Why does one hate the Catholic Church?

[schaick]

You know very well that is not a Catholic, in communion with Rome, website. Now it’s turning from debate to anti ad hominem statements.

Did you look at the website? It looks very Catholic to me check it out:

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/
Most Holy Family Monastery

*This website is dedicated to defending and spreading the Catholic Faith, as taught and defined by the authoritative teachings of the popes throughout history. It is also dedicated to exposing in great detail the post-Vatican II pseudo-“Church” and the New Mass. These purport to be Catholic, but are not. *

I have heard alot of discussion about the diaster of Vatican II which of course I know nothing about.

 

[schaick]

So your interpretation is the only and one interpretation, infallible and correct over all others?

Nope, I and all agree with the Nicene Creed, Trinity believing Christians basically hold to one interpretation.

Have you ever been to a multi-denominationl Bible study?

You would be amazed at how Trinitarians Christians agree on the interpretation- we simply apply and celebrate that interpretation differently.

 

[schaick]

And your interpretation is correct and infallilble over ALL others? Where is that written in scriptures?

You’ve been on these forums long enough to know some of those traditions, at least I’ve seen you reject a number of them.

No one has ever listed them for me- elviaman is the only one that has even given it a try.

Why is it God inspired it be written, ‘the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth’, instead of scriptures?

Why is it God inspired it be written, ‘the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church’, instead of scriptures?

Why did Jesus teach disputes to be taken to the Church, instead of scriptures?

Why did Jesus see to it that the Church was established first, instead of scriptures? In fact, why didn’t Christ write, or at the very least have scribed, anything if the written word was to take place over the oral teaching?

God plainly inspired the above. What’s lacking is the ‘final authority’ you seem to be preaching on these forums. It’s not inspired, but you have made it so. Isn’t that the same as ‘adding’ to the book?

You have a dispute? You don’t just willy-nilly decide on it, you look to Scripture,what does Scripture says about the issue. You also don’t lay down a general rule that everyone must follow, especilly when it doens’t necessarily have anything to do with your salvation- too often there are reasons there should be exceptions.

It is through the Church that GOD’s Holy Word and WORD was and is to be shown to the World. It is not our various man-made traditions that the Church needs to push on people but The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3
10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[schaick]

I can’t read your mind and no I didn’t know you meant that.

The priest is the only one who MUST receive under both forms. No the laity does not have to receive under both forms. The Laity receive all of Jesus under either form. The command is to Jesus’ priest only.

OK, maybe this is one of those tradtions that the Catholic Church has that I don’t have. But it seems that it is the Catholic Church that is lacking on this one.

Jesus specifically mentiones the 2 forms separately and labels on as HIS Body and the other as HIS Blood.

If for some reason a person can not drink the wine then grape juice is consercrated [just let the Pastor know]-laity is always given or offered both Body and Blood in my Church.

Not is isn’t rather it is a schismatic group who could not accept the Church’s authority and instead have substituted their own. The same thing happened after Vatican I. That group is called the Old Catholics and they to are not in union with the Catholic Church.

OK that is what Prodigal Son1 was telling me.

What is the clue for us non-catholic Christians to look for? Any site that questions any Pope, the Vatican I and II issue?

I have heard my Catholics friends question things- even saying the Pope is not infallible in anything- are these people really Catholic?

I mean do you have to agree with everything? I have heard it said that the majority of Catholics are actually Lutheran, because of the way the don’t believe in much of the things Catholic Popes and higher ups say and do.

I remember my Nana having heard the Pope talk about sex being only for procreation- said, "He doesn’t know what he is talking about".

We were all so surprised because she was a widow at the time and in her 60’s and as a kid you never think of your parents as having sex, let alone your sweet widowed Nana!!

 

[elvisman]

Did you look at the website? It looks very Catholic to me check it out:

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/
Most Holy Family Monastery

*This website is dedicated to defending and spreading the Catholic Faith, as taught and defined by the authoritative teachings of the popes throughout history. It is also dedicated to exposing in great detail the post-Vatican II pseudo-“Church” and the New Mass. These purport to be Catholic, but are not. *

I have heard alot of discussion about the diaster of Vatican II which of course I know nothing about.

This is a renegade would-be Catholic sect - NOT in communion with the Vatican.

I was gonna say, "Nice try" - but it’s not. **

 

[guanophore]

Sorry now I am really confused! Do you mean the Sacred Traditions that only Caholics have are mentioned in GOD’s Word?

The Sacred Traditions are held by all the communities started by the apostles. These include the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and Coptic Christians. You will find that the Apostolic Sacred Traditions have been held as per their commandment by those who have no love lost on Rome.

