Why does one hate the Catholic Church?

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We have been off topic of the original question for sometime now.

Catholics choose to believe that Jesus is building His Church on Peter.

Whether it is the actual Apostles or the truth they preached about Jesus it is not simply Peter that Jesus’ Church is built on. I understand why the Catholic Church doesn’t-following this thought would not support the primacy of Peter and in turn the Papcy.

Ephesians 2
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Christians choose to believe Jesus is building His Church on Himself as the Rock, or the Truth of who Jesus is the Son of the living GOD.

We will have to agree to disagree.
 
We have been off topic of the original question for sometime now.

Catholics choose to believe that Jesus is building His Church on Peter.

Whether it is the actual Apostles or the truth they preached about Jesus it is not simply Peter that Jesus’ Church is built on. I understand why the Catholic Church doesn’t-following this thought would not support the primacy of Peter and in turn the Papcy.

Ephesians 2
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Christians choose to believe Jesus is building His Church on Himself as the Rock, or the Truth of who Jesus is the Son of the living GOD.

We will have to agree to disagree.
:yup: while still being united in the chief cornerstone Christ Jesus Himself.
 
Code:
Your argument could be taken to mean the Holy Spirit no longer comes to anyone today it was simply for the Disciples.  There are some out there that do believe this.
You are forgetting this verse-

Matthew 28
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Are you not a disciple of Christ?
The HS does not guide disciples today in an opposite direction from where he has led them in the pas.
Do your Preists go to the grade schoools and say to a young man- you are to be a Priest- I appoint you!
No, but more adults should pose this question to young people. Have you ever thought about religious life? What do you think it would be like to be a priest?
Code:
 Yes it was a universal Church for all.  Yes the Disiples, Apostles put GOD's Word in writing- even before it was canonized it was being passed around - not as an entire New Testament but as letters, codices.
And there were some writings that were passed around and read in Church that did not make it into the canon.
Code:
 Then along came the Catholic Church around 300 AD.
Can you please show some evidence of this?

While you are at it, can you explain why Luke described the one church founded by Christ as “catholic”?

Can you explain why the early fathers were calling the Church Catholic since the second century?
Code:
The Catholic Church slowly started closing the gate to the Kingdom of Heaven from all that do not follow their one fallible man until now it is slammed shut.
This is an interesting fantasy. I think I know the origin of it. It comes from the Accuser of the Brethren, and father of lies. It is false, as is the one who spawned it. It is spiritually damaging for you to pander it.
Non-Catholic Christians have asurance through Scripture that we are in fact members of the Church Christ is building, even if the Catholic Church thinks otherwise.
Another false accusation.
So tell me what were the spoken instructions? Do you have proof of what was said?
Yes, we have proof of what was said.

One of the instructions was not to separate the Holy Scriptures from the Sacred Traditions that produced them.
 
I think that many people hate what they don’t understand about the Catholic Church. Many people have been brainwashed with lies about the church for centuries and take these lies as truth. I also think that pride has much to do with it. I think that humility is a lost virtue on many today, and that includes many inside the Catholic Church itself. I don’t think that many people realize how important true humility is, and pride is how sin entered the universe. God’s back is turned towards the proud. “The humble will be exalted and the exalted will be humbled.” If God humbled himself, (think about that for a minute) are we to be any different? How can we expect God to teach us when we won’t humble ourselves? We need to put God as the creator & ourselves as the creature, and then we will be able to understand. Humble yourself and give the ascent of faith to God and His Church, and you will learn the truth. Many people have been taught that the Catholic Church is just some faith based church that came about in the third century, and they are buying into the biggest lie that was ever perpetrated by man. This is THE FAITH, This is THE CHURCH, This is TRADITION with a capital T. This is the Bride of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Many people outside of the church don’t understand the Eucharist, but people following Jesus in Sacred Scripture also didn’t understand this and many of his disciples left him over this very teaching. Many people look at the Saints in the history of the Catholic Church & think that these people were out of their minds. Didn’t people in Sacred Scripture think the same thing about Jesus and many of the prophets as well? Many people don’t understand the teachings about Mary as well. We are called Mary worshipers by many outside of the church and this couldn’t be further from the truth. Eve thought like so many do today, that she could become like God, choosing what is good and evil for herself, and she bit into the big lie. At that very moment, Eve became the mother of all the dead & dying, and then Mary, with Her humble yes, became the mother of all the living. “I will put enmity between your offspring and hers.” Is Jesus called the offspring of David several times in Scripture? Yes. Is He the immediate son of David? No. Are we immediate sons & daughters of Mary? No. Are we her offspring? Yes. I know who I wish to call my mother, and its not Eve. People don’t realize that the whole prayer of the Rosary comes straight out of Scripture, and when were praying the Rosary, were actually praying & meditating on the Gospel. I’m starting to get a bit long winded on this response, but I have much more that I would actually like to add. Get to know the faith. Really get to know & study the Catholic Church, (I’m speaking to many Catholics here as well) and I guarantee that you will be in awe with what you find. God has bestowed a beautiful gift on us all in the Catholic Church, and people should seek & they will find.

www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

www.scripturecatholic.com

www.philthompson.net/pages/library/justinlit.html

www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6SH93arrIE
 
Is freedom a key issue?
Code:
 When people disagree with Catholicism, there is a tendency of some traditional Catholics to use an ad hominum argument in reply. They are likely to charge that those who do not follow Catholic teaching in every detail lack humility, they are not willing to submit themselves to divine authority, they insist on putting their own views and egos above infallible edicts of the Pope, the Magisterium, etc. 

