Why does God require some people to beg for years, in prayer, for something?

[BobCatholic]

I promise you that other people have it far worse.

I do not take comfort in other people’s suffering. I am not a sadist.
I do not take comfort in my suffering. I am not a masochist.

 

[auctoris]

What if the answer to “Why do humans experience pain and suffering?” is because that’s how we become saints? It may not be something we like, but it very well could be true.

Do you know how all but one of the apostles died? Torture followed by execution. Some were crucified, some were crucified upside down, one was skinned alive, etc. Does that mean God did not love them?

When you find the meaning in your suffering, you will have the answer to your question.

 

[auctoris]

I do not take comfort in other people’s suffering. I am not a sadist.
I do not take comfort in my suffering. I am not a masochist.

Exactly!!!

But when you find the meaning in your suffering and you learn to have joy (not happiness) in your suffering, then you are one step closer to being a saint.

Why did Paul have a thorn in the flesh that God did not take away?

I ask myself, “Why did God take everything away from me?” Why did family members die? Why did I lose all possessions and money? Why did my health go away?

And I know the answer for me. I am still suffering, but I am not angry (or impatient) with God.

 

[Della]

I’m afraid to do that. With God not wanting to talk to me, I have no idea what he expects from me. I think I’m being punished for doing something he refuses to communicate.

As a result I’m afraid to say “I’ll accept what you’ll send my way.” - he sent this bad luck which he refuses to protect me from.

Deliver us from evil…oops, doesn’t apply to me. Every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed, and this is very devastating to me.

I’ll go to a healing service, see God’s wonderful miraculous cures happening around me, but I get bypassed. I pray to be delivered from evil, oh well, game over.

Jesus is walking by. I am Bartimaeus. I yell out for mercy and he keeps walking. Answer is no. Nothing I can do.

So I give up on asking. This is too hard for me.

Deliver us from evil means do not let us sin, not give me whatever I want. I have explained that you are blocking God by insisting he give you what you want instead of accepting what he is giving you. Unless and until you are willing to let go of getting what you want you’ll not only not get it, but you’ll never have peace, either.

 

[auctoris]

Victor Frankl - Man’s Search for Meaning

Should be required reading for everyone.

“Victor Frankl describes life in Nazi death camps and its lessons for spiritual survival. Between 1942 and 1945 Frankl labored in four different camps, including Auschwitz, while his parents, brother, and pregnant wife perished. Based on his own experience and the experiences of others he treated later in his practice, Frankl argues that we cannot avoid suffering but we can choose how to cope with it, find meaning in it, and move forward with renewed purpose.”

Why did Victor Frankl have to endure that? Maybe so he could write a book to provide hope to the whole world?

 

[auctoris]

"His disciples asked him, ‘Teacher, whose sin caused him to be born blind? Was it his own or his parents’ sin?’ Jesus answered, ‘His blindness has nothing to do with his sins or his parents’ sins. He is blind so that God’s power might be seen at work in him.’ (John 9.2–3 GNT)

“Before you punished me, I used to go wrong, but now I obey your word. How good you are—how kind! Teach me your commands. The proud have told lies about me, but with all my heart I obey your instructions. They have no understanding, but I find pleasure in your law. My punishment was good for me, because it made me learn your commands.” (Ps 119.67–71 GNT)

“We also boast of our troubles, because we know that trouble produces endurance, endurance brings God’s approval, and his approval creates hope. This hope does not disappoint us, for God has poured out his love into our hearts by means of the Holy Spirit, who is God’s gift to us.” (Rom 5.3–5 GNT)

“Endure what you suffer as being a father’s punishment; your suffering shows that God is treating you as his children. Was there ever a child who was not punished by his father?” (Heb 12.7 GNT)

 

[CatholicRaven]

It most definitely is wasted. Continuing to ask after “no” is selfish, and a waste of time. It is stubbornness. It is not wanting to conform to God’s will, which is evil.

You’re right. I meant that the prayer we pray before we get an answer, even if the answer turns out to be “no,” was not wasted. I did not mean to imply that we should keep asking for something which we know to be against God’s will. But I don’t believe that St. Monica got a “no.” Otherwise, Augustine would not have eventually converted.

God is merciful. We don’t always see that. We blame God for everything bad that comes our way, and rarely credit Him for our blessings, regardless of how good we’ve got it. We think we’re being punished when something hurts or it’s a struggle that we think we can’t handle. It’s natural to think that way, even though it’s not realistic. It’s hard to see clearly when you’re in the midst of the storm.

You’re making a lot of assumptions about what God is thinking, and your conclusions are making you fearful of trusting in Him. It also makes me wonder what your own father or father-figure was like, whether he tended more toward harsh punishment than mercy (though you don’t have to answer that here). Fear is hard. But courage isn’t the absence of fear. It’s doing what is right, in spite of the fear. And God will give you the strength to do that if you ask Him for help.

It’s okay to be afraid because you don’t know what more God will ask of you–you can even tell God that you are afraid. But trying to control everything yourself, trying to avoid God (such as by avoiding persistent prayer), and blaming God for your struggles is not going to help you. It’s not going to make it all go away, or get you through it any sooner. And it might make you feel worse. I hate to see you making it harder on yourself than it already is, but I know I can’t force you to realize that you are loved by God. You have to come to that conclusion yourself.

Have you spoken to a priest or Spiritual Director about your struggles? They may have some insight that could help you, that we would not have.

 

[pablope]

In order to obey, I have to know.

If I don’t know, I can’t obey.

So if God would only talk to me and guide me.

Nope.

I’m punished, and there’s nothing I can do.

Hmmm…no, you don’t have to know…you just need a submission of will.

