Why does God punish sin but not reward goodness?

[buffalo]

Now, heaven is the ultimate reward for the good. I know this.

But let’s imagine a devout Catholic who lived his whole life devoted to God and did a lot of good.

Before he died, he fell away (which is possible) and committed a mortal sin as well.

Now, why does this one mortal sin bear infinite punishment, but all the good he has done in his life bear no reward?

Doesn’t God punish wickedness but also reward goodness? Why isn’t the good that this person has done rewarded? Why can’t good deeds have infinite consequences too?

The mortal sin would be one that fully rejects God. Basically you are totally turning your back on Him. Persisting in this state makes it pretty hard to get to heaven.

However:

**1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, ** we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

He told Saint Faustina, “The greater the sinner, the greater the right he has to My mercy. My mercy is confirmed in every work of My hands. He who trusts in My mercy will not perish, for all his affairs are Mine, and his enemies will be shattered at the base of My footstool” (Diary, 723). “For the Lord your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away His face from you, if you return to Him” (2 Chr 30:9).
Many of us fall into a spiraling downhill cycle of sin and guilt, believing we could never be forgiven or even approach God because of our pathetic wretchedness and sinfulness. But Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes, saying, “I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance” (Lk 5:32 ). He told Faustina that He is ready to grant graces to souls but few are willing to accept them. “My Heart overflows with great mercy for souls, and especially for poor sinners. If only they could understand that I am the best of Fathers to them and that it is for them that the Blood and Water flowed from My heart as from a fount overflowing with mercy” (Diary, 367). And like the parable of the prodigal son, the Lord will always take us back with open arms, for “But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy” (Titus 3:4-5).

God alone knows your heart.

 

[MPat]

1. God may not send some one to eternal hell, but if he sets up laws that send people then it is the same thing. It is not free choice, if you are forced to do something (repent) to avoid it.

Well, look at the things this way: to be in heaven means to spend the eternity with God as your friend. To be in hell means to spend the eternity away from God. Mortal sin means that we do not want to be friends with God, repentance means that we have changed our mind and want to spend eternity with Him. Ultimately, God honors our choice. Would you say that is not a free choice…? Would it be more free if God forced everyone to stay with Him…?

1. Using contraceptives seems pretty minor to me, or maybe I am mistaken - isn’t that a mortal sin?

Well, that’s the point: just because it looks minor to you doesn’t mean that it really is minor. Mortal sin requires grave matter, full knowledge and full consent - you cannot have a minor sin with that. And speaking about “minor mortal sin” is like speaking about “minor mortal wound” - if it is mortal, it is not so minor. Even if it looks minor for someone.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Thank you for the great answers everyone. I think I understand now.

 

[openmind77]

Well, look at the things this way: to be in heaven means to spend the eternity with God as your friend. To be in hell means to spend the eternity away from God. Mortal sin means that we do not want to be friends with God, repentance means that we have changed our mind and want to spend eternity with Him. Ultimately, God honors our choice. Would you say that is not a free choice…? Would it be more free if God forced everyone to stay with Him…?

True repentance would mean, the sinner really believes what he/she did was wrong. That may be impossible even if they wanted desperately to remain with God. A majority of Catholic women in the US, have used birth control sometime in their lives (some say over 90%) - some of them may repent having done so, but most would have difficulty believing it was wrong. This is no choice at all - it is just wrong of God to say you should go to eternal hell for something like that, Since God can not be wrong - I suggest this is not true at all.

Well, that’s the point: just because it looks minor to you doesn’t mean that it really is minor. Mortal sin requires grave matter, full knowledge and full consent - you cannot have a minor sin with that. And speaking about “minor mortal sin” is like speaking about “minor mortal wound” - if it is mortal, it is not so minor. Even if it looks minor for someone.

Just calling something mortal does not make is serious. Then we could say jay-walking was a serious moving violation and send people to jail for it. I don’t see anything grave or serious about birth control - and I am sure God agrees.

 

[LilyM]

Now, heaven is the ultimate reward for the good. I know this.

But let’s imagine a devout Catholic who lived his whole life devoted to God and did a lot of good.

Before he died, he fell away (which is possible) and committed a mortal sin as well.

Now, why does this one mortal sin bear infinite punishment, but all the good he has done in his life bear no reward?

Doesn’t God punish wickedness but also reward goodness? Why isn’t the good that this person has done rewarded? Why can’t good deeds have infinite consequences too?

The opposite holds as well though.