 This argument fails to understand the position of millions of Christians, including many Catholics. They consider it acceptable, even a positive, to use humankind's God-given brains to think, explore, weigh, question, etc. Would God actually punish someone because s/he sincerely doubts? I don't think so. A righteous and merciful Lord - in my view - isn't like an iron-fist dictator who insists that his subjects sacrifice their freedom of thought in favor of uniform thinking. This world is so mammoth and majestic and marvelous and mysterious that honest, thinking people can hardly avoid independent thinking. One reason people are wary about Catholicism is because it appears to want to restrict freedom of thought. 

 Things have improved since Vatican II, but I recall when Catholicism had a lengthy Index of forbidden literature - books Catholics were forbidden to read, often by famous and profound authors. I recall getting the written permission of a priest to have access to 'caged' books at a Catholic university - books on the condemned list. I was writing a thesis on St. Thomas Aquinas at the time and wanted to read criticisms of him to obtain a balanced view. It was difficult to get at those critical sources in a Catholic college. Then, alas, I discovered that Aquinas didn't believe in freedom either. He called upon church authorities to turn heretics over to civil authorities to be executed!   

  There is still a muzzle on dissent. I believe the great Catholic theologian Hans Kung was chastised and quieted by papal decree - I forget the details. Pope John Paul II, as I recall, forbid debate within the church over priestly celibacy and ordination of women. Americans and other democratic peoples have trouble with this. We have become accustomed to individual freedom of opinion and treasure this freedom.

  Can devout Catholics understand that attempts at censorship make many observers, Catholics and others, skeptical of Catholic policies in such matters? Pius IX, in his notorious "Syllabus of Errors", sharply condemned democracy, separation of church and state, freedom religion, etc. Many of our grandparents grew up during this papacy and were influenced by it - for or against Catholic policy.

   I recall visiting Spain during Franco's reign and finding that Protestantism faced severe discrimination there, that Protestants could only worship furtively, without church signs, seminaries, etc. Now, Spain has same-sex marriage! Is this a backlash - the sort that has all but devastated the Catholic Church in Quebec? The church in the town of my grandmother in Quebec, filled with the faithful when she was young, is now up for sale. Has the effort of Catholicism to impose its view on the wider society in past generations led to this in Quebec, Spain and other places? 

 God bless Catholics, Protestants, and people of every religion, color, and nation. Let freedom ring - as Hannity is in the habit of saying.  And let us work to make religion a bridge instead of a barrier among peoples of every faith.
 
Is freedom a key issue?
Code:
 When people disagree with Catholicism, there is a tendency of some traditional Catholics to use an ad hominum argument in reply. They are likely to charge that those who do not follow Catholic teaching in every detail lack humility, they are not willing to submit themselves to divine authority, they insist on putting their own views and egos above infallible edicts of the Pope, the Magisterium, etc. 

 This argument fails to understand the position of millions of Christians, including many Catholics. They consider it acceptable, even a positive, to use humankind's God-given brains to think, explore, weigh, question, etc. Would God actually punish someone because s/he sincerely doubts? I don't think so. A righteous and merciful Lord - in my view - isn't like an iron-fist dictator who insists that his subjects sacrifice their freedom of thought in favor of uniform thinking. This world is so mammoth and majestic and marvelous and mysterious that honest, thinking people can hardly avoid independent thinking. One reason people are wary about Catholicism is because it appears to want to restrict freedom of thought. 

 Things have improved since Vatican II, but I recall when Catholicism had a lengthy Index of forbidden literature - books Catholics were forbidden to read, often by famous and profound authors. I recall getting the written permission of a priest to have access to 'caged' books at a Catholic university - books on the condemned list. I was writing a thesis on St. Thomas Aquinas at the time and wanted to read criticisms of him to obtain a balanced view. It was difficult to get at those critical sources in a Catholic college. Then, alas, I discovered that Aquinas didn't believe in freedom either. He called upon church authorities to turn heretics over to civil authorities to be executed!   

  There is still a muzzle on dissent. I believe the great Catholic theologian Hans Kung was chastised and quieted by papal decree - I forget the details. Pope John Paul II, as I recall, forbid debate within the church over priestly celibacy and ordination of women. Americans and other democratic peoples have trouble with this. We have become accustomed to individual freedom of opinion and treasure this freedom.

  Can devout Catholics understand that attempts at censorship make many observers, Catholics and others, skeptical of Catholic policies in such matters? Pius IX, in his notorious "Syllabus of Errors", sharply condemned democracy, separation of church and state, freedom religion, etc. Many of our grandparents grew up during this papacy and were influenced by it - for or against Catholic policy.

   I recall visiting Spain during Franco's reign and finding that Protestantism faced severe discrimination there, that Protestants could only worship furtively, without church signs, seminaries, etc. Now, Spain has same-sex marriage! Is this a backlash - the sort that has all but devastated the Catholic Church in Quebec? The church in the town of my grandmother in Quebec, filled with the faithful when she was young, is now up for sale. Has the effort of Catholicism to impose its view on the wider society in past generations led to this in Quebec, Spain and other places? 

