logic, and insult, will be repeated in the new testament when St. Paul calls the High Priest lit. “whitey”.

But there is much more: Miriam is not killed for what she does – but AAron (far from being spared) is taken up on a mountain to DIE EARLY because of his part.

For all I know, Miriam lived to a ripe old age.

Reverse sexism is just as wrong as sexism.

Commands to stone kids… Hmmm… That is a bit off topic – but even the permission for divorce which Moses Granted – God says through Jesus – That Moses gave that Law because of stubbornness of heart NOT because that was the way adam and eve were created. Again, the spokesman of God has a part in the contract (priestly mission) between God and Man.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Yes, I am understanding that. If you had no capacity to know God because you were not chosen by him, you would be required a lot of sacrifices. Like lettting God’s chosen people slaughter you.

Non-sequiter, also.

Today Christians generally do not SLAUGHTER (self defense, yes, slaughter no.) people of other faiths. So, for ME – when I did not have the capacity to know God (I was troubled with atheism for a time) – I was not slaughtered.

 

[notsmart]

Miriam was being racist – it was she who wanted only “white” children (jews) – Moses married an ethiopian – which are recorded biblically as having a “skin” unlike the others (eg: it was black).

 

[notsmart]

Non-sequiter, also.

Today Christians generally do not SLAUGHTER (self defense, yes, slaughter no.) people of other faiths. So, for ME – when I did not have the capacity to know God (I was troubled with atheism for a time) – I was not slaughtered.

It’s nice that Christians today have calmed down considerably isn’t it?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Miriam and Arron were merely wondering why it was okie dokie for Moses to be given an exception to marry outside of the Jewish clan. They knew it was not allowed, and wondered why Moses got a pass. Its not surprising you would accuse her of racism, when I have no reason to see that from the text.

In your own comment – outside the Jewish clan = outside the race of Jews. So, marrying outside the clan is racist…

Again, I don’t think you are reading things very carefully –
but I could be proved wrong.

Perhaps asking non-sarcastic questions rather than making bald assertions would give you more time to pick apart my ideas rather than running from one half defensible assertion to another…

Also – that Moses’ wife had a non-standard color of skin (as an Ethiopian) is mentioned elsewhere in scripture. Not as a reference to Moses’ wife – but to the practices of her ethinicity. Do you want me to quote that scripture or do you know of it already, but perhaps have forgotten it?

That’s not all it does to the skin, which- can hardly be called white when the leporsy is raging with open wounds.

So what ? – Miriam would be healed when AAron prayed and made intercession for her. She didn’t ferment with leprosy for the rest of her life.

Another example of a man of God acting like a…

…

Someone should have sent him a memo to never question Moses’ ability to break the law since God chose him.

Where is this law stated, and what are its limites?

Was not Ruth a Moabitess outside the “clan” – Is she not Jesse’s grand-ma-ma, and is this not the line who would bring forth Jesus?
What God given law are you speaking of before the time of Moses?

Thanks, but no thanks. If I had leprosy raging all over my body, living to a “ripe old age” seems like just another brutal slow torturous punishment to undergo. Did the punishment “fit” the “crime”? I’d say NO.

Yes the punishment did fit the crime – and she was healed just a short time after, after which she had no leprosy into her old age. Nor did she repeat the racist remarks…

? Its off topic, because why? Telling someone to kill, does not make you innocent of the death when you have hired a hit man to do it (without pay and with fear of death if you don’t)

Because I have already given ample evidence that the way of speaking in the bible does not always agree with the Elizabethan & American English assumptions you are reading into it. eg: “All” is not always every single one, God hardening someones heart is NOT God causing a person (directly) to be a sinner.

Since scripture speaks of these events from multiple perspectives, picking and choosing a sentence here or there without paying attention to its full context is a miserable way to interpret scripture – one has to find the consistent explanation which considers the totality of scripture.

A hit man is not the same as an executioner either – nor a police man shooting in self defense – nor nor nor… Again, what does feeling pain or death have to do with the injustice OF GOD?

Not the wickedness or evil of man. If man were not in God’s image he is an animal without any rights at all – those who make animals of man, kill him in multiple ways.

Again, if they disobey the Law- there is always some tap dance around enforcement if they are chosen.

