Why does one hate the Catholic Church?

[schaick]

The bible is a useful tool for teaching for sure. But where does it say that the bible is the foundation for your salvation? As someone stated on my other thread, you don’t even need the bible to be saved. It is through the Church that we are taught that salvation is only through God, not the bible.

BUT you need the information that is in the Holy Bible.

A parents teaches a child about GOD, Jesus and what HE did for us- hopefully the information is from the Holy Bible.

Why would you give your children information form anything else when we have in our hands what came from the Apostles-eyewitnesses to Christ?

We read the Holy Bible to see what the requirements for our salvation are.

It is by the standards in the Holy Bible one can tell if a preacher is preaching the true Gospel.

 

[CMatt25]

Your treatment of those you correct seems very much like the Elephant trainers using sharp hooks to punish the animal and force its compliance. The Elephant will comply only for so long before it begins a rampage that is both vicious and massively distructive

Or possibly the other “animals” lurking in the background might decide they do not want to be trained by that particular church, eh trainer, and will look elsewhere. So even if the elephant does not go on a vicious, massively destructive rampage, the trainer might not only lose the elephant but others as well. And then the trainer is left standing with his whips and hooks but with fewer “animals” to “train”.

 

[schaick]

So…when the Protestants left the Church they didn’t take these references that were proved by the bible with them and therefore they had to rebuild on the knowledge of the Christian faith?

Not sure what you mean?

Every true Christian believes in the Nicene Creed. It passes the test!

Great site:
prayerfoundation.org/nicene_creed_scripture_basis.htm

What was left out were the extras- those things that are not needed for our salvation. Especially if the whole story is not mentioned in the Holy Bible.

 

[tweetymom]

Or possibly the other “animals” lurking in the background might decide they do not want to be trained by that particular church, eh trainer, and will look elsewhere. So even if the elephant does not go on a vicious, massively destructive rampage, the trainer might not only lose the elephant but others as well. And then the trainer is left standing with his whips and hooks but with fewer “animals” to “train”.

Doesn’t do anything to encouragr the elephant.

 

[Darron_Steele]

Or possibly the other “animals” lurking in the background might decide they do not want to be trained by that particular church, eh trainer, and will look elsewhere. So even if the elephant does not go on a vicious, massively destructive rampage, the trainer might not only lose the elephant but others as well. And then the trainer is left standing with his whips and hooks but with fewer “animals” to “train”.

However, CMatt25: those of us who know anything about Catholics and Catholicism know that this individual is not representative of you all.

He is a self-appointed Inquisitor in a time when the old Inquisitions are gone. Rather than roast those he decides are `wayward’ with fire, he roasts them with overheated words.

Most Catholics are capable of discussing their faiths with outsiders and `not entirely convinced’ adherents in ways that are fair and charitable.

I remember watching a priest argue with a Catholic who had approached him about birth control. I did not understand why she approached him to argue with him; he does not set the Vatican’s policies and has no (name removed by moderator)ut. He is to uphold those policies. He discussed their disagreement calmly and without slurring her.

He was so nice that I wanted to step in and defend him, pointing out that he has no (name removed by moderator)ut with the Vatican’s policies and must uphold them. If she was not happy with the policy, she could either simply not follow it or leave. I stayed out of it, of course. In the entire exchange, no matter how worked up she got, he not once impugned her faithfulness or loyalty to Catholicism or said anything negative about her.

Many laypeople could benefit from the examples of priests and laypeople just like him. Fortunately, Catholics who approach disagreement similar to him seem to be the majority.

 

[tweetymom]

However, CMatt25: those of us who know anything about Catholics and Catholicism know that this individual is not representative of you all.

Most Catholics are capable of discussing their faiths with outsiders and `not entirely convinced’ adherents in ways that are fair and charitable.

I remember watching a priest argue with a Catholic who had approached him about birth control. I did not understand why she approached him to argue with him; he does not set the Vatican’s policies and has no (name removed by moderator)ut. He is to uphold those policies. He discussed their disagreement calmly and without slurring her.

He was so nice that I wanted to step in and defend him, pointing out that he has no (name removed by moderator)ut with the Vatican’s policies and has to uphold them. If she was not happy with the policy, she could either simply not follow it or leave. In the entire exchange, no matter how worked up she got, he not once impugned her faithfulness or loyalty to Catholicism or said anything negative about her.

Some times the elephant trainer thinks that using whips and chains is the way to control. More can be done in love. Hmmmmm
Many laypeople could benefit from the examples of priests just like him.

 

[schaick]

I’ll show you where - in the Old Testament as well as the New.

Acts 1:20 says, "For it is written in the Book of Psalms (referring to Psalm 109:8): ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: ‘May another take his office.’"

This clearly speaks to the reality of Apostolic Succession.
Barnabas was considered an Apostle. Tell me something - WHO appointed him? Jesus?
NOPE - the Apostles did.

Look at how the replacement was chosen all believers were involved in choosing. The Holy Spirit was involved-they prayed and cast lots.