 God bless Catholics, Protestants, and people of every religion, color, and nation. Let freedom ring - as Hannity is in the habit of saying.  And let us work to make religion a bridge instead of a barrier among peoples of every faith.
When one ‘thinks’, there is nothing wrong with it…as along as they think His will, before their own.

As Peter warned not to be led aside by the error of the unwise, we only wonder how many are following the error of the unwise, when we see thousands of denominations, with different teachings/doctrines, all based on private interpretations. Peter warned, to the extent, that the unlearned and unstable wrest scriptures, to their own destruction. For our care for all people, we speak what has been revealed to us, in hopes that we have not been led aside. Isn’t that what you’re doing?

The differences lie with the authortitative Church established by Christ. I am following, what I believe to be that very Church, 2000 years after it being established. In my opinion, I don’t see that possibility with a Church started much, much later. Because I believe this to be the truth, I feel I will be judged according to the truth revealed to me, as my hope is that others will be judged according to the truth revealed to them.

So, yes, I believe in obedience through submission and then there’s obedient as far as someone is willing to be. We should all be striving to be obedient as He wishes, and not as we wish for ourselves.
 
I think much of the point that I was trying to make in my last post, and much more of what I wish to add, can be best summed up by things that I’ve already said in another thread that I started. I started a thread in the spirituality forum called - All Catholics & Protestants need to understand. I don’t know how to cut & paste things, or I would have done that already. Maybe if someone with more computer skills than myself sees this, they could help me. It would be greatly appreciated.
 
Prodigal Son
Code:
 Fine. You believe that the Catholic church today is the same church that Christ founded. Millions of Catholics believe that, of course. But many other people, including numerous scholars, suggest that the Christianity Christ launched would not have the uniform and elaborate liturgy of today, the hierarchy represented by the Pope (who replaced the Emperor?), the complex theology that evolved over the years, etc. They see Jesus more as the Galilean who would not be confortable in the huge cathedrals that became central in the life of the church once Christianity achieved the status of the official religion of the Roman Empire. They believe that then Christianity absorbed and adapted itself to many of the traditions and beliefs of that Empire, that it lost its 'innocence', if you will, and took on the characteristics of a rich and dominating cultural institution.

  True, there are many Protestant denominations. There are two main steams. One group are the evangelicals, earnest followers of Jesus who judge everything by scripture. There are separate evangelical denominations, like the Southern Baptists and the Church of the Nazarene, but evangelicals also are in such mainstream churches as the Methodists Presbyterians. 

   Mainstream Protestants include millions who are more-or-less 'freethinkers' who encourage individual thinking. In their Bible study groups, for example, you may get a dozen different interpretations of any one verse, and no one is accused of heresy. There is considerable freedom of thought and it is treasured. Frankly, millions of Catholics  - more and more of them - are in the same mode of thinking. Catholic relatives and friends are sharply divided on this - yes, there is considerable division among Catholics - but probably the majority are permissive when it comes to doctrine. Many, when pushed, have serious doubts themselves about transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception or the infallibility of the Pope in faith and morals, but they attend mass faithfully.

  There is a basic split among Christians in this country. Millions of Catholics and Protestants are 'fundamentalists' in that they think there is only one correct faith, which is theirs. Other millions of Catholics and Protestants are open to friendly dialogue on such matters. They are skeptical of doctrinal dogmatism because they feel that the world has many mysteries not well explained by any church.  

  For myself, I think that religion should be a bridge and not a barrier. All who worship God should be united in giving respect to different understandings of that God. None of us knows very much about this vast and mysterious world, where the earth is just a speck in a huge universe of perhaps a billion stars! It seems presumptuous that we claim to know the secrets of this magnificent creation. We are called upon to live by simple faith. What does the Bible say? For we walk by faith, not by sight. Now we see through a glass darkly... now we know in part.

  God bless all the children of God, which includes everybody.
 
Prodigal Son
Code:
 Fine. You believe that the Catholic church today is the same church that Christ founded. Millions of Catholics believe that, of course. But many other people, including numerous scholars, suggest that the Christianity Christ launched would not have the uniform and elaborate liturgy of today, the hierarchy represented by the Pope (who replaced the Emperor?), the complex theology that evolved over the years, etc. They see Jesus more as the Galilean who would not be confortable in the huge cathedrals that became central in the life of the church once Christianity achieved the status of the official religion of the Roman Empire. They believe that then Christianity absorbed and adapted itself to many of the traditions and beliefs of that Empire, that it lost its 'innocence', if you will, and took on the characteristics of a rich and dominating cultural institution.

  True, there are many Protestant denominations. There are two main steams. One group are the evangelicals, earnest followers of Jesus who judge everything by scripture. There are separate evangelical denominations, like the Southern Baptists and the Church of the Nazarene, but evangelicals also are in such mainstream churches as the Methodists Presbyterians. 

   Mainstream Protestants include millions who are more-or-less 'freethinkers' who encourage individual thinking. In their Bible study groups, for example, you may get a dozen different interpretations of any one verse, and no one is accused of heresy. There is considerable freedom of thought and it is treasured. Frankly, millions of Catholics  - more and more of them - are in the same mode of thinking. Catholic relatives and friends are sharply divided on this - yes, there is considerable division among Catholics - but probably the majority are permissive when it comes to doctrine. Many, when pushed, have serious doubts themselves about transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception or the infallibility of the Pope in faith and morals, but they attend mass faithfully.

