T
T_More
Guest
And what beliefs are the ones that we all share that assure of us of salvation? How do we determine the important ones and the not so important ones? And one more time, are you not Catholic?
- Status
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tweetymom
Guest
I read the Bible. Yes i go to Catholic Church.
T
T_More
Guest
I think that’s wonderful you read the bible. So do I. Yet we have many people all reading the same book and determining vastly different things on what constitutes salvation. So how do we know what’s vital? We have some who believe in Christ’s words in John 6 about the Eucharist, and others who choose to discard it. We have some who think baptism is vital, and others who think you need only believe in Christ and they’ll be saved and baptism is unnecessary. And the list goes on and on. So what’s the minimum requirement for us? What’s necessary and what’s not?
Thank you for answering the question about being Catholic. It seems there is much you don’t agree with about the CC, no?
T
tweetymom
Guest
You are welcome and you could say there are a few things i dont agree with.
G
guanophore
Guest
No, there are many who do not believe because of ignorance. Protestants stand, for the most part, in the tradition of Apollos. Do you think that Prisca and Aquila considered him an “enemy”? I don’t think so .
A
asmrbd
Guest
Roblox84
I do not hate the Catholic Church. I have studied it. As a Baptist, I want to know what the differences are. God is neither Catholic or Baptist, he is true doctrine unto himself. You have the true Jesus. Some have a wrong or created Jesus, like the Mormons. Ignorance does create walls. But the difference is in how salvation is received.
As Baptists, we have our salvation 100% from the blood of the Lamb. 1Jn5:13 says we can KNOW we are saved. Note “saved” is past tense. We are not in heaven yet, but we have many promises defining saved. Eph 2:8-9 says we have a free gift of salvation, received by faith, not works. Romans says works demands wages.
So if protestants “hate” Catholicism, it is because of the mixture of Mary in Salvation and by receiving Grace through Sacraments. They consider this a serious matter, an eternal matter. We have a simpler grace, we just have it, and it is wonderful. For yet while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. We do not deserve this grace. So we are jealous and defend that no one shares the imputing of Grace.
The CC does not talk much about Jn ch 3, ye must be born again. That is the life changing event where one surrenders all, verses a confirmation. One can be a new creature, a pig to a sheep. But too many Christians show no difference and look and act like the world.
I do not hate the Catholic Church. I have studied it. As a Baptist, I want to know what the differences are. God is neither Catholic or Baptist, he is true doctrine unto himself. You have the true Jesus. Some have a wrong or created Jesus, like the Mormons. Ignorance does create walls. But the difference is in how salvation is received.
As Baptists, we have our salvation 100% from the blood of the Lamb. 1Jn5:13 says we can KNOW we are saved. Note “saved” is past tense. We are not in heaven yet, but we have many promises defining saved. Eph 2:8-9 says we have a free gift of salvation, received by faith, not works. Romans says works demands wages.
So if protestants “hate” Catholicism, it is because of the mixture of Mary in Salvation and by receiving Grace through Sacraments. They consider this a serious matter, an eternal matter. We have a simpler grace, we just have it, and it is wonderful. For yet while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. We do not deserve this grace. So we are jealous and defend that no one shares the imputing of Grace.
The CC does not talk much about Jn ch 3, ye must be born again. That is the life changing event where one surrenders all, verses a confirmation. One can be a new creature, a pig to a sheep. But too many Christians show no difference and look and act like the world.
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guanophore
Guest
Honestly, Zundrah! Sometimes you seem to really delight in inflammatory remarks. :tsktsk:We make statues of our beloved saints. We direct our prayers to IDOLS rather than to the Father Himself.
We are cannibals! …and we are pagan…
LOL
C
CMatt25
Guest
It’s really not so difficult. Here’s how I determine. I listen to Christ.
John 6:47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.
Mattthew 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
41Then he shall say to them also **that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire **which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.
43I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
46And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.
7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
9Blesses are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God.
10Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
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guanophore
Guest
It seems that you believe participation in the sacraments and belonging to a Catholic parish gives you such a “right”. I am not sure there is such a thing. If anythingm I think it might be better called a privilege.
Howver, the fact that you call yourself Catholic does not mean that you reflect Catholic faith. I just read two posts where you commended non-Catholic perspectives.
I am not pursuaded you are “anti-catholic” either, and I don’t think that people who do not hold to the Catholic faith are necessarily “enemies” of the Church either.
