Why does God seem silent today?

[mangy_dog]

We have numerous examples in the Old Testament of people dying for their sins.

Why is it today we have priests molesting children, child rapists, etc…that live long lives with seemingly no punishment whatsoever? Millions of aborted babies happen constantly everyday all of the world, and the abortionists receive no punishment?

We also have examples of prophets proving God’s existence by mocking the other religions of the day stating “Maybe your god is on vacation or asleep?”

I have heard atheist debates where the contenders say “God we want you to show yourself?” If the Christian debater were to use the same, why wouldn’t God show himself today?

I do understand that God does not have to listen humans and obey us when we ask to him to give us a sign or a proof that he is there, but it would be comforting.

When we pray for healing like Jesus taught us to do. In faith believing that we will receive what we ask, it appears that nothing happens, even for the simplest and minor of ailments.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why they think God is remaining so silent? Humankind is in utter downfall. Morals are declining at an alarming rate and people are openly and proud of it. Homosexual so-called self-proclaimed bishops in the other denominations read from the Scriptures, preach in Gods name, and perform “abominable” acts later in the homes after doing so just to return to their church the following day and proclaim His word. If this would have happened in the Old Testament times it seems that God would have struck them dead, but today there is nothing.

A simple observation would be that,

In the quiet and the still…there - He is.

Perhaps the cacophony of worldly sights and sounds get in the way of hearing His voice.

Like someone moving their lips at you from across a crowded party room. You see His lips moving but you can’t make out what He is saying…unless you seek silence and stillness.

Even in our hearts and souls we’ve lost the ability to be silent and still…

Aquiesce anima mea in Deus salus mea.

 

[vz71]

The fact that you can’t demonstrate it means that you have no basis for claiming that it is an effect.

So we have no business claiming there is a specific volume to some container because we cannot measure it?

Do you also claim that love does not exist for a lack of a specific way to measure it?
How about hate?

There is much more to God’s creation then your nicely parsed science experiment.

 

[AntiTheist]

So we have no business claiming there is a specific volume to some container because we cannot measure it?

I have explained – twice now, this is the third time – that “a container has a volume” is a claim that is definitionally true. It is not a causal claim like “A god answers my prayers.”

Do you understand the difference between these two types of claims? Do you understand that there are different standards of evidence involved in evaluating them? In fact, the former claim does not require evidence because it is true by definition.

I’ll address the rest of your questions, but only after you acknowledge that “a container has volume” is an invalid comparison to the claim you are trying to defend.

 

[mangy_dog]

We are not listening to God.

He is talking - today, yesterday and always…we’re not listening.

I rest my case.

 

[vz71]

I have explained – twice now, this is the third time – that “a container has a volume” is a claim that is definitionally true. It is not a causal claim like “A god answers my prayers.”

Sure it is. You just deny it based upon a lack of tangible evidence.
Nevertheless, history records its effects and I have witnessed them firsthand.

Do you understand that there are different standards of evidence involved in evaluating them? In fact, the former claim does not require evidence because it is true by definition.

I understand that you are treating them with two different standards.
In one case, you are in complete denial for lack of evidence, in the other you are not for lack of evidence.
It would seem to me that your standards of evidence are becoming rather arbitrary.
Unless, of course, you also deny the existence of love, hate, fear, etc.

I’ll address the rest of your questions, but only after you acknowledge that “a container has volume” is an invalid comparison to the claim you are trying to defend.

It is not. At its basis, your claim is that a lack of evidence is evidence of lacking.
The analogy shows this false.
I figured once people can see a physical example of the fallacy in your claim, they will also see the same in the non-physical. I doubt you ready for that jump.
Nevertheless, I made mention of it here.
Do you deny love as well?
Fear? Hate?
How about exasperation? I know I have seen evidence of exasperation in your writings, but of course, there is no way to measure it.

 

[LongJohnSilver]

On the Wiki article on the Efficacy of prayer it reads:

“…in 1571 Pope Pius V called for all of Europe to pray the Rosary for victory at the Battle of Lepanto, in which the Christian belligerents included the Papal States. Trophies from the battle are now enshrined in various Christian churches which attribute the victory to the massive prayers. For a scientific test, the battle would need to be repeated several times, in similar weather conditions, with each side refraining from prayer, or performing different types of prayers with varying degrees of effort over different time periods.”