  There is a basic split among Christians in this country. Millions of Catholics and Protestants are 'fundamentalists' in that they think there is only one correct faith, which is theirs. Other millions of Catholics and Protestants are open to friendly dialogue on such matters. They are skeptical of doctrinal dogmatism because they feel that the world has many mysteries not well explained by any church.  

  For myself, I think that religion should be a bridge and not a barrier. All who worship God should be united in giving respect to different understandings of that God. None of us knows very much about this vast and mysterious world, where the earth is just a speck in a huge universe of perhaps a billion stars! It seems presumptuous that we claim to know the secrets of this magnificent creation. We are called upon to live by simple faith. What does the Bible say? For we walk by faith, not by sight. Now we see through a glass darkly... now we know in part.

  God bless all the children of God, which includes everybody.
Jesus was raised a Jew, who taught in the Temple and synagogues. Can you imagine how uniform and elaborate that was during those times?

Just as Jesus chose Caesarea Philippi as the place to announce His Church, it’s just a fitting that His Church is centered from Rome, who persecuted Christians, under the penalty of death.

Caesarea Philippi was so named by Herod Philip in honor of the ruling Caesar at the time. Originally it was Panion, the city of the great pagan god, Pan, whose essence was depravity and sexual in nature. Pan represented pure evil to the Christians then. Pan was also the god of shepherds and flock. There is still an altar to Pan in the cliffs of Caesarea Philippi, a place with a cavern hidden in a niche of the mountain, believed at the time to be the gates of the abyss. Christ chose a place that kept men from the kingdom of heaven, and made His Church that brings people to the kingdom of heaven.

This was not a chance place, or event, it was according to His will.

It’s the ‘free thinkers’ who believe Christ wouldn’t approve of the uniform and elaborate services. Those uniformed and elaborate services are based on what Christ did. The liturgy of the word and the breaking of the bread, revealing Himself to those on the road to Emmaus. The Mass itself is described in Revelations, but it cannot be properly explained in a single thread.

Divisions of Catholics, like the divisions of Protestants, doesn’t make it right. Christ built one Church. Scriptures tells us to be of the same mind and judgement, of the same accord, and to take note of those causing dissensions and division. Of course those very scriptures were written correcting the divisions then, imagine how far the divides are now.

The Catholic Church seeks unity with other Churches, but how many Protestant denominations are truly seeking anytype of unification?

Mysteries not explained by the Church? Explain the mysteries of God, the Trinity for instance. I don’t think anyone can fully understand His mysteries in a lifetime on this earth. Look how many times He had to explain things to the Apostles, and then they didn’t fully understand. Christ knew what He was leaving His truth in the hands of, and He taught the people to obey the authority over God’s truth.

Show me in scriptures, one faith with many ‘applications’. It’s just not there.
 
Prodigal Son
Code:
 Fine. You believe that the Catholic church today is the same church that Christ founded. Millions of Catholics believe that, of course. But many other people, including numerous scholars, suggest that the Christianity Christ launched would not have the uniform and elaborate liturgy of today, the hierarchy represented by the Pope (who replaced the Emperor?), the complex theology that evolved over the years, etc. They see Jesus more as the Galilean who would not be confortable in the huge cathedrals that became central in the life of the church once Christianity achieved the status of the official religion of the Roman Empire. They believe that then Christianity absorbed and adapted itself to many of the traditions and beliefs of that Empire, that it lost its 'innocence', if you will, and took on the characteristics of a rich and dominating cultural institution.

  True, there are many Protestant denominations. There are two main steams. One group are the evangelicals, earnest followers of Jesus who judge everything by scripture. There are separate evangelical denominations, like the Southern Baptists and the Church of the Nazarene, but evangelicals also are in such mainstream churches as the Methodists Presbyterians. 

   Mainstream Protestants include millions who are more-or-less 'freethinkers' who encourage individual thinking. In their Bible study groups, for example, you may get a dozen different interpretations of any one verse, and no one is accused of heresy. There is considerable freedom of thought and it is treasured. Frankly, millions of Catholics  - more and more of them - are in the same mode of thinking. Catholic relatives and friends are sharply divided on this - yes, there is considerable division among Catholics - but probably the majority are permissive when it comes to doctrine. Many, when pushed, have serious doubts themselves about transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception or the infallibility of the Pope in faith and morals, but they attend mass faithfully.

  There is a basic split among Christians in this country. Millions of Catholics and Protestants are 'fundamentalists' in that they think there is only one correct faith, which is theirs. Other millions of Catholics and Protestants are open to friendly dialogue on such matters. They are skeptical of doctrinal dogmatism because they feel that the world has many mysteries not well explained by any church.  

  For myself, I think that religion should be a bridge and not a barrier. All who worship God should be united in giving respect to different understandings of that God. None of us knows very much about this vast and mysterious world, where the earth is just a speck in a huge universe of perhaps a billion stars! It seems presumptuous that we claim to know the secrets of this magnificent creation. We are called upon to live by simple faith. What does the Bible say? For we walk by faith, not by sight. Now we see through a glass darkly... now we know in part.

