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sugarontharim
Guest
I feel that to go to hell is to be rejected by God and I cannot understand why a loving Father would do such a thing. Wouldn’t unconditional love presume that we are accepted totally, sin and all?
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Nickkname
Guest
God dose not separate Himself from us, we separate ourselves from Him. To break it down easily:I feel that to go to hell is to be rejected by God and I cannot understand why a loving Father would do such a thing. Wouldn’t unconditional love presume that we are accepted totally, sin and all?
- God is love
- Love is the means of salvation
- Sin (mortal and venial) is an offense against love
- Mortal sin chokes love out of man’s heart
- Hence mortal sin separates man from God (that is, by committing mortal sin man chooses to separate himself from God)
- Hell is the state of eternal separation from God
- If man persists in his sin, he will go to hell (that is, he will choose hell over salvation)
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LilyM
Guest
Even the most unconditionally loving person simply cannot live with someone who rejects them and flouts their wishes and (in the case of God or a parent) their authority.
Most loved ones of people who are addicted to drugs or alchol, or are of uncontrollable temper, or even those who are difficult to live with because of severe mental illness, for example, reach a point where, while their love for the sufferer is totally undiminished, they simply cannot live with that person any more.
So no, unconditional love does not mean acceptance of intolerable behaviours. In fact true love does the opposite of accepting such behaviours, since true love is that which wants the highest good for the loved one.
In the case of an out-of-control addict or ill person the highest good is in fact getting the addiction or illness properly treated, rather than simply brushing it under the carpet or ignoring it (which is simply enabling, and ultimately no good for any party).
Proper treatment, and thus the person’s ultimate good and the most loving course of action, may require the sufferer being denied the presence of the loved one while they refuse to get the help they need.
Most loved ones of people who are addicted to drugs or alchol, or are of uncontrollable temper, or even those who are difficult to live with because of severe mental illness, for example, reach a point where, while their love for the sufferer is totally undiminished, they simply cannot live with that person any more.
So no, unconditional love does not mean acceptance of intolerable behaviours. In fact true love does the opposite of accepting such behaviours, since true love is that which wants the highest good for the loved one.
In the case of an out-of-control addict or ill person the highest good is in fact getting the addiction or illness properly treated, rather than simply brushing it under the carpet or ignoring it (which is simply enabling, and ultimately no good for any party).
Proper treatment, and thus the person’s ultimate good and the most loving course of action, may require the sufferer being denied the presence of the loved one while they refuse to get the help they need.
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puzzleannie
Guest
turn it around. in mortal sin we have rejected God, not the other way around. In choosing hell, with the full knowledge we will be granted at the moment of death and judgement, we reject God for all eternity in the full, conscious act of the will. Unconditional love indeed God has and extends his full mercy and forgiveness at that moment to all, but only those who accept it can attain it. Nothing unclean can enter heaven, so we must give him permission to purify us. No one can be forced into heaven, either.I feel that to go to hell is to be rejected by God and I cannot understand why a loving Father would do such a thing. Wouldn’t unconditional love presume that we are accepted totally, sin and all?
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sugarontharim
Guest
So the highest good for a sinner is hell?So no, unconditional love does not mean acceptance of intolerable behaviours. In fact true love does the opposite of accepting such behaviours, since true love is that which wants the highest good for the loved one.
Also, it seems that we can only receive Gods love eternally on the condition that we do not die in mortal sin, yet unconditional love is defined as “affection with no limits or conditions; complete love”.
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Le_Chiot_Noir
Guest
The highest good for an unrepentant sinner is Hell. I like how I saw this expressed somewhere in this forum: Hell is simply God giving the sinner exactly what he wants. A mortal sin, by definition, concerns a grave matter, is performed with full consent, and full knowledge.So the highest good for a sinner is hell?
Also, it seems that we can only receive Gods love eternally on the condition that we do not die in mortal sin, yet unconditional love is defined as “affection with no limits or conditions; complete love”.
Meaning that the sinner knows that God is the ultimate good, but wants something else anyway. When God gives him exactly what he wants for all eternity, God also reveals some part of what the sinner gave up however, and even this tiniest glimpse of God’s goodness is so infinitely good compared to whatever the sinner chose that the result is… Hell.
God’s love is unconditional, but we are conditional. How can anyone receive love that does not want it?
You cannot put bread in a close fist.
