Why does one hate the Catholic Church?

[Prodigal_Son1]

So you’re saying that Jesus wants us to regard today’s Church hierarchy as the modern-day scribes and Pharisees?

If Jesus had confidence, and taught us to have confidence, that God’s truth was safe through the scribes and Pharisees, then we can have confidence in those appointed men, and their successors, that God’s truth is safe. If you read on beyond the passage, I provided, you’ll see they are warned about their teachings.

Christ knew He was building a Church, to replace the Temple. Christ, chose and, appointed men over His Church. Christ knew He was appointing one to tend His flock. All appointed in his Church.

Joh 15:16 You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

**Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Joh 21:15 When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.**

1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
1Co 12:30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

Those appointments were ‘offices’. Those that walked, talked and lived with Him through His ministry understood the scriptures, as He had taught them. They knew those offices were to be filled, if vacated.

Act 1:16 Men, brethren, the scripture must needs be fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was the leader of them that apprehended Jesus:
Act 1:17 Who was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18 And he indeed hath possessed a field of the reward of iniquity, and being hanged, burst asunder in the midst: and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem: so that the same field was called in their tongue, Haceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

Are there sinful men in the Church? Yes. Were they sinful men in the Church’s past? Yes. Were they sinful men that Christ built His upon? Yes.

The Apostles ran away from Him when He was taken. Peter denied Him. Thomas doubted Him. Christ still returned to them and commanded them to carry out His instructions. He did not replace a one of them. If He didn’t replace a one of them, how can we attempt to replace any of them. It’s not our place to judge them. It’s our place to obey Him. He will judge them and all of us, according to His teachings. Christ never taught us to abandon those men of authority.

 

[elvisman]

I don’t mind being quoted at all - I stand by what I said regarding that particular doctrine.

Then don’t accuse me of bearing false witness.
I merely held you accountable for what you said - and I was right.

When you hold to one single Catholic doctrine as being, “BS” as you put it) - you are then calling it ALL BS.

**The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
You can’t escape into relativism to hide from it.

 

[Roy5]

I certainly don’t hate the Catholic Church, though it has a very checkered history. I just finished the book entitled “Champlain’s Dream” which, among other things, recalls the St. Bartholomew Massacre and other crimes of the church. Yes, Protestants also committed crimes in retaliation. Neither camp has reason to be that self-righteous.

My beef with traditional Catholicism is that it denies freedom of thought to its adherents. I am by nature a curious soul, who enjoys reading about and even entertaining certain beliefs that may conflict with the doctrines of the Church. For example, I have a very hard time with the sinlessness of Mary. Why is that necessary to faith? Why should she escape the Biblical saying that "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23)? And why is it viewed as scandalous that Mary should have sinned? Didn't all the other saints sin? Etc.

Catholicism should open itself up more to more freedom of thought so that people like me don't feel stifled. Whenever we make that point, of course, we are scolded and told that we are egotists, that we are not humble enough to follow others who knew more, and other ad hominum arguments. 

 Fortunately, most Catholics don't take such a narrow view and millions upon millions dissent on this or that. They are dismissed as 'cafeteria Catholics'. The more Catholics become educated the more they will demand the right to think for themselves. The current scandal doesn't help, either.

 But God bless Catholics and people of every faith. We all are God's children, and it's time that some of these CAF posters show a bit of humility and stop claiming to belong to the one true apostolic church. The true church is in heaven, certainly not here in earth.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I certainly don’t hate the Catholic Church, though it has a very checkered history. I just finished the book entitled “Champlain’s Dream” which, among other things, recalls the St. Bartholomew Massacre and other crimes of the church. Yes, Protestants also committed crimes in retaliation. Neither camp has reason to be that self-righteous.

My beef with traditional Catholicism is that it denies freedom of thought to its adherents. I am by nature a curious soul, who enjoys reading about and even entertaining certain beliefs that may conflict with the doctrines of the Church. For example, I have a very hard time with the sinlessness of Mary. Why is that necessary to faith? Why should she escape the Biblical saying that "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23)? And why is it viewed as scandalous that Mary should have sinned? Didn't all the other saints sin? Etc.

Catholicism should open itself up more to more freedom of thought so that people like me don't feel stifled. Whenever we make that point, of course, we are scolded and told that we are egotists, that we are not humble enough to follow others who knew more, and other ad hominum arguments. 