  God bless all the children of God, which includes everybody.
I wanted to hit on a couple of things that you said in here, and I hope that you take them to heart and don’t just get mad and rant. First of all, I noticed that you call yourself a Christian. I think that is so strange that the original word comes from the apostles, who handed down their teachings to the Catholic Church, but everyone who isn’t Catholic, goes around calling themselves Christian. I think that we can always learn much from the past. I have a Websters Dictionary from 1950, and here is their definition of a Protestant. Protestant - Any Christians not of the Roman Catholic Church or of the Eastern Church. I would only question one thing here. If your not a Catholic, does the name Christian actually apply to you? God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Three but they are one. Majesterium, Sacred Scripture, Church teaching, Three but they are one. I noticed how you also mentioned everyones opinion on Scripture being heard and free thinkers are encouraged and thats good, but do you realize how many free thinkers there are running around today, with what they believe is the truth? There are between 40 - 60,000 different denominations worldwide that are calling themselves Christians, all with varying ideas of what Sacred Scripture means. 40- 60,000 is just the denominations, that doesn’t count the hundreds to thousands of people inside of each one of these denominations. “Satan wishes to sift you like wheat, but Peter, I pray for you in unity.” sift you like wheat indeed. I would like to end this post with a website I found that has letters from a man named Justin Martyr that explain the transubstantiation of the Eucharist and explains how us Catholics celebrate Mass. These letters are from 150 AD, dispelling the biggest lie ever told by man, that the church just kind of came around in the 3rd century. I would also like to post another website that shows documented Eucharistic miracles. P.S. Can anyone outside of the Catholic Church explain the incorruptible bodies of many of the Saints? Can you please also explain to me why these Eucharistic miracles, incorruptible bodies, etc, are unique only to the Catholic Church itself?

www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

www.philthompson.net/pages/library/justinlit.html

www.scripturecatholic.com

www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6SH93arrIE
 
Okay. I really shouldn’t carry on this dialogue, but I find it stimulating, and I have few people nearby who engage in such dialogue. Besides, my family and friends include Catholics and Protestants and it seems wisest to avoid religious conversation if we want to keep on good terms with some of them - the ones who feel quite positive that they alone embrace the correct version of Christianity.
Code:
 To begin with, it seems to me that Jesus was quite opposed to traditional Judaism, clearly one reason the crowds shouted 'Crucify him!" Like when he said that "the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath'. The ecclesiastical establishment wasn't at all happy with such a defiant attitude.  When I attend Mass I often am unimpressed. Things can seem so rote. This depends a lot upon the priest, frankly. So often it's just a liturgy unless the homily is lively, which often it is not. Frequently it sounds like the priest got his 3-minute message out of something pre-packaged. As you can see by now, I am torn when it comes to religious allegiance, though I don't really think church affiliation is all that important. The important thing was defined by Jesus - love God, love one another. That's how he answered the man who wanted to know how to inherit eternal life. Instead of going into doctrine to illustrate his point, he told the beautiful parable of the Good Samaritan, in which the hero was a 'heretic'. The Samaritans had interrmarried and followed a different faith.

   Protestants in general have sought a spirit of unity. They established, along with the Eastern Orthodox, the World Council of Churches - and in the USA the National Council of Churches. There is considerable mutual respect among mainline Protestants. For many, many decades they had local ministerial councils, etc. - plus Church Women United. After Vatican II many priests and laity joined such local groups. That was a wonderful break-through. I love John XXIII. 

   What most mainline Protestants I know treasure especially (and what attracts me) may be summed up in the word 'freedom'. Perhaps influenced by democracy, they see nothing wrong with people disagreeing with one another on doctrinal matters. I, as an example, would never become a Quaker, but how I admire them! I even admire the Amish though I am not about to give up my car or TV. In other words, we can have mutual respect and healthy dialogue and not necessarily believe the same things. That's the attitude I find among many Protestants - and, by the way, increasingly among Catholics. It may be a rebellion against authoritarianism. I know that some of my relatives, ex-Catholics, like the slack their Protestant faith provides them when it comes to doctrine. They can chat about Mary, for example, and hold different opinions on, say, the Virgin Birth or her perpetual virginity or other children without rancor. They agree that 'proper doctrine' is not the key to eternal life. It's, as Jesus said, love of God and one another. 

 Yes, there are many Protestant denominations. Remember, of course, that there may be, for example, 150-200 or more Methodist denominations because in every country Methodism is - what is that word? - independent, autonomous. not under the control of any other Methodist unit in any other country. Still, there is a World Methodist Council which brings Methodists together every few years. Protestantism is complex, little understood by most Catholics - and Protestants, too.  In places like Canada the Methodists, Congregationalists, and Presbyterians merged into the United Church of Canada. Etc., etc. It would take a book to explain all this. Then there are groups that people assume are Protestant, but they are not. Mormons, for example. Mormons are about as Protestant as Muslims would be - a different prophet, different scriptures, and much more. Mormonism actually is organized more like Catholicism, with Salt Lake City its Rome and its president as its Pope. Yes, he has received revelations, too! Jehovah Witnesses would not properly be listed as Protestants, either. The main Protestant families are Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed (they include Presbyterians and United Church of Christ), Methodist, Pentecostalists, and 'radicals' - like Quakers. There are a host of smaller evangelical groups that may not fit into these larger families. 

