Thanks, Daniel. Your (name removed by moderator)ut is very interesting but I still don’t understand why the Revelation of St. John had to originate with the Father and be given through Jesus to his angel who appeared to John. It’s similar to the Father creating everything through Jesus. What exactly does that mean. Acc. to JWs, which I do realize is not the church Jesus founded, the plan originated with the Father and Jesus(after being created by the Father) was the craftsman (the one authorized to create, so to speak). They claim God gave him the power to do this which seems absurd to me because all God has to do is speak a command and it is created! When speaking about the Objective genitive in Greek, would it be correct to assume that Jesus could have just as easily given the Revelation to the Father? If Subjective genitive, the rank issue still is confusing to me because why would the Revelation have to be given to Jesus if God (Jesus) knows everything??
Also regarding Wolfwredroses’ comment, I have never heard Phil2:6 stated that way-“who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God”–that seems to give the opposite meaning than the translation (in NAB &NWT too) which says–“Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped”. Thanks.
Oh, thats easy, God the Father put that in his power or authority, this is simply part of God the Father’s role. God the Son had the role of redemmer or giving himself in atonement for us, God the Spirit has the role of sanctifier of the saints. Basically, all three members of the godhead or trinity are equal in nature, but via volunteer type rank, each has different roles. God the Father did not become human to die on the cross for us, nor did the Holy Spirit, although all three would be represented in Jesus’ divine nature.
Acts 1
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Matthew 24:36
The Day and Hour Unknown ] "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Jehovah’s Witnesses confuse role or rank with nature. All three members of the Trinity are equal in nature, but there is a rank of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and Son.
The Biblical Basis of the
Doctrine of the Trinity:
An Outline Study
By Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
spotlightministries.org.uk/bowmanonthetrinity.htm
The President of the US, A General in the Army and a Private all have different ranks, but all three are still just human. If you followed JW logic in this situation, then one would be saying that both a General and Private are not human because they don’t have the same authority as the President of the US, who is Commander and Cheif of the Arm forces. Making such an argument is just plain silly.
Concerning Phil 2:6 JW’s quote from Jason BeDuhn who uses Liddell-Scott Greek Lexicon to say that this text could mean Jesus is trying to grasp or take something that he does not already possess or own ---- Liddell-Scott also says it could mean he is holding on to what he already has. Read the PDF at the thread below. BeDuhn is extermely bias and ignores Liddell-Scott Greek Lexicon on the phrase “being in the form of God” which can only have the meaning that Jesus is God or Jesus possesses divinity. If you look at the part the JW’s want to emphasize while ignoring the plain part of the text one can become confused and think they may be on to something. But, if you look at the full context of the text,
Philippians 2:5-11 (Contemporary English Version)
5and think the same way that Christ Jesus thought: 6 **Christ was truly God. **
But he did not try to remain equal with God the Father ].
Code:
7Instead he gave up everything and became a slave,
when he became
like one of us.
He obeyed God
and even died
on a cross.
the **highest place **
and honored his name
above all others.
Code:
10So at the name of Jesus
everyone will bow down,
those in heaven, on earth,
and under the earth.
of God the Father
everyone will openly agree,
“Jesus Christ is Lord!”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=251327
If you read Phil 2, in context the JW interpretation makes no sense at all. First, we have the phrase which says clearly that the Son of God was in the “form of God” or “is God”, then the text goes on to say he did not try to hold onto his place of authority in heaven, but BECAME a human to give himself in atonement in our place. Then God the Father exhalted the Son of God, Jesus back to his place of rank.
Now, lets look at the JW picture, ignore the fact that the Son of God has the “form of God”, claim that the Son tried to become God, but instead became human, made atonement and then God the Father made Jesus what? God? or equal with God the Father in nature?
Basically, in many of the works of God, each member has a role. Their role is related to rank, not nature. At creation, God the Father worked through God the Son, The Holy Spirit was present, he was the wind or spirit that hoovered over the waters.
JW’s confuse role or rank with nature. If they did this with the President of the US, a General and a Private, they would by their logic be claiming that the General and Private are NOT human.
If the Son of God tried to become God when was not, he would have disqualified himself from being the Lamb of God without spot or wrinkle. Trying to lift oneself up to godhood ( see Isaiah 14 this was Satan’s error ) is Sin.
Verse five sets the tone of the text, “have this mindset of humility in yourself, following the example of the Son of God”.
Exactly, how is trying to become a god equate to being “humble”?