A man who has sinned mortally countless times in his life will, if he repents and obtains a plenary indulgence (which removes his purgatory) just before dying, not be punished at all for any of his many transgressions and go straight to heaven.

 

[R_C]

Using contraceptives seems pretty minor to me, or maybe I am mistaken - isn’t that a mortal sin?

It is a very grave sin which becomes mortal if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent.

 

[openmind77]

The opposite holds as well though.

A man who has sinned mortally countless times in his life will, if he repents and obtains a plenary indulgence (which removes his purgatory) just before dying, not be punished at all for any of his many transgressions and go straight to heaven.

No disrespect meant, but indulgences at least in some cases are a really ridiculous idea. An adulterer should be only absolved if the person he/she betrayed forgives him. How can the church hand him an indulgence (plenary or not) if the person he hurt does not agree? I can not believe that a just God would go along with this.

 

[R_C]

No disrespect meant, but indulgences at least in some cases are a really ridiculous idea. An adulterer should be only absolved if the person he/she betrayed forgives him. How can the church hand him an indulgence (plenary or not) if the person he hurt does not agree? I can not believe that a just God would go along with this.

The thing is that you do not understand what an indulgence is. It’s not a unilateral absolution without repentance!

If a person is guilty of adultery, he cannot receive an indulgence of the temporal punishment if he has not yet repented and thus God has not lifted the eternal punishment that such a sin merits if one does not repent.

If a person guilty of the sin repents sincerely and offers reparation to the best of his ability and is absolved, the eternal punishment is remitted by the merits of Christ. Then the man may benefit of indulgences to lessen the temporal punishment. And temporal punishment does not end in this life, but is also fulfilled in the next life in the state of purification (or “purgatory”). This we know not just because someone wrote it down, but because throughout the centuries we have direct, concrete experience of this, since the merciful Lord oftentimes allows the souls of purgatory to ask directly or indirectly for our prayer (there is even a museum in Rome with collected evidence of such requests).

When we offend God, we have to offer reparation for the offense. There is a penance to be paid. Of course, without the atonement of Christ nobody would be able to obtain forgiveness of any sin, for even the most minor offense is an infinite offense to the All Holy. But after Christ merited forgiveness for us, we can obtain forgiveness if we sincerely repent, and the Church of Christ offers us indulgences if, after repentance and confession, we also do some very good works - either corporal or spiritual - and the indulgences lessen the burden of reparation that we have to offer. It is a remission of temporary punishment and a way to help ourselves and others to attain the Beatific Vision through a bit less suffering.

An adulterer should be only absolved if the person he/she betrayed forgives him.

No, because the person he hurt is (like me and everyone else) an imperfect creature who because of the hurt and pain may erroneously and wickedly and sinfully decide to never forgive, even if God told us to forgive those who sincerely repent. A priest of God absolves anyone who is sincerely repentant of his mistake, because he has to do God’s will, and God’s will is not that the sinner perish, but that he may repent and be saved. If the person can offer some reparation and be reconciled to the person hurt, this is not just good but necessary for both the sinner and the person hurt. But if nothing can be done and the other person refuses to forgive, God will not abide by such an imperfect behavior moved out of sadness and sorrow rather than from love and charity.

 

[openmind77]

We have to start out by asking “What is/isn’t Heaven?” Heaven isn’t a paradise of self-enjoyment. No 100 virgins are waiting to serve the saved’s every whim. We aren’t playing poker with Abe Lincoln and Marylin Monroe. Heaven ultimately is nothing other than eternal union with God - anything (everything) else that Heaven is flows from this essential property. E.g. God is the source of all life, therefore eternal union with God is eternal life, God is the source of all love, therefore eternal union with God is eternal love, etc. Hell works in reverse. Ultimately, Hell is eternal disunion with God and as God is the source of all life being disunited with Him is eternal death, etc.

Second, what is mortal sin? What does it mean to “fall away” before you die? Mortal sin is sin which kills our soul by separating us from God. When we commit a mortal sin we are rejecting God and our relationship with Him. When we die our souls exit time - we, therefore have no more time to repent and return to a state of union with God (i.e. a state of grace) and thus we are fixed in a permanent state of disunion with God.

But heaven is nothing other than being in a state of eternal union with God. Thus we cannot be in heaven (i.e. in a state of union with God) when we are in a state of mortal sin (i.e. in a state of disunion with God). It’s logically impossible.

Heaven and Hell are not positive rewards and punishments (like breaking the speed limit resulting in a fine) but are natural consequences of our actions (like breaking the speed limit resulting in a traffic accident). We freely choose Heaven or Hell by rejecting or accepting God not just mentally but with our entire hearts, minds, and souls (and actions).