 Fortunately, most Catholics don't take such a narrow view and millions upon millions dissent on this or that. They are dismissed as 'cafeteria Catholics'. The more Catholics become educated the more they will demand the right to think for themselves. The current scandal doesn't help, either.

 But God bless Catholics and people of every faith. We all are God's children, and it's time that some of these CAF posters show a bit of humility and stop claiming to belong to the one true apostolic church. The true church is in heaven, certainly not here in earth.

My response to this is in post #500…

The one true apostolic Church is the Church that Christ built, on earth.

 

[elvisman]

Catholicism should open itself up more to more freedom of thought so that people like me don’t feel stifled. Whenever we make that point, of course, we are scolded and told that we are egotists, that we are not humble enough to follow others who knew more, and other ad hominum arguments.

Fortunately, most Catholics don’t take such a narrow view and millions upon millions dissent on this or that. They are dismissed as ‘cafeteria Catholics’. The more Catholics become educated the more they will demand the right to think for themselves. The current scandal doesn’t help, either.

But God bless Catholics and people of every faith. We all are God’s children, and it’s time that some of these CAF posters show a bit of humility and stop claiming to belong to the one true apostolic church. The true church is in heaven, certainly not here in earth.

The Church should change so that YOU won’t feel stifled? This is about the most arrogant statement I’ve read on this thread.
God should change for YOU? People must change for God - NOT the other way around.

The current scandal has nothing to do with whether or not the Catholic Church **
The church should change so that people like youis God’s only Church - it IS. Unfortunately, there are some unholy individuals that have done some evil things within the Church. That doesn’t negate the fact that Jesus only set up ONE Church - ONLY one - and we can trace ourselves all the way back to Peter and the Apostles.

As for those who pick and choose what they want to believe in and call themselves “Catholic” - they ARE Cafeteria Catholics. They are a cancer to those who are honestly searching for the truth.

**You seem to be full of relativist notions about what the Church is - and you’re dead wrong. The truth is not up for grabs - it IS what it IS and Jesus’ Church is the “pillar and foundation of that truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). **
Everything else apart from the truth is a lie.

Not you or any other sect can claim this but the Church - not even the Scriptures themselves. Thy were born from the Church.**

 

[Protestant101]

God replaces Shebna with Eliakim. The keys to the House of David are given to Eliakim and so is the power to bind and loose – to open and shut. This is the position of Prime Minister or agent (vicar) – just as Peter is given this office of Prime Minister of Jesus or Vicar:

Matt. 16:19
“I will give you (Peter) the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

By the looks of your posting, you have no idea what these “keys” actually are. For once; I would like to see a Catholic explain specifically how many keys there are, what they are; etc. etc., and I would like to see accurate Bible references for each.

 

[Protestant101]

Not you or any other sect can claim this but the Church - not even the Scriptures themselves. Thy were born* from* the Church.

The Church was born from, and is sustained by God’s Word.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Roman Catholic Church certainly HAS NOT been around “forever” like God’s Word, now has it? So much for your theory of your denomination writing the Bible.

 

[CMatt25]

I certainly don’t hate the Catholic Church, though it has a very checkered history. I just finished the book entitled “Champlain’s Dream” which, among other things, recalls the St. Bartholomew Massacre and other crimes of the church. Yes, Protestants also committed crimes in retaliation. Neither camp has reason to be that self-righteous.

My beef with traditional Catholicism is that it denies freedom of thought to its adherents. I am by nature a curious soul, who enjoys reading about and even entertaining certain beliefs that may conflict with the doctrines of the Church. For example, I have a very hard time with the sinlessness of Mary. Why is that necessary to faith? Why should she escape the Biblical saying that "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23)? And why is it viewed as scandalous that Mary should have sinned? Didn't all the other saints sin? Etc.

Catholicism should open itself up more to more freedom of thought so that people like me don't feel stifled. Whenever we make that point, of course, we are scolded and told that we are egotists, that we are not humble enough to follow others who knew more, and other ad hominum arguments. 

 Fortunately, most Catholics don't take such a narrow view and millions upon millions dissent on this or that. They are dismissed as 'cafeteria Catholics'. The more Catholics become educated the more they will demand the right to think for themselves. The current scandal doesn't help, either.