Yes, of course they are also in scripture. Scripture was never intended to be a full compendium of the faith, and the Sacred Traditions were being practiced and taught for 382 years before the Bible was formed.

On what basis did you think these Teachings of the Apostels should be discontinued just because the Bible was formed?

Then what is the beef why are catholics so against Scripture being the final authority??

Scripture does not have the qualities and characteristics to weild authority. Only persons have this ability. Trying to force Scripture into a role that was never intended only has the result of making the person doing the forcing into their own authority.

My understanding is that the Sacred Traditions Catholics are not in GOD’s Word.

It seems clear from your posts that you have very little understanding of Catholicism, and a great deal of prejudice and bias that probably prevents you from learning.

It is some mysterious tradition that only Catholics have and follow that no one utside the Catholic Church has.

It is true that the Sacred Traditions do function to preserve the mysteries committed to the Church by the Apostles. It is also true that those who have departed from the Church founded by the Apostles have separated themselves from these Teachings. They don’t even realize what they have lost, and many believe the Catholic Church has “added” rather than the Reformers subtracting.

 

[schaick]

You only addressed part of what I asked. To read the Scriptures in context – you must address ALL of what I asked.

---

As for your interpretation of Matt. 16:19 – it is preposterous. This verse directly correlates to Isaiah 22:22 – and not to some obscure allusion to a Jewich court system:
Isaiah 22:22******
“I will place the key of the House of David on his (Eliakim) shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.”

---

God replaces Shebna with Eliakim. The keys to the House of David are given to Eliakim and so is the power to bind and loose – to open and shut. This is the position of Prime Minister or agent (vicar) – just as Peter is given this office of Prime Minister of Jesus or Vicar:

---

Matt. 16:19
“I will give you (Peter) the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Isaiah 22

20 "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.

what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open and he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father-this can only be Jesus

Look at the **message from the one who has the sevenfold Spirit of God **
Revelation 3
7 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Philadelphia.
This is the message from the one who is holy and true,
the one who has the key of David.
What he opens, no one can close;
and what he closes, no one can open:

8 “I know all the things you do, and I have opened a door for you that no one can close. You have little strength, yet you obeyed my word and did not deny me. 9 Look, I will force those who belong to Satan’s synagogue—those liars who say they are Jews but are not—to come and bow down at your feet. They will acknowledge that you are the ones I love.
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown. 12 All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name.
13 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.

Do you think this is actually Peter? *I have opened a door for you that no one can close. *- it is Jesus.

This is one of the biggest mistakes people make when interpreting Scripture-prophecy, thinking it has to do with anyone other then Jesus. It must lead to Jesus and no one else.

The door has been opened by Jesus.

What Jesus gave to Peter and the Disciples the binding and loosing leads back to:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…&postcount=329

 

[schaick]

guanophore:
Please exactly what are these traditions about Jesus that I am missing that deal with one’s salvation?

 

[elvisman]

Isaiah 22

20 "In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.

what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open and he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father-this can only be Jesus

Look at the **message from the one who has the sevenfold Spirit of God **
Revelation 3
7 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Philadelphia.
This is the message from the one who is holy and true,
the one who has the key of David.
What he opens, no one can close;
and what he closes, no one can open:

8 “I know all the things you do, and I have opened a door for you that no one can close. You have little strength, yet you obeyed my word and did not deny me. 9 Look, I will force those who belong to Satan’s synagogue—those liars who say they are Jews but are not—to come and bow down at your feet. They will acknowledge that you are the ones I love.
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown. 12 All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name.
13 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.

Do you think this is actually Peter? *I have opened a door for you that no one can close. *- it is Jesus.

This is one of the biggest mistakes people make when interpreting Scripture-prophecy, thinking it has to do with anyone other then Jesus. It must lead to Jesus and no one else.

The door has been opened by Jesus.

What Jesus gave to Peter and the Disciples the binding and loosing leads back to:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…&postcount=329

Wrong**. **
You apparently didn’t read Matt. 16:19.
Jesus passed that power onto Peter because he CAN. He is God and can do whatever he wants to whomever he wants.

---

It is written that only God can forgive sins, but guess what?
Jesus passed that power onto his Apostles because he is God and he CAN:
Matt. 18:18
“Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

---

John 20:21-23
*(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” ***
***And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. ***
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

---

It is extremely significant that Jesus breathed on the Apostles here because, in ALL of Scripture, God only breathes on man TWO TIMES:
The first is when he breathed LIFE into Adam.

