Why does NFP require a 'reason'?

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Glennford said:
Well, having a pleasure boat is quality family recreation time, and quality recreation can help a family to develop strong relationship bonds. These bonds can help a family together in times of crisis and to have the close and comfortable relationships necessary for family members to trust one another and be honest with one another.

Ergo, a boat can be serious and important family project worth sacrificing for.
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I’m pretty sure JPII countered such thinking by saying that a sibling is a greater gift to a child than any material thing (or somehting to that effect).

But if the family has a number of children already, feels that another would be a psychological burden to them (eg they’re flat out looking after 4 already), and can afford a boat, then it’s a bit different. It’s different in that there are other reasons for avoiding another child (psychological), not simply for having a boat.

Anyway, if you think the above description shows “serious reasons”, I’ve really lost track of what you’re arguing. You seemed earlier to want a narrow view of “serious reasons” to be imposed, and now you want to allow for recreational boats. 🤷
 
Glennford said:
Called sarcasm. I know, it’s a difficult concept.
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I know sarcasm quite well. (BTW I can also spot condescension, thanks…and note the sarcasm when I say “thanks” 😉 )

But you provided a reasonably good explanation of why saving for a recreational boat may provide a serious reason for using NFP. I don’t think it quite cuts the mustard, but it does show that defining what is a serious reason and what is not is a difficult task.
 
but it does show that defining what is a serious reason and what is not is a difficult task.
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It shows that defining in the absence of guidelines is foolishness.
 
Glennford said:
It shows that defining in the absence of guidelines is foolishness.
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This is ridiculous. You seem to claim that it is impossible, or at least near impossible, for a couple to understand the Church’s teachings on sexuality well enough to figure out when they are being selfish and when they aren’t.

Part of the reason there aren’t guidelines is precisely because of the fact that psychological reasons can be legitimate. What might cause great psychological stress on one couple another would take in their stride. You can’t just lay out a set of rules of what is and is not ok because this is one area where the very circumstances which make something moral or not are extremely personal and individualistic. This just simply is not the kind of thing you can lay out set rules for. Because of this it is ultimately up to each couple to determine what is and is not selfish with respect to this. Much like it is up to each person to decide what kind of charitable givings they ought to give. There is a certain point where it becomes selfish not to give charitably (whether in time or money) and it is possible to give in a way that is more than generous. But noone can set out strict rules for what amount of charitable giving we are morally obliged to give, there are too many variables. ultimately it is up to the couple to determine this because they are the only ones who actually know the full set of circumstances.
 
I am not sure but I suspect that possibly the reason why you must have a grave or serious reason to use Natural Family Planning to prevent a pregnancy is because it would be selfish to prevent a pregnancy for a non-serious reason. Again, I may very well be wrong but that is what I think. If I am wrong, I would appreciate being corrected by anyone.
 
Holly3278 said:
I am not sure but I suspect that possibly the reason why you must have a grave or serious reason to use Natural Family Planning to prevent a pregnancy is because it would be selfish to prevent a pregnancy for a non-serious reason. Again, I may very well be wrong but that is what I think. If I am wrong, I would appreciate being corrected by anyone.
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👍
That is my understanding as well. Thanks for getting us back on track. 🙂
 
you must have a grave or serious reason to use Natural Family Planning to prevent a pregnancy is because it would be selfish
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And, since we’e talking about a grave matter, here selfish=gravely sinful.

So, that would be something to work really hard to avoid.
 
Glennford said:
It shows that defining in the absence of guidelines is foolishness.
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Not really…and I’m afraid that if you were aiming for a reductio ad absurdum argument it wasn’t very clear.

The Church can’t address every reason for using or not using NFP (such as boats). There are guidelines. They are vague, yes. That’s because each couple has unique considerations and more exact guidelines would be innappropriate. What exactly is it that you want?
 
They are vague, yes.
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Just for the sake of my curiosity, what other matters of grave sin can you think of that have such vague guidelines?
 
Glennford said:
Just for the sake of my curiosity, what other matters of grave sin can you think of that have such vague guidelines?
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Well, as long as it’s just to satisfy your curisoity and not launch into another tanget to this thread…

There are grey areas in many moral matters, and any time spent look at answers to questions on this forum will show that:

Lust - what exactly is “inordinate” desire vs mere physical attraction?

