Why does "Latin Mass" seem like such a dirty word?

[FrmrTrad]

Missa latina vocabulum aggravans est ex mente rea sive ritus currens sive antiquus discutitur. Linguam Latinam abjicere factum nocivum fuit.

 

[Steve_Green]

seeker66, the tridentine latin mass, the old mass, not a mass in latin where the priest faces you is what I believe you are asking.

Good for You !!! Call your diocese office to see if there is one offered in the diocese. If not, see if there is a Pius X Society Church in your area. The Society offers the tridentine latin mass only, I should add that they are a group that is not formally recognized by Rome, don’t worry attending one woln’t make you a schismatic like some call them.

The Holy Father calls the Catholic laity to take concrete steps to heal the REAL schism in the Church. I am going to Sat.Nite Vespers at an Antiochene Orthodox Church. I love the Eastern Rites. The Orthodox and Eastern Catholics have kept their liturgical sanity despite some unneeded latinization of the Eastern Catholic Rites.

This is something you could do also if you do not have an Eastern Catholic Church in your area.

 

[otm]

Dr. Bombay:

Okay, that makes sense. However, it seems to me that if people were truly being kept from getting the full benefit of the Mass because it was not being said in their native language, the Holy Spirit would have lit a fire under somebody and rectified the situation. And that same Holy Spirit must have had a very good reason for guiding the Fathers of Vatican II to write that “The use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.” What could this mean?

And what about people who are unable to follow what’s going on at Mass regardless of the language, such as the mentally challenged, babies, brain damaged people, etc.? Do they receive less from the Mass than others because they can’t fully comprehend what’s being said?

Hmm, I was typing along and the gremlins got it all.

I wouldn’t say they receive less, I would say they participate less. What they receive is between them and God in his mercy and justice.

I am reminded of something from Revelations, chapter 3, I think, about the Lord spitting out the lukewarm. The vernacular may be a mixed blessing; to whom much is given, much is demanded… Having said that, I don’t think lukewarm participation is a result of the vernacular; I see it as a result of abysmal catechesis. But that is grist for another thread.

And as to the statement in the documents as to preserving Latin; the documents were hammered out over time and much negotiations; some wanted to go in this direction, some in that, some in none. Obviously, the rules have changed in ways that may or may not have been anticipated. But change they have, and under the final review of Rome, it might be added. Obviously, we debate the wisdom thereof.

Saying the Agnus Dei, and the Sanctus in Latin is hardly committing the Mass to Latin. Should it be made mandatory? Some would have everything after the “Pry, brethren”, aka the Suscipiat, in Latin… obviously, I wouldn’t.

And as to why it took the Holy Spirit so long; who says it took Him that long? Maybe it was only the poor clay vessels which did not respond to the fire… but I’ll ask when I get there…

 

[otm]

Steve Green:

seeker66, the tridentine latin mass, the old mass, not a mass in latin where the priest faces you is what I believe you are asking.

Good for You !!! Call your diocese office to see if there is one offered in the diocese. If not, see if there is a Pius X Society Church in your area. The Society offers the tridentine latin mass only, I should add that they are a group that is not formally recognized by Rome, don’t worry attending one woln’t make you a schismatic like some call them.

The Holy Father calls the Catholic laity to take concrete steps to heal the REAL schism in the Church. I am going to Sat.Nite Vespers at an Antiochene Orthodox Church. I love the Eastern Rites. The Orthodox and Eastern Catholics have kept their liturgical sanity despite some unneeded latinization of the Eastern Catholic Rites.

This is something you could do also if you do not have an Eastern Catholic Church in your area.

As the SSPX is in open schism with the Church, attendance at one of their Masses with full knowledge is serious sin. Obedience to the will of the Church is required of all; the liberals, the conservatives and those in the middle. Failure to intentionally follow the will of the Church, as expressed through the Pope by the formal excommunication, and directly though your bishop may not be a formal schizmatic act, but it is a grave matter and objectively a mortal sin.
further, it does not satisfy the legal and moral obligation to attend Mass. Neither does participation in an Orthodx liturgy.

 

[otm]

“I have to ask, are you talking about a TLM, a Latin NO or a Mass with Latin in it?”

Not one in particular. I’ve just never attended any kind of Latin Mass and wanted to know why it’s such a major undertaking to find one.

It was not distinguished in the original post; some of the comments have been about the Pauline rite Mass in Latin, some about the use of some Latin in the Pauline rite, and some about the TLM by indult.