Acts1
15In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry.”

18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20"For," said Peter, “it is written in the book of Psalms,
" ‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and,
" ‘May another take his place of leadership.’ 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Bishops in the early Church years were voted on by all the people of that congregation.

"For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." We have in our hands today the writings of the witnesses of the resurrection!!

 

[paperwight]

Or possibly the other “animals” lurking in the background might decide they do not want to be trained by that particular church, eh trainer, and will look elsewhere. So even if the elephant does not go on a vicious, massively destructive rampage, the trainer might not only lose the elephant but others as well. And then the trainer is left standing with his whips and hooks but with fewer “animals” to “train”.

Indeed, yes, CMatt25, a vitally important point and well made.

Excellent post, Porath. I agree with every word of yours, too.

As St, Francis de Sales said, when talking about religion to other people, we are to remember that more flies are caught with honey than with vinegar.

 

[CMatt25]

However, CMatt25: those of us who know anything about Catholics and Catholicism know that this individual is not representative of you all./QUOTE]

:aok: I thank God you do.

 

[Bill_Pick]

True, true. I guess I wanted to hear from the Protestant side why it bothers them so much that Catholics do these “works” to become closer with Christ.

What good are works with out faith

 

[schaick]

I believe that God didn’t yell down from heaven saying pick this canon or pick that canon. As this passage states “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)." What this means is that at one point in history God did “breathe” certain passages in the gospels at his people, but he did not breathe what is to be in the bible at the exact second that it was being compiled. God picked the canons of the bible by setting a priority on his teachings while on earth. Some teachings he definitely would stress more then others and the apostles would realize this. So when the bible was being assembled into it’s current form, the successors who were doing the assembling knew what would be the inspired scriptures due to the priority placed on certain gospels by Christ when he was on earth. And the successors of the apostles knew what was inspired and what wasn’t because of the previous priests or bishops that would hand down these teachings. So it was because of the Church that God used that we now have the bible. And through that Church is where we get the real meaning of the bible.

I think I understand why we differ so in opinion and it makes me very sad… Even though the Holy Bible says:

*All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” * And all the other verses about Scripture, our salvation, Jesus all of it.

Your statement: What this means is that at one point in history God did “breathe” certain passages in the gospels at his people,

Only part of the Scripture for you is GOD’s Word, TRUTH.

You have absolutely no idea which parts of the Scripture is GOD breathed!?

You have no idea which is important for your salvation!?

You have to belong to a Church to tell you which verses are important and which are not. You have to depend on mere man and not GOD for your truth.

I Know that all of the Holy Bible is GOD inspired..

I now what is needed for my salvation.

GOD inspired- the thoughts, ideas were put in the minds of the authors and GOD allowed man to use their own words to get HIS Message put into the written Word.

GOD showed us our flaws through His Word [Laws], saved us through His incarnate WORD, and the whole story is told to us in His written Word!!

 

[Carlan]

tweetymom:

Originally Posted by Darron Steele
I remember watching a priest argue with a Catholic who had approached him about birth control. I did not understand why she approached him to argue with him; he does not set the Vatican’s policies and has no (name removed by moderator)ut. He is to uphold those policies. He discussed their disagreement calmly and without slurring her.

He was so nice that I wanted to step in and defend him, pointing out that he has no (name removed by moderator)ut with the Vatican’s policies and has to uphold them. If she was not happy with the policy, she could either simply not follow it or leave. In the entire exchange, no matter how worked up she got, he not once impugned her faithfulness or loyalty to Catholicism or said anything negative about her.

From Tweety. Some times the elephant trainer thinks that using whips and chains is the way to control. More can be done in love. Hmmmmm
Many laypeople could benefit from the examples of priests just like him.

Sounds to me like this Priest, probably knew the dissenter, quietly told her the
Catholic teaching on artificial birth control and left her to ponder for herself her question, leaving her with the decision to obey Christ’s truth or to continue in disobedience at her own peril. Truth and Peace , Carlan

 

[PORATH]

You seem to be a very insightful person; based on the answer you got, you can see that you were right.

Make no mistake, I believe elvisman to be completely correct and just in his admonishments. It is the harshness in the delivery of his words with which I disagree. We are called to be kind and charitable with our works.

Additionally, regardless of how long I have been a member of this forum or how many of the threads I have read, I know kindness and I know the lack of it.

May we all be of one mind, spirit, and faith in the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOLSTOLIC CHURCH.

 

[Darron_Steele]

Make no mistake, I believe elvisman to be completely correct and just in his admonishments. It is the harshness in the delivery of his words with which I disagree…

Yeah, I understand.

Comparison #1
It is sort of like knowing someone left automobile lights on.

If you approach the person, tap the person on the shoulder, and explain it, there is no problem.

If you approach the person, grab a board and and hit the person upside the head, and then explain it, there is a problem.

Comparison #2
It is sort of like knowing someone left automobile lights on.

If you approach the person, tap the person on the shoulder, and explain it, there is no problem.