---

The second is when he gave his apostles the power to forgive or retain sins.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Well I can speak for myself because as a Christian Anarchist I’m opposed to any authority over me save God Directly that is I read the Bible, He sends His Holy Spirit to be my teacher and I honor the teachings of Jesus and try to live as He did - as far as my mortal flesh and spirit blessed by God can.

When you see the Vatican and Cathedrals I see a waste of money that could all have gone to aid the poor, when you see your Universities I see making the Word of God out of the hands of the lay person and wonder how you can dare place men between me and God.

I have the same issues with Protestants by the way but your the biggest display of the destruction of the faith by men and their institutions.

Its not I hate you I pity those who are duped into following your faith since its not what Jesus wanted.

 

[Carlan]

Well I can speak for myself because as a Christian Anarchist I’m opposed to any authority over me save God Directly that is I read the Bible, He sends His Holy Spirit to be my teacher and I honor the teachings of Jesus and try to live as He did - as far as my mortal flesh and spirit blessed by God can.

When you see the Vatican and Cathedrals I see a waste of money that could all have gone to aid the poor, when you see your Universities I see making the Word of God out of the hands of the lay person and wonder how you can dare place men between me and God.

I have the same issues with Protestants by the way but your the biggest display of the destruction of the faith by men and their institutions.

Its not I hate you I pity those who are duped into following your faith since its not what Jesus wanted.

Lord help us to follow the light and live the Truth! Carlan

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Did you look at the website? It looks very Catholic to me check it out:

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/
Most Holy Family Monastery

*This website is dedicated to defending and spreading the Catholic Faith, as taught and defined by the authoritative teachings of the popes throughout history. It is also dedicated to exposing in great detail the post-Vatican II pseudo-“Church” and the New Mass. These purport to be Catholic, but are not. *

I have heard alot of discussion about the diaster of Vatican II which of course I know nothing about.

Couldn’t resist another opportunity to post a link to an ‘anti-Catholic’ website, huh?

Not everyone that proclaims themself to be Catholic is actually a Catholic. Catholics are in communion with Rome, or the Vatican if you prefer. You’ve been told this already, but as I said, ‘it’s just another opportunity to post a link to an ‘anti-Catholic’ website and try and cause division’.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No one has ever listed them for me- elviaman is the only one that has even given it a try.

You have a dispute? You don’t just willy-nilly decide on it, you look to Scripture,what does Scripture says about the issue. You also don’t lay down a general rule that everyone must follow, especilly when it doens’t necessarily have anything to do with your salvation- too often there are reasons there should be exceptions.

It is through the Church that GOD’s Holy Word and WORD was and is to be shown to the World. It is not our various man-made traditions that the Church needs to push on people but The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3
10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You are laying down your own rules to Catholics with your posts.

You call them ‘man-made’ traditions, as an ad hominem, evident by your avoidance to answer any questions specifically addressed to you. The Bible being the ‘final authority’ is not in scriptures, therefore it’s a ‘man-made’ tradition. The Bible does not teach everyone to interpret scriptures for themselves, therefore we have another ‘man-made’ tradition.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well I can speak for myself because as a Christian Anarchist I’m opposed to any authority over me save God Directly that is I read the Bible, He sends His Holy Spirit to be my teacher and I honor the teachings of Jesus and try to live as He did - as far as my mortal flesh and spirit blessed by God can.

When you see the Vatican and Cathedrals I see a waste of money that could all have gone to aid the poor, when you see your Universities I see making the Word of God out of the hands of the lay person and wonder how you can dare place men between me and God.

I have the same issues with Protestants by the way but your the biggest display of the destruction of the faith by men and their institutions.

Its not I hate you I pity those who are duped into following your faith since its not what Jesus wanted.

Where’s your contempt of our governement? I mean, they have The Smithsonian Institution, full of treasures?

As for the Holy Spirit teaching you, please explain how the Holy Spirit teaches different ‘truths’ to different people?

 

[CMatt25]

When you see the Vatican and Cathedrals I see a waste of money that could all have gone to aid the poor.

I see the exact same thing. It’s defended by the Church still doing so much work in service to the poor as it is while at the same time honoring the Lord in beautiful places of worship. But obviously it could do even more without the marble and ornate decor and all the trappings.

 

[TedDC]

Did you look at the website? It looks very Catholic to me check it out:

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/
Most Holy Family Monastery

*This website is dedicated to defending and spreading the Catholic Faith, as taught and defined by the authoritative teachings of the popes throughout history. It is also dedicated to exposing in great detail the post-Vatican II pseudo-“Church” and the New Mass. These purport to be Catholic, but are not. *

I have heard alot of discussion about the diaster of Vatican II which of course I know nothing about.