Quite the contrary – even the Samaritans who are NOT chosen people were afforded the protection of the Jewish law. It was people, not the Law, which violated the principle of justice.

Even the Egyptians who were NOT chosen, but who CHOSE themselves to go with the Israelites out of Egypt were given the protection from the burning sun in the desert by the cloud – and were protected from their murderous brothers by the pillar of fire at night.

I see that.

If so – then why do you blame God for what those between him and the world do?

 

[notsmart]

In your own comment – outside the Jewish clan = outside the race of Jews. So, marrying outside the clan is racist…

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Jews were not to marry non jews.

bald assertion.

Moses, Judah, King David, and MANY MANY other men married non-jews. There were laws governing the RIGHTS gained by non Israelites when they married into a clan. (PERIOD).
.

I am simply not ignoring the bible events.

Yes you are – you ignore everything that does not agree with your opinion.
I admit the difficulties associated with suffeing and death – just not your myopic judgement of them.

As to the different skin of the Ethiopian.

Jerim 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil

As you know Ethiopians were not even allowed in the temple for worship. Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch’s problem? Let alone marry a Jew…
God came up with this racism, not Miriam.

Hello !!! – the Ethiopians were allowed in the outermost part of the temple for the specific reason of worship along with many OTHER non-Israelite peoples – it is for this reason that Jesus took a whip to the money changers and animal sellers who were competing for floor space. They stole the worship of te other nations from God.

Look up a basic map outlaying the various temples – especially the most well knows – the Herodian tempe.

It is only an Ethiopian who has not converted to judaism who were not allowed beyond the outer rooms of the temple.

Ethiopians were not cart blanche expelled from the jewish presence, within or without the temple.

Jerim 38:7 Now when Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, one of the eunuchs which was in the king’s house, heard that they had put Jeremiah in the dungeon; the king then sitting in the gate of Benjamin;
Jerim 38:8 Ebedmelech went forth out of the king’s house, and spake to the king, saying,
Jerim 38:9 My lord the king, these men have done evil in all that they have done to Jeremiah the prophet,

And as for the Ethiopian Enuch you speak of (which one?)–One of them at least shows more wisdom in interpreting the “plain” words of scripture:

Acts 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Acts 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Acts 8:30 And [BPhilip** ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?

I did forget about that, thank you. That makes it all better. She only had leprosy until Arron could please God on her behalf.
There goes the whole idea one can pray to God directly, as he himself asks them to…it would be nice if the OT god could make up his mind.

Hmmm … you are begin to sound like a closet Catholic – the arguments are too easy.

Jews as a whole then, were racist by this way of thinking. They had no choice! God told them the Ethiopian was worthless. In fact, he convinced them they were his chosen people so everyone else was…

Again, There is NO context to delve through to understand an order to kill your child if they are unruly. Its an order.

And again, who actually interpreted this “order” – who wrote it down and in what language – was it God himself who slew these children – if Not then you have no case.

And since when does God “need” anything – let alone a “Hit Man”.

Repeating a mantra does not make it true.

The slaves of the chosen people loved that law that put the worth of a one of their babies OVER a month old as 5 sheckles for a boy, 3 for a girl.

Non-sequiter again – you are not speaking of God directly killing a baby, nor of him wanting it.

God gave them all sorts of conflicting information. It gets even worse when you get out of Genesis.

Anything God says would exist – God can’t lie – so you’ve grabbed the serpent by the sharp end, so to speak.

I hope you meet the child you so worry about having died – someday – and that they do not condemn you in the afterlife. Job had reason to be angry – and not even he said as much as you have.

I have other things to do. Good day.

 

[notsmart]

Killing your kid that is unruly is a must, by stoning.

Numbers 25:6-9
Reward if you do: Numbers 25:10-13
Lets also kill the drunk unruly kid: Deut 21:10

God ordered it, you better do it.

God also wanted some to eat their kid:

Deut 28:53

I forgot the Ethiopian Enuch had a problem getting to temple.
God doesnt want men with damaged testicles or damaged penis to get anywhere close to his holy places. My mistake.
Deut 23:1

Even if you can get to temple, if you ever got God mad, 10 generations after you cant go anymore. So dont get him mad. Stone the brat.