I wonder what it is like for you to call yourself Catholic, and have many committed Catholics telling you that your expressions are not consistent with Catholic faith.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Guan, it feels like the “committed Catholics” don’t understand how people become members of the Catholic Church and therefore can call themselves Catholic. And then it feels like they are judging when they presume ignorance and accuse of hate just because someone might not agree with everything. I’m pretty certain though they realize being "committed’ does not mean sin is excluded from their lives either.
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schaick
Guest
The Blue Letter Bible site:
blueletterbible.org/search.cfm
Stephen - Acts 6:8 - full of grace = “plaras karitos”
of grace g5485 χάρις charis
Jesus - John 1:14 - full of grace = “plaras karitos”
of grace g5485 χάρις charis
Mary - Luke 1:28 - favored
favored g5487 χαριτόω charitoō
When Jerome translated the Greek into the Latin Vulgate he paraphrased Luke 1:28 and turned favored into "ave gratia plena "Hail full of grace.
The Blue Letter Bible site doesn’t have Ecclesiasticus does anyone know of a site that does?
Supposedly the same word used in:
Luke 1:28 feminine nominative - κεχαριτωμενη
is the same used in:
Ecclesiasticus 18:17 masculine dative - κεχαριτωμενω
and is translated as justified.
I find it interesting that the Greek argument is used for Mary but when it comes to Peter:
Small stone or rock that can be picked up, Peter = petros and immovable rock = petra.
It is the Aramaic arguement that is used for Kephas, Cephas.
S
schaick
Guest
**Christianity 101 according to the Catholic Church or elvisman?
GOD’s Word does not sufficiently explained the nature of Jesus.**
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T_More
Guest
Thank you. These are certainly things we must do. But you left out things that we are commanded to do that others feel is unnecessasry. Did not Christ tell us if we did not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, we have no life in us? Are we not told that baptism saves us? Did not Christ tell His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit? Why tell them to do this is if it’s not important? Some denominations teach that it isn’t, yet adhere to all the things that you cite above.It’s really not so difficult. Here’s how I determine. I listen to Christ.
John 6:47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.
Mattthew 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
41Then he shall say to them also **that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire **which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.
43I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
46And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.
7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
9Blesses are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God.
10Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
S
schaick
Guest
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
“Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;”-2 Corinthians 1:3
“Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”-I Thessalonians 1:1
“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.”-Romans 13:14
the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
" For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."-John 3:16
“And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”-Hebrews 1:6
“Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.”-Matthew 14:33
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”-Revelation 1:8
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made,
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.”-John 1:1
“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”-I John 1:5
“Then spake Jesus again unto them saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”-John 8:12
“And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.”-John 20:28
" And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."-I John 5:20
" I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my son, today I have begotten you.”-Psalms 2:7
“For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”-Hebrews 1:5
“He who has seen me has seen the Father.”-John 14:9
being of one substance with the Father;
“I and my Father are one.”-John 10:30
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”-Isaiah 44:6
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”-Revelation 1:8
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:” -Philippians 2:6
“But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.” -John 10:38
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” -Colossians 2:9
by whom all things were made.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. …He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. …And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”-John 1:1-3,10,14
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.” -Ephesians 3:9 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”-I Corinthians 8:6
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”-Colossians 1:15-17
Who, for us all for our salvation, came down from heaven,
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”-I Thessalonians 5:9
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”-Acts 4:12
“And that from a child, thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus.”-II Timothy 3:15
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”-John 6:51
“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”-John 6:38
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;
“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”-Matthew 1:18
“To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. …And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”-Luke 1:27,35
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”-Philippians 2:6,7
“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”-Romans 1:3
“Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;”-2 Corinthians 1:3
“Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”-I Thessalonians 1:1
“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.”-Romans 13:14
the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
" For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life."-John 3:16
“And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.”-Hebrews 1:6
“Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.”-Matthew 14:33
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”-Revelation 1:8
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made,
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.”-John 1:1
“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”-I John 1:5
“Then spake Jesus again unto them saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”-John 8:12
“And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.”-John 20:28
" And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."-I John 5:20
" I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my son, today I have begotten you.”-Psalms 2:7
“For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”-Hebrews 1:5
“He who has seen me has seen the Father.”-John 14:9
being of one substance with the Father;
“I and my Father are one.”-John 10:30
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”-Isaiah 44:6
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”-Revelation 1:8
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:” -Philippians 2:6
“But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.” -John 10:38
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” -Colossians 2:9
by whom all things were made.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. …He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. …And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”-John 1:1-3,10,14
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.” -Ephesians 3:9 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”-I Corinthians 8:6
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”-Colossians 1:15-17
Who, for us all for our salvation, came down from heaven,
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”-I Thessalonians 5:9
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”-Acts 4:12
“And that from a child, thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus.”-II Timothy 3:15
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”-John 6:51
“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”-John 6:38
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;
“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”-Matthew 1:18
“To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. …And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”-Luke 1:27,35
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”-Philippians 2:6,7
“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;”-Romans 1:3
S
schaick
Guest
I am not as interested in the number of people, as I am the procedure.