  As for miracles, wow - do you know about the Pentecostalists, probably the fastest growing group of Christians in the world today, making huge headway in places like Brazil and Nigeria? They claim thousands of healings daily and all sorts of other miracles. I doubt these claims. I also doubt that St. Padre Pio was able to levitate and bilocate. Sorry.

  I like the theme of John Wesley - 'think and let think'. He also said in effect: 'if your heart is right, if you love God as I love God, let us join hands and walk together'. I don't believe that doctrinal or liturgical lock-step uniformity is necessary in order to achieve a spirit of unity among Christians. I pray for the day when religion (of all kinds) will serve as a bridge rather than as a barrier. The present situation must make Christ weep. I suspect that he thinks: these are all my children, my brothers and sisters; why don't they accept their differences and move on in the spirit of reconciliation?

 Lots more to say, but even this is too long. I worship at a variety of churches, acting out my view that we all are one in Christ.

 God bless faithful people of every religion, color, and nation. We live in a vast and magnificent world, and for any of us to claim to understand it is to pretend to know what is beyond out finite minds. But that's okay. God is in charge and we can relax and put our trust in his divine, merciful and providential will.
 
You believe that the Catholic church today is the same church that Christ founded. Millions of Catholics believe that, of course. But many other people, including numerous scholars, suggest that the Christianity Christ launched would not have the uniform and elaborate liturgy of today, the hierarchy represented by the Pope (who replaced the Emperor?), the complex theology that evolved over the years, etc. They see Jesus more as the Galilean who would not be confortable in the huge cathedrals that became central in the life of the church once Christianity achieved the status of the official religion of the Roman Empire. They believe that then Christianity absorbed and adapted itself to many of the traditions and beliefs of that Empire, that it lost its ‘innocence’, if you will, and took on the characteristics of a rich and dominating cultural institution.
I went to Mass yesterday and one of the readings was in Revelations, and it made me think of your statement above. I’d suggest anyone that thinks that Christ would be ‘uncomfortable’ in the uniform and elaborate liturgy in the huge cathedrals read Revelations and see the uniform and elaborate taking place in the heavenly kingdom.
 
I don’t really care for arguing back & forth for the arguments sake, so I just wanted to go back on point about this threads original question. My sister married into a Baptist family and when I was much younger, I used to loathe when the two sides of the family would get together. The Baptist were always making fun out of our religious beliefs and many times, would say some very hurtful, hate filled & ignorant things. I learned much about my Mothers faith at the time, but never really even noticed it until much later in my life. The Baptists used to preach down at my mother & were constantly telling her that her faith was all wrong, and at the same time, they were trying to evangelize my mother into their church. My mother would never respond with hatred & many times would not say anything at all. She would just smile and politely decline their invitation. I don’t think that its just a coincidence that my mother passed away on Good Friday in 2001. I also don’t think that its any small coincidence that many non Catholics come onto a Catholic website to argue. Maybe they are seeking the truth & don’t even know it. Many Catholic conversions have come from people who truly hated Catholicism at one point. I also had a friend who became Catholic, who was raised Protestant. He used to always notice that at Protestant services, they were many times, giving hate filled speeches about the Catholic Church for their sermons. He then came to a Catholic Mass and saw that our whole Mass revolves around the Eucharist, Jesus and Sacred Scripture and He became Catholic at that point. Does anyone ever see another church in history being condemned by the secular world, as much as they do the Catholic Church? Think about it. Many in the secular world tell us that homosexuality is okay, pornography is okay, etc. We have board certified doctors telling us that masturbation is good for us, etc. Really? If the secular world hates and vilifies the Catholic Church and tries its best to undermine and destroy it, you can be assured that it is from God.
 
I’m from a Catholic family, but I am now an agnostic. I have nothing against individual ordinary Catholics. One, I just don’t believe in any of the doctrines. I don’t believe confession to a priest makes a difference, since I was told when you die and you go to Heaven, if you are sorry for your sins, you will be absolved there. Just the inconsistency in some parts. I don’t believe that eating or abstaining from certain things makes a difference to God (even though I’m a vegetarian, its more of the principle). I don’t believe in transubstantiation. I don’t believe that a loving God would send one of His children that he created to Hell. I wouldn’t wish that fate on my worst enemy (considering I was raped and abused, I do have a good claim). I also don’t believe in the Old Testament. Why would we glorify the slaughter of non-Jews who did nothing to them? And I believe in evolution, not creation. But I have nothing against anyone who does believe. No, it’s more of the institution that I have a problem with. I have a problem with the fact that certain officials care more about reputation that protecting church members. I have a problem when people put down another religion because of how they treat women, children, etc. but then they turn around and do it themselves. I realize this isn’t everyone in the Catholic Church, but there were enough of those in my life and Church to make me want to leave for good.
 
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    To begin with, it seems to me that Jesus was quite opposed to traditional Judaism,
If this was true, why did He invent it in the first place?

Why did He practice it?

On the contrary, what he opposed was the DEPARTURE from the Sacred Tradition.
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  clearly one reason the crowds shouted 'Crucify him!" Like when he said that "the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath'. The ecclesiastical establishment wasn't at all happy with such a defiant attitude.
But that is the Traditional position. When God created the Sabbath, He did so for the benefit of mankind. The Pharisees had drifted apart from this.
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 When I attend Mass I often am unimpressed. Things can seem so rote.
This says a lot more about the state of your soul than it does about the Mass. What is it about standing at the foot of the cross that you would expect to find “impressive”?

