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Protestant101
Guest
Elvis; I know you think you are doing something great so I have decided to just let you go at it. I know other Catholics who think much differently than you, and that’s good enough for me.
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mariahloves
Guest
Yes, not all are but it has nothing to do with the denomination you belong to (unless you’re a Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness, etc.)I have said this many times on this forum, so yes; we are in agreement on that.
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Protestant101
Guest
Well; thats where our disagreement starts. I do not believe quite that way - even about those two denominations. Perhaps, we could say that you just expressed “hate” or somethings that could “promote hatred” towards them by saying that - based, of course, on what some here have been trying to say about my church/me?
Please, realize that I am just kidding! I know you are not promoting hatred by what you said - you have a genuine concern for the truth; you don’t want people to believe a lie, so you try to say something about it. And I think that’s OK to do. Your move to the Catholic Church is also an outgrowth of the idea of seeking for the truth, and not being scared to do whatever it takes to find it and to participate in it. I would be really surprised if you actually, and actively hated the Adventist Church as a result of this change.
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CMatt25
Guest
Darron, same reason why I have posted in reply. But I have given him opportunity upon opportunity to seize the power and begin talking about Christ rather than us. So now I wonder who he glorifies by his personal attacks on individuals.
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tweetymom
Guest
Hmmm wonder!!!
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elvisman
Guest
There IS a distinction between passionate disagreement and telling bald face lies - which is the route you have chosen.
**For example, if a person tells me that they disagree with the Real Presence in the Eucharist based on their interpretation of Scripture - I would passionately debate the matter but I would never call them a liar or a hater. **
It is only when a non-Catholic resorts to lies and historical distortions - such as Lorainne Boettner’s list of “Catholic Inventions” - that it becomes unacceptable.
**Finally - don’t come here telling lies and expect to be treated with the same parity as a charitable non-Cathollic who wants to discuss, debate or learn from Catholic teaching.
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Darron_Steele
Guest
It ought to be clear by now he is not interested in doing the former, and by now it is clear whom he is serving on the latter.
I have to wonder our responsibility in persisting in this thread. The Bible, which Catholicism teaches to be true in faith and morals if I am not mistaken, teaches that reviling people with false accusations is a sin. The more we post, the more we entice him and a few like him to sin. For what purpose? This thread has long ago left its topic and has become more about a few people’s personal attacks against those who `dare’ say anything critical of the Catholic Church – which is contrary to what Vatican II decreed on dealing with “separated brethren.”
It is long past time for this thread to be abandoned. It serves no positive purpose anymore. It no longer discusses its original topic, it only gives a few people an occasion to revile with false accusations, and they do not put the Catholic Church in a good light.
Let those of us who want to discuss topics move on.
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elvisman
Guest
Just telling it like it is, my friend.Elvis; I know you think you are doing something great so I have decided to just let you go at it. I know other Catholics who think much differently than you, and that’s good enough for me.
**Can you deny any of it?
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elvisman
Guest
**Whenever I read threads where people have been exposed for resorting to lying to get their point accross - the usual response is to leave the post and blame it on those who exposed them. Actually - some anti-Catholics simply run *without *warning. **
At least you have the kindness to warn us of your flight.
See you on the forums . . .
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elvisman
Guest
I glorify God with my defense of truth - and in my admonishment of unruly followers.
Here’s some advice:
Stick to the truth and discard your opinions of they come in conflict with that truth and you won’t have to worry about being exposed.
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Proallen
Guest
If you had the time, I think pretty much all of it can be denied simply by using Scripture.Just telling it like it is**, my friend.
Can you deny any of it?
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Proallen
Guest
Your statement makes no sense being as you cannot prove most of your doctrines using Scripture. I in fact challenge you to show us where in Scripture are the Immaculate Conception, The Assumption of Mary into Heaven, Papal Infallibility, the Supremacy of the Catholic church and being saved by faith AND works. The only one I would certainly concede and agree with the Catholic church on is of course the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. That is spelled out clearly and concisely in Scripture numerous times.
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Protestant101
Guest
Ha! ha! Now he’ll go after you and call you all the same things he just did us for the last week or so. But you do make a good point.
This whole thing is a contest between Scripture and (alleged) "church authority.
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elvisman
Guest
I was speaking about SDA beliefs and teachings. If that’s what you’re referring to – we’re in agreement.