 

[Catholic29]

Steve Green:

seeker66, the tridentine latin mass, the old mass, not a mass in latin where the priest faces you is what I believe you are asking.

Good for You !!! Call your diocese office to see if there is one offered in the diocese. If not, see if there is a Pius X Society Church in your area. The Society offers the tridentine latin mass only, I should add that they are a group that is not formally recognized by Rome, don’t worry attending one woln’t make you a schismatic like some call them.

John Paul II called them schismatic, but then again why worry?

Just keep in mind that attending their masses will NOT fulfill your sunday obligation in the eyes of the Church. And Fr. Vincent Serpa (CA apologist) expounds on this fact further here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=53644&highlight=SSPX

Rome’s official statement on the SSPX’s status in the Church (or lack there of): vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

See my post to Dr. Bombay. She didn’t have to teach me; the nuns did.

I guess I see the Mass as something more than just “keeping up”. I also have the advantage of knowing more Latin than the average person in the pew. And I prefer English.

Just because you or anyone prefers it, doesn’t mean that it should be denied to the rest of us… There is no reason why we can’t have an EWTN type Holy Mass in every parish. If we are offered a Modernist mass, why not the alternative.
The original poster is right. Finding Latin, even certain parts, entails a drive. That’s a shame.
When I said “keeping up” it was if we were to attend a purely Latin mass, now. We are not used to it. In a few weeks we would be up to speed.
Unlike the Polish were we would be lost.

 

[Steve_Green]

Strictly speaking going to the Orthodox Church does fullfill the Sunday obligation. However, I do not recommend it. I was just telling the poster of my little venture tonight to see Sat. Nite Orthos (Vespers) at a local Orthodox Church.
Catholics with the mindset of denying the validity of the NO who attend the Pius X are schismatic. I suggested to the poster to go to the Pius X to witness the TLM. You make such a suggestion grounds for excommunication for crying out loud. I don’t even attend their masses !!!

Anyway the society is in the terms and language of Rome is “an internal matter within the Roman Church”

No, I am not looking for another Pius X thread. I am just pointing out to the poster a chance to attend a TLM. And yes, I wish things would normalize between the society and Rome. It is about time. And I believe this pope can and will do it. The society does have to act more civil and respect the rites and validity of the NO along with the diverse eastern rites, in particular, of oriental churches.

 

[cainem]

perhaps the biggest problem for finding a latin mass is manpower, let’s face it the vocations are seriously undermanned, some places 1 priest between 2/3 parishes, perhaps they have other things to do like baptisms marriages funerals visiting the sick instead of holding a latin mass, but some people have to stop deluding themselves there is equal opportunity for liturgical abuse in both mass types, however i have still to find any evidence of abuses in any parish i visited(i used to be shop fitter travelling all over the country), mass said in english may crownings kneelers etc, and definetly no clowns apart from the odd person here or there who thinks it is now protestantized

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

otm:

Part of the reason that people react is not that they are progressives - or liberals - they are simply Catholics who rejoice at being able to hear and understand, and therefore follow along with the priest as he says Mass. Some of them have had the opportunity to attend a Mass said in Spanish or Vietnamese, and feel that those experiences are fairly close to what their experience would be if the Mass were in Latin; that is, they would either simply have the Mass “happen” while they were present, with much less participation ir offering the prayers, or the experience of trying to do two things at once - listten to a language they did not understand, by and large, while they read the prayers in English.

The only people who would call this set of Catholics liberal are those who consider anyone to the left of them a liberal; and that is an abuse of the term.

That’s an excellent point. Many of those who are quick to apply the “liberal”, “progressive” or “modernist” labels don’t seem to have a clue what they really mean. Misapplication is all too common…

 

[brotherhrolf]

otm:

I have taken Latin in both high scholl and college, as well as Homeric and a bit of koinae Greek in high school. I have sung, as part of a large choir while in college, on a record of Gregorian Chant in Latin. I have a couple of records of Gregorian chant and at least one CD in Latin. and, contrary to some of whom I call purists, I think that English can be sung in Gregorian chant form; I have done it in the Liturgy of the Hours.