 But God bless Catholics and people of every faith. We all are God's children, and it's time that some of these CAF posters show a bit of humility and stop claiming to belong to the one true apostolic church. The true church is in heaven, certainly not here in earth.

Ah yes. Not humble and cafeteria. Don’t forget ignorant and uneducated. We see that here on CAF too much. Where those millions and millions are also told by the more humble “perfect” Catholics that they are ignorant and uneducated when they may simply just not agree and it has nothing whatsoever to do with ignorance, knowledge, or whether properly educated or catechized.

 

[adrift]

I certainly don’t hate the Catholic Church, though it has a very checkered history. I just finished the book entitled “Champlain’s Dream” which, among other things, recalls the St. Bartholomew Massacre and other crimes of the church. Yes, Protestants also committed crimes in retaliation. Neither camp has reason to be that self-righteous.

Crimes of the Church? Members of the Church did these crime but not the Church.

My beef with traditional Catholicism is that it denies freedom of thought to its adherents.

:bigyikes: Thats right the Church has these cells they put around our heads so we don't have any original thought.:rolleyes: This is so far from the truth that it is hard to believe that you believe it.

 

[CMatt25]

The Church should change so that YOU won’t feel stifled? This is about the most arrogant statement I’ve read on this thread.
God should change for YOU? People must change for God - NOT the other way around.

The current scandal has nothing** to do with whether or not the Catholic Church
The church should change so that people like youis God’s only Church - it IS. Unfortunately, there are some unholy individuals that have done some evil things within the Church. That doesn’t negate the fact that Jesus only set up ONE Church - ONLY one - and we can trace ourselves all the way back to Peter and the Apostles.

As for those who pick and choose what they want to believe in and call themselves "Catholic" - they ARE Cafeteria Catholics. They are a cancer to those who are honestly searching for the truth.

You seem to be full of relativist notions about what the Church is - and you’re dead wrong. The truth is not up for grabs - it IS what it IS and Jesus’ Church is the “pillar and foundation of that truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).
Everything else apart from the truth is a lie.

Not you or any other sect can claim this but the Church - not even the Scriptures themselves. Thy were born* from* the Church.

A CANCER??? Really Elvis, you should have heard my priest’s homily at weekday Mass today. Father spoke of welcoming all. How it is **un-**Christian not to do so and how we evangelize by example.

And you judge and unwelcome others as a **CANCER??? **

 

[Cinette]

People hate the Catholic Church for the same reasons that some Catholics hate Protestants. Ignorance and closed-mindedness. WE are all Christians born of the same cloth. Although we may disagree on a lot of things, Christ said that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Light. And that if you believe in Him that you shall not die, but have life everlasting.
I grew up in churches that said that “Catholics go to Hell.”
My dad was Catholic and we all left that church immediately (My father got in trouble for marrying a Protestant, he was asked to leave the Catholic Church).
I had a Catholic friend that one day told me that I am going to Hell just because I’m Protestant.
I am no longer his friend.
And yet I remain open to the idea of Catholicism due to my own journey to overcome a prejudice that I was surrounded by.

I know that’s a lot of talk, but I hope it kinda helps.

You hit the nail on the head - the answer is ignorance and closed-mindedness!

I left the Catholic Church for 27 years out of ignorance and now I am back and discover the beauty and truth of the Catholic Church every day. Ignorance is destructive.

Cinette

 

[tomylee1]

nice to meet you.

 

[Cinette]

I once had a photocopy of an article by a very reliable source where it stated that in Boston (some years ago) when the abuse first became news, a newspaper (Boston Chronicle?) reported over 100 times in one month on the same story - so it is exaggerated is it not? This morning I heard on CNN that only 7% of Americans are Catholic or Christians (can’t remember which because I came into the room as this was being announced). Whether it is Christian or just Catholic Christian is this percentage not incorrect? I know there are 60+ million Catholics in the USA. Would that be 7%?

Pope Benedict is a very holy man - he is a gift from God to the world. The Catholic Church is unthreatening and does more for humanity than any other institution - this is true through all ages.

The greater media does hate the Catholic Church and by that I include Hollywood and fundamentalist authors (there are thousands of anti-Catholic books - can anyone name one Catholic author who has written a book attacking non-Catholics - apologetics is not attacking by the way).