I could laugh all day reading this. I think this argument very clearly shows how ridiculous it is to apply scientific standards to something that is outside its realm, and how people like AntiTheist have no clue of what prayer is, means and does.

 

[rick43235]

I was using the royal “we.”

 

[vz71]

I was using the royal “we.”

I think he means “Author’s ‘we’” or perhaps the “Editor’s ‘we’”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We

 

[thecatholicamer]

Like many of you have said already we are a people distancing ourselves from God. He is always there but if we do not look we will not see. And a simple answer of people dying for their sins the answer is that they do. They condemn themselves to eternal death in which we are not with God in eternity. We are in the same path as the ancient Rome’s where, the path of self centeredness and putting our civic leaders as our God. As I am sadly to say is the case now in America. I do not like our current Presidents politics or morals but the thing I hate is how fast people made him in to some deity for the sake of what they call change.

 

[GratefulFred]

Those who think God is silent are not listening.

Faith is a Gift from God. Some have it and nuture it. Some had it but rejected it. Some do not have it because we have it have not tried well enough to share it (Go and teach all nations) Some do not have it and do not want it.

Many who have some faith are blinded by this material world. It is hard to stay true to God’s commands with all the alure of this world and the many who tempt us to live this life as if there is no life after this one.

Jesus Christ and George Washington. I have not seen either man, but I have reliable reports that they did exist on earth and what they accomplished that benefits me directly today. To reject Christ is equal to rejecting George and boys who founded the America we enjoy and should try to preserve.

 

[AntiTheist]

It is not.

Okie doke. If you’re not going to be intellectually honest, I won’t even bother addressing your other questions. There’s some quote about pearls and swine that seems appropriate here…

GratefulFred (cute name):

Jesus Christ and George Washington. I have not seen either man, but I have reliable reports that they did exist on earth and what they accomplished that benefits me directly today. To reject Christ is equal to rejecting George

What is this, the thread of invalid analogies? The evidence that Christ existed – and by “Christ,” I mean the guy depicted in the Gospels, magic and all – is contained entirely in four books authored many decades after his supposed life by unknown authors. He is also mentioned – as part of the beliefs of early Christians – by a few historians a hundred years later. There’s not a single, contemporary, eyewitness account of Christ.

Contrast this with Washington – we have items that he owned, a house he lived in, texts he authored in his own hand, legislative records from when he was president of the United States, and – on top of all of this – descriptions of him given by his contemporaries.

To say that these claims are comparable is crazy.

 

[vz71]

Okie doke. If you’re not going to be intellectually honest, I won’t even bother addressing your other questions. There’s some quote about pearls and swine that seems appropriate here…

I have been honest.
And have also addressed every question.

If you cannot answer for the deficiencies in your own logic, I understand.

Sour grapes.

 

[vz71]

Contrast this with Washington – we have items that he owned, a house he lived in, texts he authored in his own hand, legislative records from when he was president of the United States, and – on top of all of this – descriptions of him given by his contemporaries.

To say that these claims are comparable is crazy.

Agreed, Washington and Jesus cannot be compared in any real way.
Washington was merely a man.
No one gave up their lives for him.
No one underwent torture to deny him and continued to the point of death for him.

But the analogy spoken of still works. Mainly because the only similarity being worked with is the fact that they both were real people in history.

The reality is that both existed.

Frank Sheed in his book Theology and Sanity pointed out well the state of those that deny reality.

 

[tonyrey]

The evidence that Christ existed – and by “Christ,” I mean the guy depicted in the Gospels, magic and all – is contained entirely in four books authored many decades after his supposed life by unknown authors. He is also mentioned – as part of the beliefs of early Christians – by a few historians a hundred years later. There’s not a single, contemporary, eyewitness account of Christ.

“the guy depicted in the Gospels, magic and all” contravenes rule 7:

“Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.”

One could just as easily say “Antitheist” depicts the superstitious guy who believes in the magical power of things to exist by themselves for no reason or purpose whatsoever…

Amongst others the Roman historian Tacitus wrote in his Annals c. 116 AD:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite punishments on a class hated for their disgraceful acts, called Chrestians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.”