We see in Scripture they [no matter how many] choose 2 then they prayed and cast lots.
The second procedure where it is mentioned that people, laity were involved is from a time a bit later and not mentioned in Scripture but recognized here from this I believe Catholic site and many other places on-line:
newadvent.org/cathen/12270a.htm
the people all took part in it
Interesting thought you bring up - were women and children involved in the selection?
*" A brief historical review will show how the principle of election by the Roman Church has been maintained through all the vicissitudes of papal elections. St. Cyprian tells us in regard to the election of Pope St. Cornelius (251) that the comprovincial bishops, the clergy, and the people all took part in it:
In 769 a council was held under Stephen III to rectify the confusion caused by the intrusion of the antipope Constantine. This usurper was a layman hurriedly raised to priest’s orders to render his nomination to the pontificate possible. To make a repetition of the scandal impossible it was decreed that only members of the sacred college were eligible for election. **The part of the laity was, moreover, reduced to a mere right of acclamation."/**I]
Seems that instead of taking the vote away from the people they would simply correct the nominating procedure.*
C
CMatt25
Guest
A great many baptize. The Catholic Church even accepts many of those baptisms. Whether we are to believe He gave up His flesh and blood or actually literally eat them is one of those things subject to interpretation of “eat” as you know. The CC and others proclaim the latter. Others the former. Either way all believe. What we agree on far outweighs the differences. Let us rejoice in our unity of the ONE most important of all, Christ our Lord.
G
guanophore
Guest
Certainly this is the goal of the evil one. He prowls about, looking for someone to devour. In this case, he struck right at the root. Sin always separates people from God, always the perpetrator, and often the victim as well.
I think you are right on. There are few ways to scatter the sheep more effectively than to to strike at the shepherds.
It is also true that the wound is deeper because to those whom much is given, much will be required. When Catholics fall short of our calling, it has more far reaching damaging effects because we have been given the fullness.
I do think that equating the sins of inidividuals with the Church emanates from a deficient view of the Church.Most people don’t perceive that the Holy, consecrated bride of Christ who is infallible is not to be equated with the sinful men who are attached to her. When we are in grace, we are in perfect communion with the Holy Bride, when we are not, we havde separated ourselves from Her by sin. Since people do not make this distinction, many erroneously blame “the Catholic Church” for the grievious sins of persons claiming to be Catholic who are actually sons of the devil. He who sins becomes the slave of sin,and the slave of sin cannot be the slave of Christ. The two are mutually exclusive. Persons who do such things are no longer “in Christ”. It is no more proper to lay their sins at the feet of the Church that it is to lay the sins of Judas at the feet of the Lord.
G
guanophore
Guest
Actually, the claim does not come from the Church, but was delegated to the Church by Christ. She is not the Source of her own authority, He is. She has an obligation to preserve what was committed to her by God.
Yes, I believe it does. To much is given, much is required. That is why such sins are more grievious when committed by Catholics.
There is no amount of hierarchical authority on earth that can prevent sin. Only the HS can do that in a person, and only when that person has yielded his will to the Holy One. Clearly, these persons did not. Clearly the heirarchy could have responded diffferently, but the expectation that sin can be prevented by authority, even when it is appointed by God, is not realistic. Adam and Eve sinned, and God did not prevent them. Does that mean His authority is not vaild over His creatures?
The rules of the fast are disciplines, not dogmas. What separates us from God is sin. All disobedience is sin. If we disobey the authority appointed by God, we are on the road to hell. You can call it “BS” if you want, but the consequences to you will not change.
G
guanophore
Guest
You may not realize this, but the quality of your relationship with God is not based upon your common sense, judgement, or thoughts. It is based upon His. He gave His authority to the Apostles, and they to their successors. The idea that you are free to disobey the authority appointed by Christ, and ignore His teaching “he who hears you, hears Me” is very spiritually dangerous.
G
guanophore
Guest
Take a deep breath elvisman! The purpose of the non-Catholic forum is to explore differences. If everyone who wanted to post here had to keep their perceptions of BS to themselves, then the forum would not serve it’s purpose!
Clearly this individual, if he ever did embrace the faith, has fallen from it. It is for such as these that CAF exists. If he is here posting, there must be a reason.
- Status