Why does God seem silent today?

[BlueShadow123]

We’re under grace period now.

 

[SFO]

While that wouldn’t instantly prove that all of your religion’s supernatural claims are true, it would be one heck of a start, and it would sure shut the mouths of skeptics like me. It would tell us beyond all doubt that there is something special about this one particular religion, something special that the other religions don’t have. We would have to do further studies to determine exactly what it is, and naturally, every scientist on earth would want to study it. Research grant money would pour in like crazy.

Chance are, even if this happened, people would still find something wrong with the way the study was conducted, how many people participated, the landscape of the chosen location, the agenda of the group conducting the experiment, etc. I don’t think it will be long until people realize that some scientists who assume a role of power can manipulate their data and results just as governments and the like continue to do around the world.

Until prayer affects you personally, you will unfortunately always be limited in your view of what it is and how it affects the emotional, spiritual, intellectual and physical world around us.

 

[tonyrey]

We have numerous examples in the Old Testament of people dying for their sins.

People still die for their sins but their deaths are often attributed to natural causes rather than moral corruption.

Why is it today we have priests molesting children, child rapists, etc…that live long lives with seemingly no punishment whatsoever? Millions of aborted babies happen constantly everyday all of the world, and the abortionists receive no punishment?

]They receive no obvious or immediate punishment…

We also have examples of prophets proving God’s existence by mocking the other religions of the day stating “Maybe your god is on vacation or asleep?”

They still do!

I have heard atheist debates where the contenders say “God we want you to show yourself?” If the Christian debater were to use the same, why wouldn’t God show himself today?

He didn’t always do so in the past.

I do understand that God does not have to listen humans and obey us when we ask to him to give us a sign or a proof that he is there, but it would be comforting.

Jesus showed us by His example that we shouldn’t expected to be constantly comforted…

When we pray for healing like Jesus taught us to do. In faith believing that we will receive what we ask, it appears that nothing happens, even for the simplest and minor of ailments.

God is not a slot machine!

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why they think God is remaining so silent? Humankind is in utter downfall. Morals are declining at an alarming rate and people are openly and proud of it. Homosexual so-called self-proclaimed bishops in the other denominations read from the Scriptures, preach in Gods name, and perform “abominable” acts later in the homes after doing so just to return to their church the following day and proclaim His word. If this would have happened in the Old Testament times it seems that God would have struck them dead, but today there is nothing.

It is unlikely every event recorded in the Old Testament is literally true.

 

[vz71]

I propose to you that we simply have not found the proper method for scientifically measuring the effect of prayer.

To claim otherwise is to leap beyond what is scientifically known and into the realm of faith.

There have been studies of the efficacy of prayer. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer)

You may debate the conclusions to draw from the studies, but the results are pretty clear.

Actually, I read the article and am at a loss how you can claim the conclusions are clear.
Most of the article makes very clear controversy over method of testing, interpretation of result, etc.

My conclusion stands. To claim we have the proper tools to measure the actions of a being outside creation is to leap outside of our science and into the realm of faith.

 

[AntiTheist]

To claim we have the proper tools to measure the actions of a being outside creation is to leap outside of our science and into the realm of faith.

No one’s claiming that.

What I was saying is that in order to be able to support the claim “prayer works!” you need to be able to demonstrate it. If you cannot demonstrate it – or if, as you’re saying, it’s not demonstrable at all – then nobody has any grounds for making the claim that prayer works.

 

[davidv]

No one’s claiming that.

What I was saying is that in order to be able to support the claim “prayer works!” you need to be able to demonstrate it. If you cannot demonstrate it – or if, as you’re saying, it’s not demonstrable at all – then nobody has any grounds for making the claim that prayer works.

By demanding a science experiment, you are in fact claiming “that”.

 

[vz71]

No one’s claiming that.

By demanding a science experiment, you are in fact claiming “that”.

Apologies all around.

I thought that the demand made was perfectly clear.
Apparently not for everyone.

 

[AntiTheist]

By demanding a science experiment, you are in fact claiming “that”.

No, I’m not – let’s say, for the sake of argument, that I acknowledge that nobody has any means of testing the actions of your god.

Then that means that we have no way of demonstrating any of your claims, which means that we have no good reason for accepting your claims as true.

See that? If we start from the assumption that we cannot test your god, we come to the same conclusion: that there’s no good reason to believe. Hence: I am not asserting the claim that I can test your god.