M
Muzhik
Guest
The question is: is the mortal sin a “one-off” or “occasional” sin, from which you repented or are repenting; or is it a pattern of behavior where you simply don’t care about the sin or the consequenses of that sin, on G_D, yourself, and others? If it’s a pattern of rejecting G_D and His love in this life, then He will permit that rejection to continue in the eternal life to come.So the highest good for a sinner is hell?
Also, it seems that we can only receive Gods love eternally on the condition that we do not die in mortal sin, yet unconditional love is defined as “affection with no limits or conditions; complete love”.
You should read this blog entry by Mark Mallett, Why Faith? It covers your question in trying to explain why we are saved through faith.
<><
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quasimodo
Guest
Try this thought exercise to understand. The theology is weak but it might give a feel for our rejection of God:
God is all in all. All things exist and have their being in God. All things, without exception. God is existence itself. (Rom 11:36, 1Cor 8:6)
God is love. (I John 4:8)
More than that, God is a fiery furnace of supernatural love. (Hebrews 12:29)
In order to live on that supernatural level with God, we need to be on fire with that same supernatural love that God is - we call God’s supernatural life & love “grace.”
When we sin (mortal sin) we reject our link with God, we reject God and His will for us. We reject the source of that fire of supernatural love - we cannot maintain it on our own. The supernatural love in our souls is extinguished and we become cold - estranged from God.
Hell is the fact that we are not on fire with God’s supernatural Life &love (grace) and yet all things exist and have their being in God.
But God is love and He loves all things - yet we shrink from that love and run from it because our hearts are cold and icy. But there is no place to go because there is only God who can only love us because He is love.
Helll is the exact opposite of being rejected by God.
God is all in all. All things exist and have their being in God. All things, without exception. God is existence itself. (Rom 11:36, 1Cor 8:6)
God is love. (I John 4:8)
More than that, God is a fiery furnace of supernatural love. (Hebrews 12:29)
In order to live on that supernatural level with God, we need to be on fire with that same supernatural love that God is - we call God’s supernatural life & love “grace.”
When we sin (mortal sin) we reject our link with God, we reject God and His will for us. We reject the source of that fire of supernatural love - we cannot maintain it on our own. The supernatural love in our souls is extinguished and we become cold - estranged from God.
Hell is the fact that we are not on fire with God’s supernatural Life &love (grace) and yet all things exist and have their being in God.
But God is love and He loves all things - yet we shrink from that love and run from it because our hearts are cold and icy. But there is no place to go because there is only God who can only love us because He is love.
Helll is the exact opposite of being rejected by God.
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Genesis12345
Guest
Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason entails both God’s forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church. God is not sending you to “Hell”, you are. You know the way to be forgive of any sin is to use the Sacramen of Reconciliation. God is a Merciful God and if you are truly sorry for your sins, he will forgive you. The words to Simon Peter: " I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shalll be loosed in heaven." Meaning the priest has the power to forgive or not to forgive your sins, but in the first place, if you go to confession it is a sign that you are sorry. Reconcilation with the Church is inseparable from reconcilation with God.
Yes, God loves us unconditionally, but all mortal sinis which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they have been committed against the two precepts of the Decaogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more greciously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly. Any one who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences a deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution… Taken from The Catechism, pp 364-366.
As I said previously, God does not send anyone to Hell, it is the person himself that does knowing that he is in mortal sin.
Yes, God loves us unconditionally, but all mortal sinis which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they have been committed against the two precepts of the Decaogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more greciously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly. Any one who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences a deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution… Taken from The Catechism, pp 364-366.
As I said previously, God does not send anyone to Hell, it is the person himself that does knowing that he is in mortal sin.
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Joejohn39
Guest
I struggle with this as well. I have figured that God, through predestination, can perceive whether or not a person will choose hell in the end. Why would He allow a person He knew was destined for hell to come into existence. My belief is that we should try to not be overly concerned about this over loving God and doing His will. We should avoid sin because it is sin, not because we fear hell.I feel that to go to hell is to be rejected by God and I cannot understand why a loving Father would do such a thing. Wouldn’t unconditional love presume that we are accepted totally, sin and all?
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Genesis12345
Guest
I struggle with this as well. I have figured that God, through predestination, can perceive whether or not a person will choose hell in the end. Why would He allow a person He knew was destined for hell to come into existence. My belief is that we should try to not be overly concerned about this over loving God and doing His will. We should avoid sin because it is sin, not because we fear hell.