Therefore, what ultimately determines the fate of a soul isn’t comparing its good and evil deeds, but whether or not that soul is united to God at the moment it enters eternity.

Hope that helps a little.

Heaven and hell are not punishment or reward, but the natural consequences of our actions - this sounds like a good explanation. However the teachings of the Church regarding heaven and hell in many cases are completely incompatible with a just, loving, forgiving and merciful God.

For instance if some juvenile (maybe 10 or 12 years old) commits a mortal sin and then gets hit by a bus before he can repent, there is a chance he may be condemned to hell for eternity. This is totally unacceptable and not compatible with a just, loving God - even Texas courts will not sentence a juvenile for life let alone eternity.

On the other hand, the best deal you can get is if you are born and get baptized and then die (of natural causes or someone kills you). You go straight to heaven without even a short time in purgatory (since you did not commit any sins).

These beliefs seem quite absurd and not compatible with a fair, just, loving God.

 

[MPat]

True repentance would mean, the sinner really believes what he/she did was wrong. That may be impossible even if they wanted desperately to remain with God. A majority of Catholic women in the US, have used birth control sometime in their lives (some say over 90%) - some of them may repent having done so, but most would have difficulty believing it was wrong. This is no choice at all - it is just wrong of God to say you should go to eternal hell for something like that, Since God can not be wrong - I suggest this is not true at all.

Once again: mortal sin has three requirements. First, grave matter. Second, full knowledge. Third, full consent. All three must be met. Thus if someone does something that is a sin with grave matter without having a slightest idea that it is a sin, there is no mortal sin involved. And if that “slightest idea” appears, repentance becomes possible. So, no contradiction here.

Just calling something mortal does not make is serious. Then we could say jay-walking was a serious moving violation and send people to jail for it. I don’t see anything grave or serious about birth control - and I am sure God agrees.

I was going to ask how do you know that jay-walking is not a serious violation, but I’m afraid that would get a little too far from the topic…

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Heaven and hell are not punishment or reward, but the natural consequences of our actions - this sounds like a good explanation. However the teachings of the Church regarding heaven and hell in many cases are completely incompatible with a just, loving, forgiving and merciful God.

For instance if some juvenile (maybe 10 or 12 years old) commits a mortal sin and then gets hit by a bus before he can repent, there is a chance he may be condemned to hell for eternity. This is totally unacceptable and not compatible with a just, loving God - even Texas courts will not sentence a juvenile for life let alone eternity.

On the other hand, the best deal you can get is if you are born and get baptized and then die (of natural causes or someone kills you). You go straight to heaven without even a short time in purgatory (since you did not commit any sins).

These beliefs seem quite absurd and not compatible with a fair, just, loving God.

I highly doubt a 12 year old could commit a mortal sin. Do you know what a mortal sin is?

The child would need full knowledge and full consent of his actions. I doubt 12 year olds are independent and developed enough to make fully informed decisions like that.

Any culpability would be reduced considerably for a kid.

And are you saying it is unfair that a baptised baby doesn’t have to go through purgatory?

 

[openmind77]

I highly doubt a 12 year old could commit a mortal sin. Do you know what a mortal sin is?

The child would need full knowledge and full consent of his actions. I doubt 12 year olds are independent and developed enough to make fully informed decisions like that.

Any culpability would be reduced considerably for a kid.

And are you saying it is unfair that a baptised baby doesn’t have to go through purgatory?

Recently in the US a 12 year old boy killed his 8 year old sister with a knife. If he dies now before repenting, are you saying he probably will not be going to hell because he is a kid?

I am not saying it is unfair that the baptized baby does not need to go through purgatory - I am saying it is absurd that the best thing for anyone would be to die like that.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Recently in the US a 12 year old boy killed his 8 year old sister with a knife. If he dies now before repenting, are you saying he probably will not be going to hell because he is a kid?

I am not saying it is unfair that the baptized baby does not need to go through purgatory - I am saying it is absurd that the best thing for anyone would be to die like that.

I don’t know, only God knows the boy’s heart and his culpability.

And that isn’t the ‘best thing’ for anyone to die like that. A plenary indulgence removes all temporal punishment and would put you in the same position as a baptised baby. Not to mention you get the added benefit of actually living a life on the earth.

 

[openmind77]

I don’t know, only God knows the boy’s heart and his culpability.

…

I know that you do not know.

I am saying it is incompatible with the idea of loving, merciful God to send any juvenile to eternal hell for any reason.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

I know that you do not know.