Indeed English can be sung in Gregorian chant form. We use the settings in the 1942 Episcopalian hymnal in my cathedral choir. I have to say that singing the Golden Sequence in English is not the same as singing the Lauda Sion. And I don’t have a problem with the Mass in English. My problem is that without exposing the congregation to Latin, the younger generations grow up with no knowledge of the one-time universality of Latin in the church. My parish uses the old chant settings in Greek and Latin for the Kyrie, Sanctus, Great Amen and Agnus Dei during Lent. My kids got at least that much exposure but what about those kids in all the other parishes who have never heard Latin?

 

[pnewton]

otm:

The Church has almost in all circumstances been slow to move and slow to change. Why did it take so long? In part, just because of that; in part, because at other times, there were other more critical issues to deal with, because there were many who simply didn’t question the statu quo, and I suppose if I really studied the issue for a while, I could come up with other reason

It seems that while the Church is slow to change, She seems to changing faster the last century than in the past. I do not find this at all disturbing. The world is not the same as it was. While truth remains constant, the speed of communication has increased exponentially. Therefore the Church is more capable of keeping disciplinary matters current and applicable to the times.

Case in point. Imagine this thread if we had to wait a week or two between each post to know what the next person would post. It would be stagnate and confusing. As it is, we can follow the thoughts of each other in a much more efficient manner.

If the future continues toward faster communication and information, I think you will see a church even more quick in responding to a changing world.

 

[Affirmed]

Just a note- I think that those who say that they became “lukewarm Catholics” or stopped attending Mass after the NO was put into place are copping out big time. You don’t abandon your Catholic responsibilities just because you don’t agree with Rome’s desicions on how the liturgy should be celebrated.

 

[netmilsmom]

Affirmed:

Just a note- I think that those who say that they became “lukewarm Catholics” or stopped attending Mass after the NO was put into place are copping out big time. You don’t abandon your Catholic responsibilities just because you don’t agree with Rome’s desicions on how the liturgy should be celebrated.

I am required as a Catholic to attend mass every Sunday, Holy Day, receive Holy Eucharist once a year and go to confession once a year.
When I was a lukewarm Catholic, that’s all I did. Walking into the “Happy Mass” was a struggle to maintain my focus on the Lord.

Now since I’m in a Deep Catholic parish, I attend almost daily. I get there early for the Rosary and stay for the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

There is a difference between meeting Catholic responsibilities and adoring the thought of being there!

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I am required as a Catholic to attend mass every Sunday, Holy Day, receive Holy Eucharist once a year and go to confession once a year.
When I was a lukewarm Catholic, that’s all I did. Walking into the “Happy Mass” was a struggle to maintain my focus on the Lord.

Now since I’m in a Deep Catholic parish, I attend almost daily. I get there early for the Rosary and stay for the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

There is a difference between meeting Catholic responsibilities and adoring the thought of being there!

What the heck is that? Some new Protestant sect?

 

[netmilsmom]

Pariah Pirana:

What the heck is that? Some new Protestant sect?

Oh no!
I got slammed on so many boards for calling my parish conservative or orthodox that one of our parishioners came up with “Deep Catholic”.
It’s an EWTN Holy Mass. Latin, Greek, Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, the whole ball of wax. Six of them on Sundays, at least two each weekday. Four priests, eight seminarians (looking at another two next year) and 200 boys and men serving the Altar. Confessions and Rosary before each Holy Mass. Corpus Christi with all four Priests, May Crowning…life don’t get much better than this.
Anyway, the Deep Catholic label came up at a meeting where we were discussing boards such as this. Someone came up with the phrase to mean that true, historical Catholic teachings are upheld in our parish and run “deep” in the parishioners.
I’m not trying to offend, just catagorize.

 

[SnorterLuster]

Affirmed:

Just a note- I think that those who say that they became “lukewarm Catholics” or stopped attending Mass after the NO was put into place are copping out big time. You don’t abandon your Catholic responsibilities just because you don’t agree with Rome’s desicions on how the liturgy should be celebrated.

I disagree. I quit going to church for years for just that reason. I got tired of the priest giving general absolution before mass so everyone could go to communion. I was outraged to see the hosts put in a straw basket and consecrated. I didn’t understand and still don’t understand why we need emergency ministers to “hand out” the Eucharist when father was able to handle the crowds before the N.O. For a while I was able to go to mass at a Carmelite monastary, but they eventurally became almost strictly Spanish speaking.