Near occasions of sin - proximate, remote, necessary, etc…

Lying - vs withholding truth from those not entitled to it?

Civil duties - when are laws just or unjust?

Obeying parents - similar issues to civil duties; when can one rightly disobey their parents?

Reasons for missing mass – a priest can dispense one, but what reasons may a given priest think are appropriate? (actually, this one may be pretty close to the current debate, in that what people consider to be serious reasons will differ greatly!)

Swearing/profanity/bad language – what’s a sin and what is merely crude?

Etc…

Plenty of morally grey topics, which the Church provides guidelines, but unique situations require serious consideration…which is exactly what is required for practicing NFP.
 
So, How many children are we supposed to have?

Is there a target we are shooting for? If we reach our target relatively quickly, what do we do for the rest of our marriage?
 
Glennford said:
And, since we’e talking about a grave matter, here selfish=gravely sinful.

So, that would be something to work really hard to avoid.
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Actually, where does it say using NFP selfishly is gravely sinful? It says contraception is gravely sinful, but it is an intrinsic evil and all. I don’t think it actually ever addresses how or what sin ‘abuse’ of NFP would be.
 
PaulinVA said:
So, How many children are we supposed to have?

Is there a target we are shooting for? If we reach our target relatively quickly, what do we do for the rest of our marriage?
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Yeah, we’re shooting for the target of getting our family to heaven. If you end up with all the kids you are likely to have, due to serious reasons, you spend the rest of your life taking care of them and once grown enjoying the family God gave you 😛

We aren’t talking about just HAVING the babies. We’re talking about adding a new life you have to feed, cloth, educate and not always just for the rest of you marriage, sometimes for the rest of your life.
 
LJN21 said:
Yeah, we’re shooting for the target of getting our family to heaven. If you end up with all the kids you are likely to have, due to serious reasons, you spend the rest of your life taking care of them and once grown enjoying the family God gave you 😛

We aren’t talking about just HAVING the babies. We’re talking about adding a new life you have to feed, cloth, educate and not always just for the rest of you marriage, sometimes for the rest of your life.
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You aren’t talking about just having babies. Glennford is.

From reading his posts here and on other threads about NFP, he wants a list from the Church. That list needs to include every possible reason for using NFP. If you don’t have one of the reasons on the list, you shouldn’t be using NFP.

Why does he want this list? Because he and his wife used NFP for selfish reasons and he is now upset that he can’t go back and change what he did. And he blames the Church for this.

Glennford, if I am wrong, please let us know what your point is.
 
maryjk said:
You aren’t talking about just having babies. Glennford is.
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Right I’m sorry, I mistook Paul’s statement for “what are you going to do after you use NFP for your 2.5 kids.” Which considering how he normally posts on the subject, I should have realized I misread it.
 
Glennford said:
Also, those posters who think NFP is self-regulating, in that people without a serious reason will cave and have sex…have you never lived this lifestyle? … Walk a mile in my moccasins, then tell me how self-regulating NFP is.
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I’ve been walking in these moccasins for the entire 13 years of my marriage and I so far have 2 ‘planned’ and 1 ‘what the heck’ baby to show for it. I’m not sure what your issue was, but every NFP couple I know has at least 1, usually 2 or more ‘what the heck’ kids. Boats don’t look very important during the fertile time. If they DO still look much more important, maybe there are deeper issues to resolve.
 
manualman said:
I’ve been walking in these moccasins for the entire 13 years of my marriage and I so far have 2 ‘planned’ and 1 ‘what the heck’ baby to show for it. I’m not sure what your issue was, but every NFP couple I know has at least 1, usually 2 or more ‘what the heck’ kids. Boats don’t look very important during the fertile time. If they DO still look much more important, maybe there are deeper issues to resolve.
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LJN21 said:
Oh yeah.

13 years of marriage, 6 living kids, one very scary miscarriage. Three of those were technically “oops”.
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21 years of marriage. One planned child. No “oops.” Why? Because I have had a serious reason to abstain.

If I didn’t, I would have given in so many times…:o
 
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