Why does God sometimes not punish the sinner but people related to the sinner?

[DetectiveNiko]

David’s child was a new born infant. He therefore, went to heaven when he died.

The children who died before the age of reason would not be guilty of any sin. The firstborn who died after the age of reason would be subject to judgement in accordance with their works.

I have one problem with this though, I asked this on other forums before and I always got conflicting answers.
If God lets some children get a free pass to heaven without them choosing between God or something else, how is it just to the many people that have an ordeal through their whole life to choose this ?
They just instantly get it, they are not even given the chance to sin.
Not saying I am jelous, just that I always thought that everyone has to choose to love God willingly, its the whole point why God gave us free will.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Niko!

That’s like saying that everyone should get a free pass.

Consider the comparison:
a) a child that knows not good/evil vs. b) a child/adult who has learned about good/evil and chooses to do evil.

How can we demand “freewill” on a child whose development was that of a few years/months/days/hours or in the womb?

It’s like applying the death penalty on everyone regardless of their ability to know and commit sin and regardless of their willingness to Obey or reject God–conversely, it would be the same irony if all get to go free because “some” are not capable of exercising their “freewill.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Well what I meant is, shouldn’t the kids that die in that state be given some place to grow up or something until they can learn the difference between good and evil, instead of immidately being sent to heaven ?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

David’s child was a new born infant. He therefore, went to heaven when he died.

The children who died before the age of reason would not be guilty of any sin. The firstborn who died after the age of reason would be subject to judgement in accordance with their works.

I have one problem with this though, I asked this on other forums before and I always got conflicting answers.
If God lets some children get a free pass to heaven without them choosing between God or something else, how is it just to the many people that have an ordeal through their whole life to choose this ?
They just instantly get it, they are not even given the chance to sin.
Not saying I am jelous, just that I always thought that everyone has to choose to love God willingly, its the whole point why God gave us free will.

How do you know the child hasn’t made a free will choice to love God?

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[phil19034]

For example, in the story of David when his son was punished instead of David.
(You can argue that in turn that does still count as a punishment to David, but why not just punish him then and be direct ? Why punish his son who did nothing wrong ?)
This also goes for Pharaoh’s son and all the other Egyptian firstborns. I get that its supposed to be symbolism of what they did to them, but since when do you fight injustice with injustice ?
Why not kill Pharaoh instead ?
Just a question I was wondering about.
Thanks for the answers ahead of time

We were discussing this at Catholic Bible Study this past week. Our monsignor (who has a Ph.D. in theology) said that his theory is that the Jews got some of the details of the Old Testament wrong, and by the time it was written, was written wrong. Or details are exaggerated to make a point, which is often misunderstood if read on face value and without reading with the eyes of the Church.

In both of these stories, the point it is that sin brings bad things into world.

When people read these stories, they often think that God punishes us while on Earth. He doesn’t. However, God often brings good things out of bad things that happen.

Furthermore, in the case of Pharaoh, if you take the story as literal fact, then here is how to understand it. God was helping Moses to save the Jews. He gave Pharaoh multiple opportunities and warnings before taking the children. But Pharaoh didn’t listen. The children were not punished, as I believe they went directly to Heaven to be with God. If God would have killed Pharaoh, Pharaoh would not have had the opportunity to repent and change. (Note: I’m not claiming that he did repent and change, but it’s possible that he may have had a stirring of the heart after the death of his son, all the other children, and death of his army in the Red Sea.)

With our modern eyes, we view death as unjust, but that’s just because we have longer life spans now and the number of child deaths is far less that previously.

Keep in mind, that in the 1800s, it was not uncommon for parents to loose multiple children after birth. St. Therese, for example, had at least 3 older siblings die as infants/babies before she was born (two brothers and 1 sister)

Death is very natural and is a glorious event for a holy person, because it’s how they enter Heaven. Every single one of us are going to die. So it’s important for us to look at death through God’s eyes instead of though our eyes.

God Bless

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Suffer little children

I don’t see it say suffer anyway. Are you sure you are quoting correctly ?

How do you know the child hasn’t made a free will choice to love God?

Because you said yourself they are not at the age that they can reason.
Without reason you can’t make a sound decision.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I think that means that just like children who still havent learnt to look at themselves, that we shouhldn’t either. Or any other virtue that a child naturally has.
I don’t see how this has to do with being able to reason for a decision or not.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

That explains it quite well, thank you

I am just curious though, how do we know then which parts the Jews did get right ?
Isn’t this implying that everything in the bible is subject to mistake, therefore it raising another problem.