Maybe it is an excuse, but I was leaving my parish mass angry and upset at what I was seeing. I may not be able to quote chapter and verse from the GIRM, but I can tell when something is just not right. It got to the point that I just hated to go to mass to see the latest, greatest innovation that the liturgy committee came up with. I found out early that if you complained that something was wrong, father would refer you to the committee and the committee would tell me to get with the times. The (name removed by moderator)ut from conservatives was neither wanted or appreciated. The church has entered a new era that has no need or want for old fashion liturgy or dogma. Get with it or get out. I got out.

 

[netmilsmom]

SnorterLuster:

The (name removed by moderator)ut from conservatives was neither wanted or appreciated. The church has entered a new era that has no need or want for old fashion liturgy or dogma. Get with it or get out. I got out.

I got the same in my old parish.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Has anyone every studied the effect of “the change” on those of us who were teenagers just after VII? No, for a long time I did not forget my responsibilities nor would my parents let me forget those responsibilites. I got real tired, just like netmil(name removed by moderator), of the Happy mass with the strummin’ and a swayin’ and the “Sons of God” and “They’ll Know We are Christians” songs (not hymns). It really pained me not to go to Mass but I could not find a Mass where there was not the strummin’ and a swayin’; where the priest was not running up and down the aisles during the Kiss of Peace; and where there wasn’t anything even remotely resembling the reverence I experienced just two years before. I mean come on folks! Before my (then) parish built our oh-so-current church in the round, we had Latin Mass in a) a public gymnasium and b) in the hall of a country club. It was always reverent despite the settings. Bam, comes 1967 and we are on the cutting edge of liturgical reform. We were one of the first parishes in our archdiocese to be built after V II with all the reforms. It wasn’t the architecture, it was the sad fact that the Mass went from being solemn and reverent to the kind of happy-slappy “hail fellow well met” type of “exuberance” that overwhelming characterized the post V II liturgies.

I can’t believe I’m the only person who was a teenager during the years of “the change” that feels this way.

 

[SnorterLuster]

brotherhrolf:

I can’t believe I’m the only person who was a teenager during the years of “the change” that feels this way.

You’re not the only teen that felt that way. I posted this in another thread:

*I was just a teenager through Vatican II. I graduated from highschool in 1965. I attended Catholic grade school through the 8th grade and public high school. My recollections then will be those of a young person without much insight into what the powers that be were up to.

As far as I knew, the changes were crammed down the throats of the laity and local priests. Our bishop at the time was very liberal in a very conservative diocese. Among my immediate and extended family (irish Catholic) few liked the changes or saw any good reason to make any changes. The liturgy, of course, is what all Catholics have in common and we could see our unity dying on the altar of relevance. Of course some people in the parish welcomed the changes. They had been agitating for years to “involve” the laity.

Thinking back, it seemed that the parish broke into probably four factions.

The first faction welcomed the changes and expected more changes. This was the group that just knew the church was going to modernize and birth control would be legalized. Eventually, when they didn’t get everything they wanted, some stayed in the church fighting a guerilla war. Some left to find a different church that would accomodate their beliefs.

Another group, consisting mainly of the very orthodox, did accept the changes with a minimum of griping. The older people, like my grandparents, fit into this group. They could not imagine themselves being disobedient. This was a group that looked upon the priesthood as being practically infallible. They took the changes in their stride.

A third faction, consisting mainly of people in my parents age group, veterans of WWII, marched along with the changes like good soldiers should. They adopted a wait and see attitude. Most went along with the changes until the abuses of the liturgy started happening. Things that had been mortal sins now became the norm. The priests were saying one thing from the pulpit and something quite different in the confessional. The church no longer seemed to be a rock, but rather a rock concert. Most went through the motions of being Catholic, but a large number just dropped out. Many, like my mother, have stayed dropped out.

The fourth grouping were the young people like me. Vatican II was supposed to modernize the church and make it relevant to the young, but most, if not all, of my friends found it fake. The liturgy became something that was like one of those beach movies from Hollywood. The mass was what a bunch of old bishops and cardinals thought the young would want, but we found it as out of touch as Annette at the beach. Good to look at, but not real. As you probably know, the 60s was a time of great upheavel. Most of us were worried about the draft, or how to pay for college. The world was changing and all we wanted was a sanctuary of sanity, like the Church. Instead the Church joined the insane changes of the regular world. I would guess that out of my 8th grade class of 40+ students, fewer than ten remained in the Church. Many, like myself, have come back to the church in recent years, but way too many young people started view the church as just a human institution, not a Godly institution.

For those who have been away for awhile, things got worse rather than better. Luckily, I found a TLM indult chapel that fits me to a “T”.*