First** of all – where in Scripture does it say that we are to adhere to Scripture as our sole authority?**
MY** Bible tells me that the Church is the final authority on earth – not Scripture (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 20:21-23).**
MY** Bible quotes Jesus as telling the leaders of his church that the Holy Spirit would guide them to ALL truth about the things that were coming (John 16:12-15). That includes doctrines, the canon of Scripture and every other truth that was to be revealed.**
In fact - MY Bible calls the Church “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). It doesn’t say that about Scripture. Why do you think that is?
**It’s because the Bible was born from the Church – *****not ***the Church from the Bible.
As for the various doctrines you brought up - we can start a** new**** thread for each one of these so as not to *****hijack ***this thread.
WRONG**.**
If somebody wants to debate these issues without resorting to lies – I am happy to engage them. If it’s a matter of simple disagreement, that’s cool with me. I may believe the person to be wrong – but not anti-Catholic.
Unfortunately, you and some of your anti-Catholic buddies chose to take the low-road . .**
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elvisman
Guest
Oh, what the heck – I just couldn’t resist.
I’ll tackle one of your disagreements with the Church here.
The Supremacy of the Catholic Church** (the one and only Church established by Jesus Christ).**
You cannot understand the teachings of the Church until they first understand the Authority given her by our Lord Jesus. Jesus told the Apostles that the Church would have the final say on matters concerning the Body (Matt. 18:15-18), that even the gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18), and gave them the power to retain and forgive sins (Matt. 16:19, 18:18, John 20:23).
He also assured the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to ALL truth about the things that were coming and that the Holy Spirit would take from what was Jesus’ and declare it to the Church (John 16:13-15). He never said “some truth” or “only up until the 16th century” He said, “ALL truth.”
Paul asserts that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).
In Acts 9:4-5, Jesus equates his Body – the Church - with his very self:
**He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. ******
Notice that Jesus DOESN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” (which is EXACTLY what Paul was doing). Jesus chose to equate the Church with himself.
Acts 15:28-29** is further proof that this Authority rests on the Church. The early Church didn’t appeal solely to Scripture when making doctrinal decisions. At the Council of Jerusalem, the leaders said in a letter:
'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’"**
The writings of the Early Church Fathers – some of whom knew the Apostles – are CLEAR proof that the Church has always held these beliefs.
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elvisman
Guest
continued…
The Early Church Fathers on the Authority of the Catholic Church:
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 A.D. 110]).
Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world**, as we have already said.**
Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church;
**For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. **
(Against Heresies 1:10 A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 A.D.200])
Cyprian
Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built**, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ;**
while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another** (Letters 66 A.D. 253]).
Augustine
*** “For my part,***** I should not believe the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church*****. ***So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manicheus, how can I but consent?"
The Early Church Fathers on the Authority of the Catholic Church:
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 A.D. 110]).
Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world**, as we have already said.**
Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church;
**For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. **
(Against Heresies 1:10 A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 A.D.200])
Cyprian
Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built**, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear or obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ;**
while the Church which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another** (Letters 66 A.D. 253]).
Augustine
*** “For my part,***** I should not believe the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church*****. ***So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manicheus, how can I but consent?"
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schaick
Guest
**WAIT Hold the phone! Are we agreeing!? **
I thought you said:
*Originally Posted by Roblox84
**What this means is that at one point in history God did “breathe” certain passages **in the gospels at his people, but he did not breathe what is to be in the bible at the exact second that it was being compiled. *
I say that **everything we need for our salvation **is in the Holy Bible.
Everything that brings us closer to GOD is in HIS Word.
When a perso has the true and onlt one interpretation the yes the Holy Spirit would lead you on a correct path-application of your faith.
I believe GOD/Holy Spirit had a bit firmer hand in the selection but that’s ok. That is one of those points we don’t need to agree on.
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fbl9
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My friend, while she does not hate the Church, feels that nobody should be a puppet (no church should have authority over what one beleives) of any church body…So adhereing to her new found “freedom” she is presently scouring scripture and coming up with bits and peices which seem to support her belief that we are really aliens…Since no church is infaliable she is correct in her new beleifs cause no church can infallibly say she is wrong.
There is no authority but me me,me,me,me,me,me…
There is no authority but me me,me,me,me,me,me…
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schaick
Guest
This is where I ask:
What Sacred Tradition do Catholics have about Jesus that I need for my salvation that I don’t have?
Where is that Sacred Tradition documented?
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elvisman
Guest
Can you show me - using the Bible alone - where it says that the written word encompasses ALL of God’s word?
**I didn’t think so . . .
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