If you approach the person, tap the person on the shoulder,
a) call the person an idiot who wants to wear out the battery,
b) call the person a show-off who wants to have people jump the automobile so s/he can show it off, etc.
while you explain the lights being left on, there is a problem.

Point:
There is nothing wrong with telling someone you think s/he is wrong. There is something wrong with being nasty about it.

 

[tweetymom]

Yeah, I understand.

Comparison #1
It is sort of like knowing someone left automobile lights on.

If you approach the person, tap the person on the shoulder, and explain it, there is no problem.

If you approach the person, grab a board and and hit the person upside the head, and then explain it, there is a problem.

Comparison #2
It is sort of like knowing someone left automobile lights on.

If you approach the person, tap the person on the shoulder, and explain it, there is no problem.

If you approach the person, tap the person on the shoulder,
a) call the person an idiot who wants to wear out the battery,
b) call the person a show-off who wants to have people jump the automobile so s/he can show it off, etc.
while you explain the lights being left on, there is a problem.

Point:
There is nothing wrong with telling someone you think s/he is wrong. There is something wrong with being nasty about it.

And you are so right. But some people feed their ego this way. Thats one reason to ignore nasty people who ever they are.

 

[Roblox84]

I think I understand why we differ so in opinion and it makes me very sad… Even though the Holy Bible says:

*All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” * And all the other verses about Scripture, our salvation, Jesus all of it.

Your statement: What this means is that at one point in history God did “breathe” certain passages in the gospels at his people,

Only part of the Scripture for you is GOD’s Word, TRUTH.

You have absolutely no idea which parts of the Scripture is GOD breathed!?

You have no idea which is important for your salvation!?

You have to belong to a Church to tell you which verses are important and which are not. You have to depend on mere man and not GOD for your truth.

I Know that all of the Holy Bible is GOD inspired..

I now what is needed for my salvation.

GOD inspired- the thoughts, ideas were put in the minds of the authors and GOD allowed man to use their own words to get HIS Message put into the written Word.

GOD showed us our flaws through His Word [Laws], saved us through His incarnate WORD, and the whole story is told to us in His written Word!!

Certain parts aren’t God breathed, all of it is. It’s just not “breathed” the way many think, that God decided what was to be in the bible at the time it was compiled. It was “breathed” throughout Christs time on earth. So he used the Church, to compile the bible from the teachings that were brought down by the apostles. The Church is the one that knew what was God breathed and it is because of the Church that we have the bible.

 

[PORATH]

Certain parts aren’t God breathed, all of it is. It’s just not “breathed” the way many think, that God decided what was to be in the bible at the time it was compiled. It was “breathed” throughout Christs time on earth. So he used the Church, to compile the bible from the teachings that were brought down by the apostles. The Church is the one that knew what was God breathed and it is because of the Church that we have the bible.

Additionally, St. Paul said that “ALL” Scripture was profitable. Other faiths limit their understanding of “ALL” to be all of the Holy Bible rather than everything inspired by the Holy Spirit. St. Paul also said that “…remember ALL that I have taught youi…” Surely everything he did and said is not included in the Holy Bible just as everything Christ said and did is not written down in its entirety.

So how do we get the “ALL”?

SACRED TRADITION!!

Non-Catholics have a very difficult time with the Catholic Church because they cannot or will not accept a logical and defensible arguement for Sacred Tradition. Scripture is not a Constitution that can be amended. We must use everything given to us by Christ and the Apostles as they were handed down through the last 2000 years written and unwritten.

 

[Roblox84]

Additionally, St. Paul said that “ALL” Scripture was profitable. Other faiths limit their understanding of “ALL” to be all of the Holy Bible rather than everything inspired by the Holy Spirit. St. Paul also said that “…remember ALL that I have taught youi…” Surely everything he did and said is not included in the Holy Bible just as everything Christ said and did is not written down in its entirety.

So how do we get the “ALL”?

SACRED TRADITION!!

Non-Catholics have a very difficult time with the Catholic Church because they cannot or will not accept a logical and defensible arguement for Sacred Tradition. Scripture is not a Constitution that can be amended. We must use everything given to us by Christ and the Apostles as they were handed down through the last 2000 years written and unwritten.

And to add to that, it is also not man’s traditions. It is the apostles traditions handed down by Christ. Even the bible say’s to adhere to traditions. And it’s not talking about the traditions that were written down in the bible but the apostolic traditions that were left behind by the reformists.

 

[CMatt25]

What good are works with out faith

And faith without works is dead the Apostle James tells us.

 

[CMatt25]

True, true. I guess I wanted to hear from the Protestant side why it bothers them so much that Catholics do these “works” to become closer with Christ.

I think some believe Catholics think we are saved by our works. They don’t have purgatory among their beliefs. So they think Catholics believe indulgences help save rather than what the Church teaches they do. Which is to remove purgatorial punishment either partially or entirely depending on if the work to gain an indulgence is considered to result in a partial indulgence or a plenary indulgence.

But Protestants too express their faith in various works to show their love and faith.