Kooksite, big time. Check out this garbage:
mostholyfamilymonastery.com/eric_efird_hoyle.php

 

[Roy5]

An experience in Colorado

A few years ago I was in a Colorado community for a family reunion. I was intrigued by a sign which suggested that that particular church was the true Catholic Church. When I stopped to investigate, I discovered that the bishop - with whom I had a long conversation -considers the present RC Church heretical because of Vatican II. Among other things, he showed me a photo of Pope John Paul II kissing a Koran. I was in no position to determine whether it was a genuine photo, but I confess that it surprised me.

 Now, talk about hatred of the Catholic Church! That bishop despised the Pope (JPII at the time), hated Vatican II and its reforms, considered the present Papacy illegitmate and heretical, etc. 

 I see things exactly opposite. I am a Christian rather sympathetic to most branches of Christendom (I do have special problems with beliefs of Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc.) I regard Vatican II as an opening to an ecumenical spirit. Before Vatican II I recall how Catholics were forbidden to so much as enter into a Protestant church - and many other such exclusivist rules and regulations. My problem is that Catholicism needs to move further - toward marriage of the clergy, for example, and to less emphasis on Marian veneration, a less dogmatic view when it comes to certain doctrines, a less critical attitude toward Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, etc,

  In the current Our Sunday Visitor an item indicates that Catholicism regards true ecumenism as returning to Rome, the Mother Church. As long as that is the spirit of Catholicism there will be considerable distrust of the RC Church. It's rarely hatred. There is a willingness to honor Catholicism. But the refusal of the Papacy to show full respect for fellow Christians of other affiliations stands as a major stumbling-block toward reconciliation. When Benedict XVI said that Protestant churches were not really churches but 'ecclesial organizations', and that ministers did not have the authority to officiate at communion - well, that's a complete turn-off for non-Catholics.  He made a serious mistake to say this even if he believed it. 

  Fortunately, I have found that very few Catholics feel that way. They want to live with their Protestant friends and neighbors with a mutual respect for the faiths of one another. Sadly, CAF seems to have too few posters like these congenial and tolerant Catholics who do much to bridge the gap that deivides Christians.

 May God bless Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Jews - well, all of his children whatever their faith. May the world travel that path which leads to a deeper understanding of one another, learning from each other's religions, and living in peace and mutual respect.

 

[guanophore]

Why is this Catholic site so upset over the whole thing? It is a Catholic site isn’t it?

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/BenedictXVI_new_limbo_heresy.html

The staggering implications of Benedict XVI’s new blatant heresy on Limbo

Catholics who are in union with the successor of Peter always get upset when others calling themselves Catholic depart from the Teachings of the Apostles maintained by those successors.

The site may be maintained by a person who claims to be Catholic, but that does not make it a “Catholic site”. When a person publishes misinformation as this one has, then one departs from Catholicity.

Since “limbo” has never been anything but a theological speculation, it is impossible for anyone to fall into heresy on account of it. Heresy is the willful and stubborn departure from the Doctrine of the Faith. This notion of “limbo” did not come down from the Apostles, so it does not qualify.

In addition to that error, the writer also misunderstands and misrepresents the document about which he is polemicizing. I hope that he is doing it out of ignorance, rather than the willful attempt to deceive persons such as yourself, who apparently can’t understand very well what they are reading.

 

[Nicea325]

**QUOTE=Libertarian_FL;6445708]Well I can speak for myself because as a Christian Anarchist I’m opposed to any authority over me save God Directly that is I read the Bible, He sends His Holy Spirit to be my teacher and I honor the teachings of Jesus and try to live as He did - as far as my mortal flesh and spirit blessed by God can.

When you see the Vatican and Cathedrals I see a waste of money that could all have gone to aid the poor, when you see your Universities I see making the Word of God out of the hands of the lay person and wonder how you can dare place men between me and God.

I have the same issues with Protestants by the way but your the biggest display of the destruction of the faith by men and their institutions.

Its not I hate you I pity those who are duped into following your faith since its not what Jesus wanted.**

And Jesus certainly did not want 39,000 different sects either. As for the Vatican and the cathedrals? Instead of pointing fingers,how much of your possessions have you given to the poor? It is much easier to be a hypocrite than to actually do it yourself-eh?

 

[fbl9]

And Jesus certainly did not want 39,000 different sects either. As for the Vatican and the cathedrals? Instead of pointing fingers,how much of your possessions have you given to the poor? It is much easier to be a hypocrite than to actually do it yourself-eh?

Actually Jesus wants 5-6 billion sects…according to Lib.