Eye-witness accounts are far from being the sole - or even the most valuable - evidence of the existence of Jesus. His teaching epitomised in His life and death is the basis of the values of modern civilisation enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. For two thousand years His words and example have inspired countless men and women of every race and colour to become His followers and dedicate themselves to helping the poor, needy and afflicted in every country of the world. It is absurd to think all this is the result of the fanciful adventures of a fictional character invented by superstitious men in an obscure province of the Roman Empire…

 

[BlueShadow123]

You should be lucky he seems silent anyways.

Half of the people who post on this site would have already been killed for their sins long ago.

 

[_Locke]

vz71:

I have been honest.

Maybe you have, but you’re sorely mistaken. I’ll lay this out simply.
Claim 1: There is a specific volume to some container even if we cannot measure it.
Claim 2: God answers prayers, even if we cannot measure them.
Claim 1 is true by the definition of the word container. Even if we can’t measure the volume, we know it exists. However, we cannot say that by the definition of the word prayer, God will answer it. So these claims are not similar. The first can be said true merely through logic, the second only through evidence.

vz71:

If you cannot answer for the deficiencies in your own logic, I understand.

Awfully rich coming from someone who said, just two pages ago, “there are vast numbers of people that pray on a daily basis and are absolutely convinced of its effects”, a blatant argumentum ad populum. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)

vz71:

But the analogy spoken of still works. Mainly because the only similarity being worked with is the fact that they both were real people in history.

The reality is that both existed.

The reason the analogy does not work is because there is vastly more evidence for one than the other, regardless of whether both existed. You must at least concede that.

vz71:

No one gave up their lives for him.
No one underwent torture to deny him and continued to the point of death for him.

How is that relevant? Muslim suicide bombers believe their deaths will result in paradise; I could name a dozen examples. That someone is willing to die for a cause shows nothing as to its truth. It hardly puts Jesus on par with Washington in terms of historicity.

tonyrey:

Eye-witness accounts are far from being the sole - or even the most valuable - evidence of the existence of Jesus. His teaching epitomised in His life and death is the basis of the values of modern civilisation enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity.

Do you have anything to back this up, or just a vague similarity you can draw between the teachings of Jesus and the UN Declaration of Human Rights? Why not say they have a basis in the Enlightenment principles of liberty, equality, and fraternity?

tonyrey:

It is absurd to think all this is the result of the fanciful adventures of a fictional character invented by superstitious men in an obscure province of the Roman Empire…

And how do you explain the effects of Islam, or any other religion which isn’t true? I think the “fanciful adventures of a fictional character” can result in quite a lot. (As an aside, I’m not claiming that Jesus the man was fictional, but that Jesus the divine miracle worker was fictional. As I’m sure you hold that Muhammad, prophet of God and countless others are fictional.)

BlueShadow123:

You should be lucky he seems silent anyways.

Half of the people who post on this site would have already been killed for their sins long ago.

Thank you for the unsubstantiated (and threatening) assertion.

 

[vz71]

The reason the analogy does not work is because there is vastly more evidence for one than the other, regardless of whether both existed. You must at least concede that.

You are right.
There is vastly more evidence for the existence of Jesus then there is for Washington.

And since we know for certain of Washington in history, then we can be even more certain with the larger body of evidence for Jesus.

 

[vz71]

Maybe you have, but you’re sorely mistaken. I’ll lay this out simply.
Claim 1: There is a specific volume to some container even if we cannot measure it.
Claim 2: God answers prayers, even if we cannot measure them.
Claim 1 is true by the definition of the word container. Even if we can’t measure the volume, we know it exists. However, we cannot say that by the definition of the word prayer, God will answer it. So these claims are not similar. The first can be said true merely through logic, the second only through evidence.

No one here mentioned God answering prayers, I simply noted the fact of the effect of prayer.
The attempt to limit the playing field is tacit concession of the argument.
Concession noted.
Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[vz71]

You should be lucky he seems silent anyways.

Half of the people who post on this site would have already been killed for their sins long ago.

Thank you for the unsubstantiated (and threatening) assertion.

In order to read threat into that post, one must concede to the authority of the one doing the judging and feel some measure of inadequecy in the face of final judgement.

Are we feeling guilty about something here??

 

[SFO]

Prediction:

AT will leave this thread unconvinced of the effects of prayer.

Everyone else who believes in the power of prayer will continue to do so.

Another issue solved by CAF!