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Genesis12345
Guest
You say, “Why would God allow a person He knew was destined for hell,” "My belief is that we should not be overly concerned about this ever loving God and doing His will."
God does not allow a person destined for hell. You make that your own choice. He has given you a free will and however you use it is up to you. God does not send anyone to hell, it is the person himself that makes the decision.
Your statement about not being concerned about this ever loving God and doing His will concerns me. We are all to do God’s will. If you do not know what GOd’s will is for you, than, ask Him. You chould be concerne about GOd’s unconditional love for you.
You know the Commandments (or should) and there are plenty of examination of consciences to use for what is considered a sin. Follow an examination of conscience and it will guide you through what are sins.
Mortal sin is a grave sin and it deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."
All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious (aware of it) must be recounted by them in Confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue, for these sins sometimes wound the soul more greviously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly.
Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive communion, even if he experiences dep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution.
Mortal sin damages or even breaks fraternal communion. The sacrament of confession restores it.
Mortaal sin separates you from God because you have broken His commandments. As I said earlier, if you are in a state of mortal sin, you cannot go to confession because you would be committing a sacreligious communion–it would be like you were not receiving Christ.
Mortal sin deprives y ou of communion nwith God and therfore makes you incapable of eternal life.
Who ever eats my body and drinks my blood will have ever lasting life.
If you thik you are in mortal sin, please go to confession and the priest will help you. You must r emember, when you die and if you are in the state of mortal sin, this is eternal and this is why you should be using this sacrament now, because once you are dead, how can your sins be forgiven.
May the Holy Spirit guide you when you go to confession.
God does not allow a person destined for hell. You make that your own choice. He has given you a free will and however you use it is up to you. God does not send anyone to hell, it is the person himself that makes the decision.
Your statement about not being concerned about this ever loving God and doing His will concerns me. We are all to do God’s will. If you do not know what GOd’s will is for you, than, ask Him. You chould be concerne about GOd’s unconditional love for you.
You know the Commandments (or should) and there are plenty of examination of consciences to use for what is considered a sin. Follow an examination of conscience and it will guide you through what are sins.
Mortal sin is a grave sin and it deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."
All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious (aware of it) must be recounted by them in Confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue, for these sins sometimes wound the soul more greviously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly.
Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive communion, even if he experiences dep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution.
Mortal sin damages or even breaks fraternal communion. The sacrament of confession restores it.
Mortaal sin separates you from God because you have broken His commandments. As I said earlier, if you are in a state of mortal sin, you cannot go to confession because you would be committing a sacreligious communion–it would be like you were not receiving Christ.
Mortal sin deprives y ou of communion nwith God and therfore makes you incapable of eternal life.
Who ever eats my body and drinks my blood will have ever lasting life.
If you thik you are in mortal sin, please go to confession and the priest will help you. You must r emember, when you die and if you are in the state of mortal sin, this is eternal and this is why you should be using this sacrament now, because once you are dead, how can your sins be forgiven.
May the Holy Spirit guide you when you go to confession.
K
kage_ar
Guest
Because to commit mortal sin is to fully, knowingly reject God. One does not commit mortal sin “accidently”.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Because God is just as well as merciful.
Also, it seems the OP has a false premise. If heaven were the ‘summit’ of love, and ‘to be in heaven’ was the ultimate goal, and if ‘unconditional love’ meant forcing a person against his or her will into the ‘summit of love’. . .then one might argue that a person’s not going to heaven was being ‘deprived of love’.
But that isn’t the case. The ultimate ‘goal’ of life is not a place, but a person. . .God. Heaven is where God is. . .but God does not ‘equal’ Heaven. He is more than that.
Further, perfect love may be unconditional (as God’s is) in accepting us imperfect humans even though there is no possible way that we even come close to the kind of love God gives US when we try to love Him. . .even somebody like Mother Teresa is not ‘worthy’ per se of God’s love. God’s love is unconditional in that where we try to love, even though the love is so pitifully inadequate just as we are pitifully inadequate compared to God, He will ‘accept’ that stingy, pitiful love and incorporate it into His perfect, all encompassing, all merciful love.