Yesterday I read a speculative question about what the Pope might feel about talking to you. After reading this, it seems clear that you are a product of our culture, and separated from the mysteries of God.
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  This depends a lot upon the priest, frankly. So often it's just a liturgy unless the homily is lively, which often it is not. Frequently it sounds like the priest got his 3-minute message out of something pre-packaged. As you can see by now, I am torn when it comes to religious allegiance, though I don't really think church affiliation is all that important.
It seems clear that you are preferring to participate in an ecclesial community that is more entertaining. Do you have one of those Mega churches nearby?
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  The important thing was defined by Jesus - love God, love one another.
It seems like this would be pretty difficult if you are bored by His sacrifice of blood to purchase your eternal salvation. It also might be hard to be loving if you don’t find other people sufficiently entertaining. Just speculating.
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  Protestants in general have sought a spirit of unity. They established, along with the Eastern Orthodox, the World Council of Churches - and in the USA the National Council of Churches. There is considerable mutual respect among mainline Protestants. For many, many decades they had local ministerial councils, etc. - plus Church Women United. After Vatican II many priests and laity joined such local groups. That was a wonderful break-through. I love John XXIII.
Among all those who look forward to His appearing, the desire for unity is present.
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    What most mainline Protestants I know treasure especially (and what attracts me) may be summed up in the word 'freedom'. Perhaps influenced by democracy, they see nothing wrong with people disagreeing with one another on doctrinal matters.
Yes. I think this is an accurate observation. The United States is founded upon such principles. However, Jesus left no room for “disagreement” on doctrinal matters. It is not a democracy.
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  I, as an example, would never become a Quaker, but how I admire them! I even admire the Amish though I am not about to give up my car or TV. In other words, we can have mutual respect and healthy dialogue and not necessarily believe the same things. That's the attitude I find among many Protestants - and, by the way, increasingly among Catholics.
Seems like Quakers don’t go in for much entertainment value either…
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  It may be a rebellion against authoritarianism. I know that some of my relatives, ex-Catholics, like the slack their Protestant faith provides them when it comes to doctrine.
There is a big difference between authority, and authoritarianism. One is not necessarily reacting to an abuse of power when they reject doctrine. The “slack provided” encourages sin, and people like sin. It is in our nature. That is why He said “wide and easy is the road that leads to perdition.”
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 They can chat about Mary, for example, and hold different opinions on, say, the Virgin Birth or her perpetual virginity or other children without rancor.
Rancor is not a necessary element of heresy.
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 They agree that 'proper doctrine' is not the key to eternal life. It's, as Jesus said, love of God and one another.
The two are not separated. If one does not have the right doctrine, then one will not be able to know what it means to love God, and love one’s neighbor.
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  There are a host of smaller evangelical groups that may not fit into these larger families.
They all share one thing in common - they have all departed, from a greater or lesser degree, from the faith that was handed down to us by the Apostles.
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    I doubt these claims. I also doubt that St. Padre Pio was able to levitate and bilocate. Sorry.
I agreet that it is a sorry thing to have lost faith in God’s ability to intervene supernaturally in human affairs. It seems like it makes a very sterile faith, or what is left of the faith.
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 . I don't believe that doctrinal or liturgical lock-step uniformity is necessary in order to achieve a spirit of unity among Christians. I pray for the day when religion (of all kinds) will serve as a bridge rather than as a barrier.
Relativism rules?
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  The present situation must make Christ weep.
I am sure it does. I am weeping just reading your post!
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 I worship...  acting out my view ....
I think this basically sums it up, doesn’t it? .
 
The OP asked “Why does one hate the Catholic Church?” Some have mentioned that most non-Catholics don’t hate the CC. Perhaps the thread should have been about misconceptions regarding the CC. Since the focus of most comments have strayed so far away from the OP then contemplating an alternative is quite appropriate, in my opinion.

What has been construed as hatred from all sides has been a passion for ones beliefs and an enthusiasm for defending their faith. I have stated before that I am a cradle Catholic, poorly Catechized and struggling to catch up with my faith. I am making great progress. Most of my extended family, aunts, uncles, cousins, and siblings don’t practice any sort of religion and even my own brother is an aetheist. In the midst of Church scandals and public outcry for justice, I have yet to question the authority of the CC. I struggle to conform to everything but I don’t question that it is what is right.

So, how can I have the background I mention and struggle with obediance yet never question the authority of the CC? I read the Holy Bible and read about Church history. I am not an ignorant person by any means yet as I contemplate every arguement and accusation about the CC, I never waiver. It would be so easy to move to another faith or one of the denominations of Christianity where the guidlines have been blurred and allow so much latitude that I could, without any doubt, find a Church that fit my needs. Yet I do not. I open my heart and read with as much logic as I am capable. At every turn I find that my answers lay within the CC, the one Church that holds all the knowable truths given to us by our Lord and Savior and handed down directly by oral and written traditions by the Apostles and their successors down to this very day. The history speaks for itself. My theology is defined by that history and Sacred Scripture and the truth it holds.