 

[4HisChurch]

This is the same god that dooms us to hell if we don’t worship him? That’s love?

God does not “doom us to hell”. Hell is merely the absence of God for eternity. Those in Hell have chosen not to live with God for eternity.

 

[Mark77]

We get so hung up on our lives here on earth.

If you live 5 minutes or 100 years, it is merely a second in all eternity.

Perhaps God is being merciful, as so often life is truly painful, difficult and unfulfilling.

Isn’t our goal to spend eternity with God in Heaven?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC,) also points out that Scripture, while the “God is the author of Sacred Scripture” (CCC 105), is comprised of 2 senses, “the literal and the spiritual” (CCC 115).

“The spiritual sense, Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs” (CCC 117).

So don’t be discouraged! God loves you.

Mark

 

[nilofc]

This is a heresy from Marcion and the Gnostics…from the days of old.

Ever wonder why the heresies of the old never dies? Because the author of these heresies is the devil. It keeps on showing up its ugly head disguised differently each time.

All of us belong to God. It is only through the passing of the veil can we truly see God face to face. It is on the other side of the tomb we can truly be happy. Without suffering and sacrifice, there is no ressurection. We have to die in ourselves, so we can rise up in Christ.

It is because of our sins that brought forth death and misery into the world. God gave us the sacred but we took it, abuse it and ruin it. And we whine because God is just? Evil is the direct result of our disobedience to God. Do not blame God for evil because it us, you and I who have brought this upon us.

If you experience being a parent, then you know that if you really do love your children, you discipline them.

What gives more glory and happiness to a parent than to see his child choose to do the right thing over the wrong things. Would you be happy if you have a robotic child programmed to do your every whim?

Finally, here’s the deal, God may not allow evil in the world, but He would have to take your free will away from you?

I don’t think you’d agree either.

You see, God gave and respected your independence to choose Him over evil. He loves you that much.

 

[juliamajor]

Killing your kid that is unruly is a must, by stoning.

Numbers 25:6-9
Reward if you do: Numbers 25:10-13 Numbers
Lets also kill the drunk unruly kid: Deut 21:10

God ordered it, you better do it.

God also wanted some to eat their kid:

Deut 28:53

I forgot the Ethiopian Enuch had a problem getting to temple.
God doesnt want men with damaged testicles or damaged penis to get anywhere close to his holy places. My mistake.
Deut 23:1

Even if you can get to temple, if you ever got God mad, 10 generations after you cant go anymore. So dont get him mad. Stone the brat.

According to Jewish Exegetes these customs were more observed in their absence then in their implementation . The same Law stood in Rome. Paterfamilias could legally kill his kid if he was a wise guy or displeased him in any way. As far as I know it was a law that wasn’t taken seriously. Dt28:53is not a commandment but it a prophecy of what will happen if the covenant. A covenant is a sacred contract in the middle east ancient cultures that promised and contained curses and unpleasant happenings for breaking said covenant- on either side of the covenant.Dt21:10 has to do with taken a women captive to wife.women captives usually became concubines- here the law lifts up the women to ‘wife’ status which entititled her to much more rights. Numbers 25:10-13 ,25:6-9 have to be read in context and the whole entire chapter at least should be read.The Israelites in the desert have already apostasized multiple times.This is on the brink of entering a sacred land and they start to indulge themselves in worshiping ‘false gods’Whoring with the women of Baal peor is a euphemism for getting involved with pagan worship .Marriage or dalliances with pagans leads to pagan worship. Read Numbers 22-25 to get the big picture. Memory of Baal Peor is accounted again in Dt4:3,Josh22:17,Hosea 9:10 s 106:28 this was apparently a big deal. they were not to bring the dirt of paganism in with them.Leaders of the group of pagan worshipers were impaled. Phineas sees a Israelite going into a "ha-kubah’ a tent part of a cultic worship area gets ticked off because God has already explained this is wrong and this guy still insists in doing what he’s doing and phineas winds up killing both man and women. Phineas is lauded by God in turning God’s wrath away from the Israelites.This is seen as a support of the divine appointment or the Aaronide priesthood.eunuch were forbidden because they were considered “blemished” &“imperfect” . So just like a sacrifice would be considered unfit because of damage–so would a human being. this would fit in to the mindset of the day and place.ok? Good Luck!