But where we refuse to love, and we give hate instead. . .He still surrounds it with His perfect love and He gives mercy even though it does not seem that way to us (remember, we are pitiful and imperfect and what WE might think is just and fair may not be. How many eons did people think it perfectly just and fair to have slaves, for example? Just because we are so ‘enlightened’ that we recognize chattel slavery as evil in 2008 doesn’t mean that there aren’t as many equally evil things (let’s think of abortion right off the start) that we supposedly incredibly just and fair persons think are just peachy keen.)
Not to be snarky (I hope) but every time I read one of these threads that asks, in tones of bemused ‘wonder’, how God can ‘ask’ something so ‘unfair’ to the perfectly enlightened, just and fair modern person. . .all I can think is that these are the same people who insist that they cannot inflict ‘their’ morality onto a woman and interfere with her ‘choice’ to abort a child. . .and how this has gone on for decades such that people now actually think it is only FAIR to allow it, and unfair to speak against it!
If we can be that hideously wrong in our ‘enlightened’ times, what makes us so unsufferably and smugly sure we are ‘right’ about whatever ‘unfairness’ we claim God is inflicting on his ‘poor people?’
Also, it seems the OP has a false premise. If heaven were the ‘summit’ of love, and ‘to be in heaven’ was the ultimate goal, and if ‘unconditional love’ meant forcing a person against his or her will into the ‘summit of love’. . .then one might argue that a person’s not going to heaven was being ‘deprived of love’.
But that isn’t the case. The ultimate ‘goal’ of life is not a place, but a person. . .God. Heaven is where God is. . .but God does not ‘equal’ Heaven. He is more than that.
Further, perfect love may be unconditional (as God’s is) in accepting us imperfect humans even though there is no possible way that we even come close to the kind of love God gives US when we try to love Him. . .even somebody like Mother Teresa is not ‘worthy’ per se of God’s love. God’s love is unconditional in that where we try to love, even though the love is so pitifully inadequate just as we are pitifully inadequate compared to God, He will ‘accept’ that stingy, pitiful love and incorporate it into His perfect, all encompassing, all merciful love.
But where we refuse to love, and we give hate instead. . .He still surrounds it with His perfect love and He gives mercy even though it does not seem that way to us (remember, we are pitiful and imperfect and what WE might think is just and fair may not be. How many eons did people think it perfectly just and fair to have slaves, for example? Just because we are so ‘enlightened’ that we recognize chattel slavery as evil in 2008 doesn’t mean that there aren’t as many equally evil things (let’s think of abortion right off the start) that we supposedly incredibly just and fair persons think are just peachy keen.)
Not to be snarky (I hope) but every time I read one of these threads that asks, in tones of bemused ‘wonder’, how God can ‘ask’ something so ‘unfair’ to the perfectly enlightened, just and fair modern person. . .all I can think is that these are the same people who insist that they cannot inflict ‘their’ morality onto a woman and interfere with her ‘choice’ to abort a child. . .and how this has gone on for decades such that people now actually think it is only FAIR to allow it, and unfair to speak against it!
If we can be that hideously wrong in our ‘enlightened’ times, what makes us so unsufferably and smugly sure we are ‘right’ about whatever ‘unfairness’ we claim God is inflicting on his ‘poor people?’
R
rosarygirl7
Guest
Mortal sin is a cold refusal of God. This is kind of a silly comparison, but the best one I can think of at the moment. Let’s say there are two people going to be married- and only one loves the other one. Then could they be married, even if one loves the other really perfectly? They couldn’t. It has been explained already, I am sure, but maybe I helped a little bit!
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sugarontharim
Guest
So what you’re saying is that hell is not necessarily punishment, and that the suffering in Hell comes from the knowledge of what they are missing, and also from regret?God also reveals some part of what the sinner gave up however, and even this tiniest glimpse of God’s goodness is so infinitely good compared to whatever the sinner chose that the result is… Hell.
S
sugarontharim
Guest
When someone sins it is not necessarily because they want evil. It is more that they wish to satisfy their impure desires. If God is giving them ‘exactly’ what they want, would that not mean that these impure desires would be quenched for all of eternity?Meaning that the sinner knows that God is the ultimate good, but wants something else anyway. When God gives him exactly what he wants for all eternity,
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sugarontharim
Guest
Would he not than allow the satisfaction of those impure desires that came along with the sins to last for eternity?The question is: is the mortal sin a “one-off” or “occasional” sin, from which you repented or are repenting; or is it a pattern of behavior where you simply don’t care about the sin or the consequenses of that sin, on G_D, yourself, and others? If it’s a pattern of rejecting G_D and His love in this life, then He will permit that rejection to continue in the eternal life to come.