I am saying it is incompatible with the idea of loving, merciful God to send any juvenile to eternal hell for any reason.

And I am saying that this juvenile will not have made a fully informed and culpable decision, in full knowledge of the act’s gravity and the consequences involved. The point is, only God knows the heart, but most likely the kid doesn’t have any culpability, because he’s a kid.

I highly doubt any juveniles will be in hell.

 

[openmind77]

…

I highly doubt any juveniles will be in hell…

I am glad to hear that - if only the church would say so (actually even ONE juvenile in hell, is not compatible with a loving, merciful God),

How about a sinner who dies a sudden death (gets hit by a bus for instance) - shouldn’t he be given a chance to repent?

Not giving him another chance after a sudden death is incompatible with a just, merciful God.

 

[MPat]

I know that you do not know.

I am saying it is incompatible with the idea of loving, merciful God to send any juvenile to eternal hell for any reason.

First, remember: it is not “send to hell”. It is “let to choose hell”.

Second, what is a “juvenile” in this case? You think that it applies to 12-year-old. Let’s add a day - does it still apply? Two days? Three days? A month? A year? Two years? Three years? Where is the cut-off point? At which age you would find some reason to send someone to hell? And why that point?

 

[R_C]

Heaven and hell are not punishment or reward, but the natural consequences of our actions - this sounds like a good explanation. However the teachings of the Church regarding heaven and hell in many cases are completely incompatible with a just, loving, forgiving and merciful God.

For instance if some juvenile (maybe 10 or 12 years old) commits a mortal sin and then gets hit by a bus before he can repent, there is a chance he may be condemned to hell for eternity. This is totally unacceptable and not compatible with a just, loving God - even Texas courts will not sentence a juvenile for life let alone eternity.

You are unaware of very many who died for love of Christ and of their neighbor at 12, and even earlier. Recently the Church initiated the beatification process of a very young Italian seminarian who in the '40s was kidnapped, tortured, and murdered simply because he refused to take off his seminarian cassock, since it represented his love for Christ.

I think it is not prudent to judge God’s Mercy and Justice, and the teachings of the Church of Christ, “pillar and foundation of the truth”, comparing them to “a Texas court”, of all things. Perhaps it would be better to consider that billions have followed them for 20 centuries, making the world a better place.

 

[R_C]

I think it is not prudent to judge God’s Mercy and Justice, and the teachings of the Church of Christ, “pillar and foundation of the truth”, comparing them to “a Texas court”, of all things. Perhaps it would be better to consider that billions have followed them for 20 centuries, making the world a better place.

Also, you insist in criticizing a misunderstanding: the Church teaches that God does not send a soul to hell, but that it is the soul that rejects God’s love.

Age also is not a concern: if a soul reaches the age of reason, it is free to choose between good and evil. This is not a fixed age, but God knows it for each of us.

To misunderstand the doctrine of salvation and of the states of hell, purgatory, and heaven, can lead to wishful thinking and remove lots of worries and ease our conscience, but it will not help us attain heaven and escape hell - it will only make it easier for our spiritual enemies to deceive us.

The point is that if we commit an offense on grave matter, fully knowing what we are doing and yet doing it, we turn our back on God and towards Satan, we reject God’s love and embrace Satan, thus it is written that “we cannot serve two masters” and that “he who sins is of the devil”. In Christ we find forgiveness and light, and we can be washed away from our sins, for it is also written:

Do not be afraid, you have done all this evil; yet do not turn away from the Lord , but serve the Lord with all your heart.

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who reject the light find themselves in darkness. Let us pray that all may repent and be reconciled with the Mighty to Save before they enter eternity, in which one’s choice is fixated and there is no repentance, for time is no more.

 

[openmind77]

First, remember: it is not “send to hell”. It is “let to choose hell”.

Second, what is a “juvenile” in this case? You think that it applies to 12-year-old. Let’s add a day - does it still apply? Two days? Three days? A month? A year? Two years? Three years? Where is the cut-off point? At which age you would find some reason to send someone to hell? And why that point?

I don’t think it is right to send anyone to ‘eternal’ hell at ANY age (though especially so for juveniles) without a possibility of redemption. He should always have a a chance to repent even after death. I don’t believe a loving, forgiving God would condemn anyone for eternity without also an chance for redemption while they are there (of course those who do not ever repent will then have a real choice of whether to stay in hell), Since God is indeed a merciful and loving God, I don’t believe that he condemns anyone for eternal hell (especially for such things as using contraceptives).