Many of those adding to this thread make very appealing arguments. I disregard most of them simply because I have already found them to be either false or misguided. Some are compelling enough for me to study and learn about them. Most of the messages that come with a spirit of love and understanding end with exactly that, but without truth they are incomplete. It is indeed possible to be loving and kind but be wrong in every other way. I recently thought about a simple question when someone mentioned that the CC is not a democracy. Did Jesus ask, at any point, for the opinions of the Apostles? From my reading He does not ask them questions without the purpose of teaching them a lesson or eliciting a specific response. Jesus taught the Apostles and then sent them to carry his words. I cannot find anything that allows me to stray from that.

The question is now whether your faith is in humans or Christ and His Church. Which is it? For me and all faithful Catholics, faith is in Christ and His Church. He purposely left us leadership to defend the faith and guide us, however, that leadership is human with human faults. Christ Himself chose Judas yet we have faith in the infalilble Word of God. Our faith is in the Church Christ established and the consistent teachings handed down via Apostolic succession. The “proof is in the pudding” as they say. Look at the core teachings of the Church as they relate to Scripture. Have any of them changed? Whether they have been propogated correctly or not isn’t a question for me. The question is where to find the truth, I have found it in the CC. Through scandal, heresy, and persecution the faithful have grown and strengthened and emerged purified. This time in history will be no different, He will be with us always.

People of all faiths have the capacity to be good, just, kind, loving, etc, but there can be only one truth regardless of any linguistic gymnastics or context you use. I thank God everyday that we as humans do not possess the ability or responsibility to judge eachother or ourselves. May God find all in communion with His Word and may His blessings be upon us all.
 
Prodigal Son
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 Fine. You believe that the Catholic church today is the same church that Christ founded. Millions of Catholics believe that, of course. But many other people, including numerous scholars, suggest that the Christianity Christ launched would not have the uniform and elaborate liturgy of today, the hierarchy represented by the Pope (who replaced the Emperor?), the complex theology that evolved over the years, etc. They see Jesus more as the Galilean who would not be confortable in the huge cathedrals that became central in the life of the church once Christianity achieved the status of the official religion of the Roman Empire. They believe that then Christianity absorbed and adapted itself to many of the traditions and beliefs of that Empire, that it lost its 'innocence', if you will, and took on the characteristics of a rich and dominating cultural institution.

  True, there are many Protestant denominations. There are two main steams. One group are the evangelicals, earnest followers of Jesus who judge everything by scripture. There are separate evangelical denominations, like the Southern Baptists and the Church of the Nazarene, but evangelicals also are in such mainstream churches as the Methodists Presbyterians. 

   Mainstream Protestants include millions who are more-or-less 'freethinkers' who encourage individual thinking. In their Bible study groups, for example, you may get a dozen different interpretations of any one verse, and no one is accused of heresy. There is considerable freedom of thought and it is treasured. Frankly, millions of Catholics  - more and more of them - are in the same mode of thinking. Catholic relatives and friends are sharply divided on this - yes, there is considerable division among Catholics - but probably the majority are permissive when it comes to doctrine. Many, when pushed, have serious doubts themselves about transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception or the infallibility of the Pope in faith and morals, but they attend mass faithfully.

  There is a basic split among Christians in this country. Millions of Catholics and Protestants are 'fundamentalists' in that they think there is only one correct faith, which is theirs. Other millions of Catholics and Protestants are open to friendly dialogue on such matters. They are skeptical of doctrinal dogmatism because they feel that the world has many mysteries not well explained by any church.  

  For myself, I think that religion should be a bridge and not a barrier. All who worship God should be united in giving respect to different understandings of that God. None of us knows very much about this vast and mysterious world, where the earth is just a speck in a huge universe of perhaps a billion stars! It seems presumptuous that we claim to know the secrets of this magnificent creation. We are called upon to live by simple faith. What does the Bible say? For we walk by faith, not by sight. Now we see through a glass darkly... now we know in part.

  God bless all the children of God, which includes everybody.
:clapping: Absolutely one of the most beautiful posts I have ever read on these forums. God bless you.
 
Jesus was raised a Jew, who taught in the Temple and synagogues. Can you imagine how uniform and elaborate that was during those times?

It’s the ‘free thinkers’ who believe Christ wouldn’t approve of the uniform and elaborate services.
The Catholic Church seeks unity with other Churches, but how many Protestant denominations are truly seeking anytype of unification?

.
Of course on the otherhand Jesus did start a new religion. And check out Acts to see how those early "free thinkers’ had an accord in the temple but then continued their worship simply in homes which is where they broke the bread. A lot of Protestants have shown interest in unity. But it’s kind of difficult when the Catholic Church is so certain it and it only has all infallible truth and it’s idea of seeking unity then is by only expecting everyone else to come entirely their way. It takes 2 to tango. If one party is willing to dance and the other is immovable, it’s a bit difficult to get done.
 
I worship at a variety of churches, acting out my view that we all are one in Christ.
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 God bless faithful people of every religion, color, and nation. We live in a vast and magnificent world, and for any of us to claim to understand it is to pretend to know what is beyond out finite minds. But that's okay. God is in charge and we can relax and put our trust in his divine, merciful and providential will.
:amen:

Ephesians 2:14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh.

1Cor 12:5And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord;

6And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ.

14For the body also is not one member, but many.
 
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