EDIT: To be clear, I am asserting that you cannot demonstrate your god. Whether your failure to demonstrate him is due to 1) the impossibility of testing your god or 2) the failure of any and all tests is irrelevant.

 

[vz71]

No, I’m not – let’s say, for the sake of argument, that I acknowledge that nobody has any means of testing the actions of your god.

Then that means that we have no way of demonstrating any of your claims, which means that we have no good reason for accepting your claims as true.

OK, you may claim that if you wish.
However there are vast numbers of people that pray on a daily basis and are absolutely convinced of its effects.

See that? If we start from the assumption that we cannot test your god, we come to the same conclusion: that there’s no good reason to believe. Hence: I am not asserting the claim that I can test your god.

What I see is someone so anxious to prove their point that they are willing to put words in the mouths of other people.
The arrogance demonstrated here by the simple statement “we come to the same conclusion” is clear.
NO, we do NOT arrive at the same conclusions.

Where you are claiming no measurable effect therefore no effect, I see plenty of effect, none of which can be measured.

EDIT: To be clear, I am asserting that you cannot demonstrate your god. Whether your failure to demonstrate him is due to 1) the impossibility of testing your god or 2) the failure of any and all tests is irrelevant.

Your request for a scientific game to reduce God to a sample that can be measured within the finite world of science is about as nonsensical as trying to order a cup of fear (or love) at McDonalds.

 

[AntiTheist]

OK, you may claim that if you wish.
However there are vast numbers of people that pray on a daily basis and are absolutely convinced of its effects.

There are also vast numbers of people who are absolutely convinced of the effects of wearing “energy crystals” and employing “The Secret” or wearing dumb bracelets that supposedly regulate your body’s energy patterns. There are also vast numbers of people who are absolutely convinced that the psychic cold-reader con-artist they went to was really in touch with dear departed Aunt Sally.

That people are personally convinced that something is “effective” is irrelevant. If you want to make the claim that “X works,” you need to be able to demonstrate X.

Where you are claiming no measurable effect therefore no effect, I see plenty of effect, none of which can be measured.

If you can’t measure the effects, you have no grounds for saying that they are actually effects caused by the method that you assert.

Again, people who believe in the power of wearing energy crystals could say the same things.

NO, we do NOT arrive at the same conclusions.

I was using the royal “we.”

 

[vz71]

If you can’t measure the effects, you have no grounds for saying that they are actually effects caused by the method that you assert.

Inability to measure an effect does not mean there is no effect.

Same principle I mentioned earlier…Until Archimedes came along, we could not measure the volume of irregular shapes.
But that certainly does not mean these irregular shapes did not have volume, only that we had an inability to measure it.

So let’s continue with this. If we never could gain this ability, does it negate the volume of the irregular shape?

 

[AntiTheist]

Same principle I mentioned earlier…Until Archimedes came along, we could not measure the volume of irregular shapes.
But that certainly does not mean these irregular shapes did not have volume, only that we had an inability to measure it.

So let’s continue with this. If we never could gain this ability, does it negate the volume of the irregular shape?

You keep bringing this up as if it supports what you’re trying to claim. It doesn’t.

If no one ever discovered the ability to measure the volume of irregular shapes, no one could possibly claim to know the volume of an irregular shape.

The claim “I know the volume of this irregular shape!” cannot be made unless you first have the ability to measure said volume. If you were to claim that you drew a shape “whose volume is outside of our mortal abilities to measure,” then no one could ever make the claim that they know what its volume is.

Probably the point that you’re clumsily trying to make is that we knew irregular shapes had volume even though we couldn’t measure that volume – which is not relevant here. Volume is defined as the space within a shape; irregular shapes have volume by definition. It’s completely different than the claim you’re trying to defend on this thread, which is that a supernatural intelligence intervenes in nature by granting prayers.

 

[JDaniel]

We have numerous examples in the Old Testament of people dying for their sins.

Why is it today we have priests molesting children, child rapists, etc…that live long lives with seemingly no punishment whatsoever? Millions of aborted babies happen constantly everyday all of the world, and the abortionists receive no punishment?

We also have examples of prophets proving God’s existence by mocking the other religions of the day stating “Maybe your god is on vacation or asleep?”

I have heard atheist debates where the contenders say “God we want you to show yourself?” If the Christian debater were to use the same, why wouldn’t God show himself today?

I do understand that God does not have to listen humans and obey us when we ask to him to give us a sign or a proof that he is there, but it would be comforting.