Matt 13:24-30 applies. We can expect that the devil will attack the Church. He always attacks those closest to God. When my son was converting to Christianity he experienced terrible attacks by the devil. At the time I didn’t give the devil much thought but my son is not an alarmist, he is a very level headed person so when he told me about this I took note and believed.

The media loves to attack Pius XII for not doing enough for Jews during WWII yet facts are coming out every day that show that he saved between 860 000 - 920 000. He did more than even other Jews to save Jews!! And people still believe the lies!

I believe that many people who hate the Catholic Church do so because they want to do what they like. They do not wish to follow the precepts of God. They reject history. It makes them uncomfortable - they want to yield to their own desires. If they would just stop in their tracks and take a good look, they would see what beauty is the Church and they would realise that happiness can be found in great measure.

Many people are like sheep - they believe anything they read in the media - they do now have the power of analysis - they can easily be manipulated.

God bless you all
Cinette

 

[schaick]

Read John 13 through 18 and tell me who received His promises that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, would lead them and guide them in all things. As far as I can see, these words were only spoken to the Apostles, and not the multitude. The Apostles were chosen and appointed by Him, the multitude were not. Today, we compare the multitude to the layperson, because they did not receive the authority.

Your argument could be taken to mean the Holy Spirit no longer comes to anyone today it was simply for the Disciples. There are some out there that do believe this.

You are forgetting this verse-

Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Are you not a disciple of Christ?

This doesn’t mean the teaching, as written by John, is of no use to us, it is. We can see some of the things Christ taught the authoritative men of the Church and that He commanded them to teach us to observe.

Nowhere in scriptures will you find someone who ‘appointed’ themself to a position of authority within the Church Christ built.

Who said anything about appointing themselves- people are called by the Holy Spirit.

Do your Preists go to the grade schoools and say to a young man- you are to be a Priest- I appoint you!

History, both Church and secular, shows us the Catholic Church has been in existence since the very early years. It also shows us the ‘birth’ of the Protestant Churches through the reformation, in the 1500s. Show us with supporting documentation that there was in fact another Church, a Church that had possession of the scriptures and held those scriptures for hundreds of years until we have them today.

Christ built a Church, first, that gave us the scriptures, in that order. The men wrote scriptures and passed them along to those they had appointed into the Church. They also passed along the interpretations. Paul wrote letters of instruction, or correction, and stated he would set things in order when he got there. We do not have that information he set in order when he did get there. That was spoken. That was explanations of those things he wrote.

Yes it was a universal Church for all. Yes the Disiples, Apostles put GOD’s Word in writing- even before it was canonized it was being passed around - not as an entire New Testament but as letters, codices.

Then along came the Catholic Church around 300 AD. The Catholic Church slowly started closing the gate to the Kingdom of Heaven from all that do not follow their one fallible man until now it is slammed shut.

There isn’t another Church- not sure why Catholics keep saying that.

We have access to all the Scriptures-local libraries, on-line, etc.

Non-Catholic Christians have asurance through Scripture that we are in fact members of the Church Christ is building, even if the Catholic Church thinks otherwise.

So tell me what were the spoken instructions? Do you have proof of what was said?

 

[schaick]

That is how it comes across, schaick. You have made a value judgement about something you clearly know nothing about, and persist in insulting our faith practices based upon your lack of knowledge and experience. It is called bigotry.

And you aren’t insulting mine!?!

Since you cannot discern the difference between a Sacred Tradition and a common human tradition, you are in a difficult position to judge, don’t you think? Complicate that with a deficient understanding of salvation, and what do you get? Someone criticizing something they know very little about, finding it deficient, and insulting the adherants.

LOL! No what I am seeing is that Catholics don’t even know the difference between Sacred traditon and human tradition and Scripture.

One Catholic is saying it is based on Scripture one is saying absolutly not based on Scripture.

No one has as yet been able to give me an answer as to **what **the Sacred Traditions are.

When I say and ask -*You haven’t proved anything about these “Sacred Traditions” whatever they might be. Please, show the chain of transmission. *

What kind of answer is:
***“I thought you said you believed there was no Apostolic Succession?” ***

What I believe is that in the Holy Bible the Apostles have given us everything we need for our salvation. If that is not the case then one would have to say that GOD’s Word is insufficient and that is not the case.