From the Perfect Joy of St. Francis:

stfrancisspeaks.blogspot.com/2009/02/francis-perfect-joy.html

Francis then says: . . . if we endure all those insults and cruelties and rebuffs patiently and without being ruffled or murmuring at him; and we humbly and charitably think that this porter really knows us but that God is having him talk up to us that way: Oh, brother Leo, write that there is perfect joy in that!

Listen to Francis’ enthusiasm when he says, “Oh brother Leo, write that perfect joy is in that!” There is no joy in suffering or in seeing others act poorly toward us. HOWEVER, there is perfect joy in seeing things the way Francis did. There is perfect joy in controling ourselves (disciplining our flesh and ‘crucifying’ it) and in understanding that God is taking care of us - punishing us, lovingly, for our sins and directing us in what is right. There is joy in not seeing evil in another but interpreting their words and actions as the (loving) words and actions of God - words that appear to be horrible but actually bring about healing, forgiveness and life. That IS perfect joy! That is why Francis welcomed these painful and hard experiences - they brought PERFECT JOY!

 

[ethereality]

For those who are telling us to “let it go”, “trust in God”, “come to the conclusion that God loves you”, “know that God is merciful”, “be joyful in suffering”, “accept your suffering as a means to grow in character and in virtue”: How does God interact with you as a Father? How do you distinguish between divine agency and human agency? between the Holy Spirit and your own thoughts?

and aurelius / auctorius whatever your name is, stop posing questions and actually say what you intend for the reader to answer.

It should be obvious why many don’t want to wait a long time without a clear answer from God: Because we suffer, we want to stop suffering, God can stop that suffering, and we are told to regard God as our Father, which leads us by natural implication to regard Him as similar to a human father, ie One who will communicate plainly, directly, clearly, without any mental gymnastics or guessing. Fatherhood means personal interaction and personal communication. It does not mean “try to figure out these books I wrote thousands of years ago with the help of a spiritual director”.

 

[esieffe]

Because it is like a bully doing the 'keep away" game, until the requisite amount of begging and groveling is done.

What kind of Father does that?

One with a son who is pretty willful perhaps? I really can’t believe that I just read this. I hope you are just very young.

 

[auctoris]

and aurelius / auctorius whatever your name is, stop posing questions and actually say what you intend for the reader to answer.

I’ll pass that memo on to Socrates. The questions are what I mean. I’m not here to give full proof answers. The only way to get answers is to ask questions. He obviously was not asking the right questions because his concern really wasn’t about prayer it was about suffering. I gave him places to find the answers as I’m not going to re-write entire books on here.

Fatherhood means personal interaction and personal communication. It does not mean “try to figure out these books I wrote thousands of years ago with the help of a spiritual director”.

“Endure what you suffer as being a father’s punishment; your suffering shows that God is treating you as his children. Was there ever a child who was not punished by his father?” (Heb 12.7 GNT)

Look at Jesus, all of the apostles, and Job. Look at virtually every saint. If God’s purpose is to eliminate all human pain and suffering, he’s doing a very, very bad job.

"Talk to me about the truth of religion and I’ll listen gladly. Talk to me about the duty of religion and I’ll listen submissively. But don’t come talking to me about the consolations of religion or I shall suspect that you don’t understand. "–C.S. Lewis

So my questions still stand. Why did God not create perfect creatures living in paradise? Why did he do it this way? Me giving you an answer will be completely worthless and totally unsatisfying for you. So, as I did in a previous post, I can tell you where you can find the answer for yourself. And finding the answer yourself is part of the process in both healing (elevating suffering) and growing.

 

[BobCatholic]

It also makes me wonder what your own father or father-figure was like, whether he tended more toward harsh punishment than mercy (though you don’t have to answer that here).

My father was a kind, loving guy, who was very encouraging. He was an alcoholic, but never abused me. During my life he was the only one who said “I’m proud of you”. My mom, on the other hand, was distant, and never said I did anything good.

Sometimes I need to know I’m on the right track, sometimes I need encouragement. Not to feed my ego, but to keep from dropping off the planet.

It’s okay to be afraid because you don’t know what more God will ask of you–you can even tell God that you are afraid.

Yes, but he doesn’t care.

But trying to control everything yourself, trying to avoid God (such as by avoiding persistent prayer), and blaming God for your struggles is not going to help you.

If I’m required to suffer and carry the cross, and I have no help, I’m on my own. So yes, I must be in control because ONLY ME is carrying the cross.

Have you spoken to a priest or Spiritual Director about your struggles? They may have some insight that could help you, that we would not have.

I’m unable to find a spiritual director. This is part of the bad luck. I’m thrown into a pit of suffering without help.

One with a son who is pretty willful perhaps? I really can’t believe that I just read this. I hope you are just very young.

I’m not young, but you’re right, I am willful. I have a self. The self is evil. I have my own will, and it is nothing but evil. I can never do anything right in God’s eyes, that’s why he won’t talk to me.

I am nothing but a worthless speck of dust.

Hmmm…no, you don’t have to know…you just need a submission of will.

I have to know because I’m already held responsible by God. He’s punishing me already. So I don’t want to get punished, so I want to do what he wants to avoid punishment.

Deliver us from evil means do not let us sin, not give me whatever I want. I have explained that you are blocking God by insisting he give you what you want instead of accepting what he is giving you. Unless and until you are willing to let go of getting what you want you’ll not only not get it, but you’ll never have peace, either.

Deliver us from evil means “protect us from the devil” or “here comes evil, hide me in the shadow of your wings!” or “The devil wants to hurt us, protect us from him”

What do I want? I want to get closer to God and stop getting punished. I know, that’s a horrible thing. It must be, since every attempt at getting closer to God has failed for me.