When we pray for healing like Jesus taught us to do. In faith believing that we will receive what we ask, it appears that nothing happens, even for the simplest and minor of ailments.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why they think God is remaining so silent? Humankind is in utter downfall. Morals are declining at an alarming rate and people are openly and proud of it. Homosexual so-called self-proclaimed bishops in the other denominations read from the Scriptures, preach in Gods name, and perform “abominable” acts later in the homes after doing so just to return to their church the following day and proclaim His word. If this would have happened in the Old Testament times it seems that God would have struck them dead, but today there is nothing.

Welcome, TV!

Why do you think He is silent? He is filling the thousands of posts herein today. There are thousands, perhaps millions, of other posts around the world that are being filled with His instantiations through our own words. I’d say He’s quite vociferous.

God bless,
jd

 

[vz71]

If no one ever discovered the ability to measure the volume of irregular shapes, no one could possibly claim to know the volume of an irregular shape.

Right. But we are not claiming to be able to measure the effects of prayers. Only that there is one.
No one can tell the true effects of their prayer save God himself.

 

[AntiTheist]

Right. But we are not claiming to be able to measure the effects of prayers. Only that there is one.

I know. But I’m saying that you cannot claim that they are effects of prayer (i.e. that they are caused by the prayer, or rather a supernatural being acting on prayer) unless you demonstrate this in some form.

I’m saying that the claim “an irregular shape has a volume” is an entirely different type of claim than “a god grants my prayers.” The former claim is definitionally true (all shapes, by definition, have volume), not a causal claim that needs to be demonstrated, like the latter claim. It’s not a valid comparison.

Maybe this example will help. Let’s say I claim that I can do a rain dance and make it rain. So I do a rain dance, and a short time later, it begins to rain. Is the rain an effect of my dance? Do you think that I have a solid basis on which to believe that my dance is the cause of the rain?

The point I’m making is that you can’t just take phenomena and label them “effects” – you have to actually demonstrate that doing the action causes the effect. That is why I proposed an experiment whereby you have members of different religions praying for the same things.

If there really is a god and there really is only one true religion, then it should be trivially easy to demonstrate that the prayers of one particular group come to pass with much more frequency than some other group.

The fact that you can’t demonstrate it means that you have no basis for claiming that it is an effect.

 

[SFO]

Here’s a summary for anyone catching up on the thread:

AT: Prayer is pretty silly and you cannot prove it does anything or has any effect because you can’t measure its so-called effects.

vz: Actually, you should ask those who pray. They will tell you it has effects on them, sometimes significantly so.

(repeat ad nauseam)

You’re welcome.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I don’t think God seems silent today except to those who refuse to listen. Atheists have closed their hearts as well as their minds to God. For them God is more than silent. God is dead. For those who desire that there be no God, there is no proof possible that God exists. You could perform a hundred miracles with no effect. Atheism has nothing to do with seeing or hearing God. It is really about desiring not to hear or see Him. The atheist keeps demanding proof, when the proof cannot be given to him. It must arise from within him. He must learn desire long before he can learn conviction.

 

[AntiTheist]

Here’s a summary for anyone catching up on the thread:

AT: Prayer is pretty silly and you cannot prove it does anything or has any effect because you can’t measure its so-called effects.

vz: Actually, you should ask those who pray. They will tell you it has effects on them, sometimes significantly so.

AT: Then you should ask those who wear “power crystals” and practice “The Secret” and go to psychics, and they will tell you all about the effects – sometimes significant – that these things have.

The fact of the matter is that people are really good at talking themselves into thinking that all kinds of things have “effects.” The only way to know whether it really has some kind of an effect is to test it. And if it can’t be tested, then you have no basis for claiming that it has an effect.

 

[vz71]

Here’s a summary for anyone catching up on the thread:

AT: Prayer is pretty silly and you cannot prove it does anything or has any effect because you can’t measure its so-called effects.

vz: Actually, you should ask those who pray. They will tell you it has effects on them, sometimes significantly so.

(repeat ad nauseam)

You’re welcome.

for a brief moment I could actually hear my father screaming at those of us arguing in the back seat.
thanks.

 

[SFO]

AT: Then you should ask those who wear “power crystals” and practice “The Secret” and go to psychics, and they will tell you all about the effects – sometimes significant – that these things have.

The fact of the matter is that people are really good at talking themselves into thinking that all kinds of things have “effects.” The only way to know whether it really has some kind of an effect is to test it. And if it can’t be tested, then you have no basis for claiming that it has an effect.

chuckles Thank you for proving my summary valid!