I have never said Sacred Tradtion is a bad thing.

**I hold to a Sacred Traditon - the Bible is GOD’s Word, infallible and everything we need for our salvation is mentioned in it.

I can show you the chain of transmission of my Tradition:**

I know it is GOD’s Word because of the miracles, the eyewitnesses to the events, prophecies fulfilled, etc. I know the transmission: Jesus → the Disciples and Paul → their students and the earliest Church Fathers referencing the materials written by the Apostles.

 

[schaick]

Then why can’t you show me that using scriptures?

That is like showing you a science book is true because it says so.

I know it is GOD’s Word because of the miracles, the eyewitnesses to the events, prophecies fulfilled, etc. I know the transmission: Jesus → the Disciples and Paul → their students and the earliest Church Fathers referencing the materials written by the Apostles before it was even put into a canon!

Everything that convinced the Disciples that Jesus is GOD’s Word incarnate we have.

The Bible clearly shows that the men, Jesus appointed, read scriptures and understood a vacated office was to be filled. Offices that Christ made the promises too.

I agree there were offices, but they must follow what Paul dictated as the example of who could be a leader and the Old Testament rules of Binding and Loosing must be followed.

Ok, that’s what you say, but you still haven’t shown us where scriptures say that.

Why does GOD’s Word have to say it must be the final rule? Isn’t it GOD that we must please?

If you are a follower of GOD it will be your final authority. If you are not a follower of GOD then you will follow any tradition that is thrown at you.

OK so you have no idea of how a Sacred Tradition came about. There is no way of testing it’s truth.

How about testing the person - presenting the new tradition that must be followed- what are the fruits of that person does he really have the Holy Spirit?

You throw in your misconception of what Catholics must do to distract from your own inability to support your view with scriptures, it appears.

Not usre the reason for this statement- if Catholics don’t have to follow the Pope why do Christians have to?

I apologize, but I have not seen your scriptural argument stating that you and only you have received the correct interpretation. There are many interpertations, all coming from the one set of scriptures. Show us from scriptures where it’s obvious what is added?

Who ever said I was the only one with the correct interpretation, all have access to it- Trinitarian Christians have it.

You have not addressed Paul’s letters of correction and how he stated he would set things in order when he got there. There is nothing written about the things he set in order. Those things were a part of the oral tradition, traditions we are to hold too, whether spoken or written. Now, that is scriptural.

So tell me what did Paul set straight?

John tells us that there were many things Christ did, that are not written. More traditions we are to hold too, whether written or spoken.

What are they?

Why did the people of Nehemiah 8 need the priests to explain scriptures to them and cause them to understand, if scriptures interpret themselves to us?

They were probably illiterate and had not been to Junior High and understand the rules to follow when interpreting what aa author wanted to pass down to his reader.

{QUOTE]You are throwing things you reject, that Catholics interpret, to avoid the issue, which is where is the scriptures telling us the scriptures are the ‘final authority’? You are using a double standard here. Catholic teachings are not in scriptures to my satisfaction, but my teachins not in scriptures are acceptable?

No actually hoping you would tell me if this was one of the Sacred Traditions.

Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was conceived is in Scripture - that she remained a virgin or not is not mentioned in Scripture. Is this considered one of your Sacred Traditions?

There is real presence in the Bread and Wine that is scripture- how it happens or the exact form is not in Scripture. Is this considered one of your Sacred Traditions?

I am simply asking for the mention of what the Sacred Traditions are and the transmission chain of how you got them.

 

[schaick]

Then Christ’s teaching about the chair of Moses is patently absurd?

Exodus 18
15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and laws.”

You see here GOD’s Law and decrees - no one elses.

Binding and loosing
“In the life of Israel, they had a court system set up to address the problems and issues that faced the everyday life of an Israelite. The largest and highest court in the land, was of course the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. But the smallest court and the one that truly dealt with the everyday affairs of the people was called a Bet-din , or “house of judgment”. This smallest court was comprised of two or three judges. When these judges met to hear matters, it was believed that the Glory or Shekinah of God rest upon them. It was for this reason that they were regarded as “elohim” or mighty ones. This will throw some light on another misunderstood passage found in John 10:34-35. They were called ‘mighty ones’ or elohim, because when they were in session, with the Shekinah present, it was believed that they spoken for God. Their decisions were the decisions of God. What they forbid (to bind), was what was forbidden by heaven, and what they permitted (to loose), was permitted by heaven. What they bound on earth, had already been bound in heaven, and what they loosed on earth, had already been loosed in heaven.”

Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible

Matthew 16
19and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.’

Matthew 18
18`Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.

 

[Roy5]

Again, I certainly do not hate the Catholic church. It does enormous good in the world, such as feeding the poor, healing the sick through its hospitals and educating the uneducated through its schools.

 However, there is a struggle for the soul of Catholicism. Is it going to be a narrow, judgmental, harsh enforcer of doctrines that are difficult to believe? For example, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary. Where is that found in the Bible? One has to wonder if that some of the dogmas attached to Mary were borrowed from the various cults - e. g., Isis - that rivaled Christianity in the early years of the Christian era. 

 There are traditionalist Catholics, well-represented here on CAF, who are adamant in demanding total adherence to doctrine, and then there are more open Catholics (the majority today) who understand that millions of people need space for independent thinking. These are condemned by the traditionalists and purists, but they are the hope of the church, as they are growing by leaps and bounds. While Catholicism still claims over 95% of Italians and Spanish, for example, perhaps 15-20% in those countries adhere to Catholic doctrine. Spain, for example, now has gay marriage. Etc. I know that in Quebec, once devoutly Catholic, less than 10% now attend Mass, and Catholic churches are up for sale in towns where everyone went to Mass a half-century ago.

 For those who believe that the Holy Spirit will always safeguard the church, relax, you have nothing to worry about. Why be so angry at the rest of us? But millions are concerned that unless the church is less dogmatic it will lose many who are truly faithful to Christ but simply are honest and cannot sincerely accept all the doctrines and practices that the church insists upon. I think of Limbo, for example. Catholics were expected to believe that 50 years ago, and it was taught in parochial schoolsm even though now they say it never was a dogma. Hm! Now, it is viewed as a 'possible explanation' but not a required belief. Frankly, there should be more of this reassessment, allowing latitude to those who want to remain Catholic but cannot believe what they find unbelievable. There are simply vast areas in the realm of theology that Christians should be permitted diverse opinions on. We are not children any longer but thoughtful adults.

  I'm aware that such talk brings down 'anathemas' on our heads, but I'll let God do the judging. Personally,  I think he rejoices when we use our God-given brains to explore the mystery and majesty of his creation without the limitations too often imposed by the church. It's as though the traditionalists are afraid of independent thinking, that despite what they say they don't have adequate faith in God's purposes being fulfilled. Maybe, consciously or subconsciously, they agree with St. Thomas Aquinas, that heretics should be delivered over to the civil authorities to be executed. They seem filled with the spirit of the "Syllabus of Errors". that anti-democratic edict of Pius IX, the Pope during those reign the Pope was declared infallable in faith and morals - and also proclaimed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. 

  I really need to do other things, but thought it important that I plead for a more truly catholic church where different views are tolerated and even welcomed. 

 God bless all his children, of every faith, color, country and condition.

 

[Cinette]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
Read John 13 through 18 and tell me who received His promises that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, would lead them and guide them in all things. As far as I can see, these words were only spoken to the Apostles, and not the multitude. The Apostles were chosen and appointed by Him, the multitude were not. Today, we compare the multitude to the layperson, because they did not receive the authority.

Your argument could be taken to mean the Holy Spirit no longer comes to anyone today it was simply for the Disciples. There are some out there that do believe this.
I do not think that Prodigal Son was saying that the Holy Spirit comes only to the Apostles - I understand that to be in regard to Apostolic Succession and the Deposit of Faith.

The Holy Spirit is for all of us and in all time. I believe that the Magisterium is guided by the Holy Spirit. I believe that we are ALL sinners and it is a constant battle between good and evil. The teachings of the Church are protected and inspired by the Holy Spirit but we the people and the clergy are all sinners and we need to reach out to God through the Sacraments to help us.

Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Schaick!

I do not know what history books you read but your knowledge of the Catholic Church is not correct.

I get a sense that all this has been explained to you before but you choose to take no notice so I shall leave it to someone who has more patience than I to deal with you. sorry.

God bless you and may the Holy Spirit guide you
Cinette