I do understand using hyperboles, which could be the text in this case. Just weird that the Jews used such a curious way of a hyperbole.

 

[phil19034]

That explains it quite well, thank you

I am just curious though, how do we know then which parts the Jews did get right ?
Isn’t this implying that everything in the bible is subject to mistake, therefore it raising another problem.

I do understand using hyperboles, which could be the text in this case. Just weird that the Jews used such a curious way of a hyperbole.

My priest basically said, think of it like this: “When it appears that Jesus is contracting Old Testament passages then the either the Jews got it wrong or people are totally missing the point of the Old Testament story.”

Furthermore, some parts of the Old Testament were meant for those times and do not apply today because Jesus is the definitive Revelation and the Divine Teacher.

NOTE: when he and I say “the Jews got it wrong” - that doesn’t mean that Scripture is wrong; it means that people interpreted it wrong or that it’s been translated wrong. Remember, the Scripture is free of error, but Bible Translations are not.

I pray this makes some sense.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Kinda does, I am still a bit confused on how we can know that it was translated correctly if some parts are wrong. I have also never heard this hypothesis from any other priest before (The Jews got some translations wrong seems kinda like cherry picking to me ) so I am a bit skeptical. But thanks on the help anyway.

For now I think I am just going to accept a mixture of hyperbole and the “death is not the end therefore its not bad” answer although both have its flaws.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Suffer little children

I don’t see it say suffer anyway. Are you sure you are quoting correctly ?

I’m pretty sure I did a cut an paste. Yep. But that is the KJV. Here it is in the NAB

Matthew 19:14 but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

How do you know the child hasn’t made a free will choice to love God?

Because you said yourself they are not at the age that they can reason.
Without reason you can’t make a sound decision.

They must have something. Otherwise, why does Jesus say to adults:

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whether it is the same type of mental ability or an ability of the heart, I don’t know.

Remember that Jesus also said:

John 20:29 [a]Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I think that means that just like children who still havent learnt to look at themselves, that we shouhldn’t either. Or any other virtue that a child naturally has.
I don’t see how this has to do with being able to reason for a decision or not.

[/QUOTE]
I didn’t say anything about being able to reason. There is a reason why it is said that faith and reason do not contradict. Faith is not the same as reason. In my opinion, it is superior. And I don’t know that it is simply another form of mental gymnastics. Since faith frequently goes against that which we, at first, think is right. For example, who would conclude that a man who was crucified actually won the day?

Only those who have faith in Christ.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

King James Version has had a lot of bad translations, and I don’t recommend using it to quote scripture, atleast not if you haven’t checked if its the similliar to the others.
No problems though.

I didn’t say anything about being able to reason. There is a reason why it is said that faith and reason do not contradict. Faith is not the same as reason. In my opinion, it is superior. And I don’t know that it is simply another form of mental gymnastics. Since faith frequently goes against that which we, at first, think is right. For example, who would conclude that a man who was crucified actually won the day?

Only those who have faith in Christ.

Yeah I am just not sure if children are able to have, if not reason, even faith at their lifetime, since faith and reason cooperate together. But I will live with the fact I cant get every question answered. Thanks for your response.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

This is such a construct.

While on the surface it sounds quite sound, if we dig past the façade we find that it is not better to die in sin than to die in a sinless state. We are not being robbed of a single thing if, as infants/kids we are placed on the express lane to Heaven.

It is the same reason why God is so Patient with sinners:

2 Peter 3:9 9The LORD is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The problem lies in our perspective.

Why do we seek fulfillment in unrighteousness?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Here’s the problem… do Faith and reason cooperate in a vacuum?:

36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: 37 Because no word shall be impossible with God.
41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord. (St. Luke 1)

Faith and reason cooperate with God. It is the Holy Spirit that allows Revelation to be assimilated through Faith and reason. There’s no limit to God’s Power; the Holy Spirit Searches man’s heart, mind, and soul (spirit). Our abilities are not hindered by an “age of reason” or a specific time period.

Created in the image and likeness of God, we are able to search God out even from our mother’s womb.

It is the devil’s construct that God is our foe; hence, we must exercise our freedom against His Will in order to be fully fulfilled. Yet, that’s the clear fallacy of sin–‘be all the you can be in spite of God.’

Maran atha!

Angel