You should read this blog entry by Mark Mallett, Why Faith? It covers your question in trying to explain why we are saved through faith.
<><
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Genesis12345
Guest
God does not send us to hell, you do. Yes, he loves unconditionally,but if you break one of his commandments, when you die, He is going to be your Judge.
Yes, God is Merciful, but when it comes to death, He will be a Merciful Judge. He will judge you for what you did here on earth–you will either asked to come and sit at His right side or if you have sinned and not repented, he will send you to hell ( I do not believe that Limbo exists.)*
*I am giving you an example. I cannot tell you what God’s mine is and how He will judge you, but you will be judged and mortal sin does exist and you should know if you are at the age of reason, what is right and what is wrong. Once you commit a mortal sin, you are completely cut off from God and your mortal sins affects the rest of us who are Catholic because we all belong to the Mystical Body of Christ
You have to remember, He does love us all even if we sin, but when we die, He will be our Judge and He will know what you have done in offending Him.
This is why we have Confession. Once you die, your sins cannot be forgiven, so if you are in the state of mortal sin, I would advise you to go to Confession now.
Assuming that you are Catholic, you should have leaned this in your CCD classes, if you attended them.
There are so many people living in mortal sin not to bring up the subject again, by having premarital sex] and this cuts off their relationship with God and if they continue going to communion, they are committing what is called a “sacreligious” communiion which means that the Body and Blood of Christ for someone in mortal sin means nothing to them. You should NEVER go to communion if you are aware of the fact that you are in mortal sin because you will not receive the graces of this powerful Sacrament because your relationshiop is “cut” off from God until you repent again.
Yes, God is Merciful, but when it comes to death, He will be a Merciful Judge. He will judge you for what you did here on earth–you will either asked to come and sit at His right side or if you have sinned and not repented, he will send you to hell ( I do not believe that Limbo exists.)*
*I am giving you an example. I cannot tell you what God’s mine is and how He will judge you, but you will be judged and mortal sin does exist and you should know if you are at the age of reason, what is right and what is wrong. Once you commit a mortal sin, you are completely cut off from God and your mortal sins affects the rest of us who are Catholic because we all belong to the Mystical Body of Christ
You have to remember, He does love us all even if we sin, but when we die, He will be our Judge and He will know what you have done in offending Him.
This is why we have Confession. Once you die, your sins cannot be forgiven, so if you are in the state of mortal sin, I would advise you to go to Confession now.
Assuming that you are Catholic, you should have leaned this in your CCD classes, if you attended them.
There are so many people living in mortal sin not to bring up the subject again, by having premarital sex] and this cuts off their relationship with God and if they continue going to communion, they are committing what is called a “sacreligious” communiion which means that the Body and Blood of Christ for someone in mortal sin means nothing to them. You should NEVER go to communion if you are aware of the fact that you are in mortal sin because you will not receive the graces of this powerful Sacrament because your relationshiop is “cut” off from God until you repent again.
R
RosaryFan
Guest
Sin and evil are not allowed in Heaven. This is why satan and his followers are banished. If one chooses in his/her lifetime to follow satan rather than God, then they are, in effect, choosing hell over Heaven. God is not sending them to hell. They have chosen it by their practices in life.
It may not feel like we are actually choosing to follow satan, but when you choose to NOT follow God, you are by default choosing to follow the devil. There are no in-betweens. Your actions are either for or against God. The choice is all ours (free will). We just need to be aware of the consequences of our choices.
You touch a flame, you burn your finger. You can’t get mad at God for allowing you finger to burn when you knew ahead of time that fire burns flesh. Consequences of our actions - plain and simple.
It may not feel like we are actually choosing to follow satan, but when you choose to NOT follow God, you are by default choosing to follow the devil. There are no in-betweens. Your actions are either for or against God. The choice is all ours (free will). We just need to be aware of the consequences of our choices.
You touch a flame, you burn your finger. You can’t get mad at God for allowing you finger to burn when you knew ahead of time that fire burns flesh. Consequences of our actions - plain and simple.
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