Why does Orthodoxy need the Pope?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Paul_theApostle
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think for many purposes, Orthodox have to say the document is suspicious because of its explicit agreement with what Rome claims about herself. However many historical documents we have today are reliable even without the original (cough cough, the Gospels) yet they are fully trusted.

It would make logical sense that if the document were a forgery, there would have been at least one condemnation of it existing today from the time as it was circulated around the Church after his death. Yet there is silence as if there is approval and no contention as to the content of the Letter to Peter.

Secondly in Maxmus’s interrogation by Eastern prelates, we see his opinion towards Rome consistent with what is in his letter to Peter. This even irritates the prelates to a point where they ask him :
**Why do you love the Romans and hate the Greeks?''** The servant of God said: We are commanded to hate no man. I love the Romans because they have one faith
with me, and the Greeks because they speak the same tongue as I.’’
Continued…
 
With regard to Pope Honorius, Maximus defends and proves that Honorius was not a heretic :
Pyrrhus: What dost thou say of Honorius, who
clearly taught one will of Our Lord Jesus Christ in
his letter to my predecessor ?
Maximus: Who is a more trustworthy interpreter of
such an epistle? The one that actually wrote it for
Honorius, the one who at the time was still alive,
and who, in addition to all his other virtues,
illumined the whole West with godly dogmas? Or
is it those in Constantinople who interpret it in
accordance with the whim of their own hearts?
P: The one who actually composed the letter.
M: This same person afterwards wrote for Pope
John (who is among the saints) to Constantine,
just after he had become Emperor regarding the
very same letter of Honorius. He explained that:
“We say one will of the Lord, not of the
Godhead and humanity, but only of the
humanity. For Sergius hath written: ‘As some
say that the two wills of Christ are opposed,
we in response write that Christ did not have
two opposing wills, as of flesh and of spirit,
as we ourselves have since the Fall , but one
only, that which characterized His humanity
by virtue of nature.’”
And the clear proof of this is the fact that he
writeth of limbs and flesh *, which means that we cannot apply
what he saith unto the Godhead. Straight away, in
anticipation of objections, he saith:
“And if someone saith ‘Why, when speaking
of the humanity of Christ, did you not refer to
the Godhead as well?’ we reply, for the first
part, that our answer was made to a specific
question; and for the second part, that there,
as ever, we have followed the practice of
Scripture . For sometimes it speaketh
concerning His Godhead only, as when the
apostle saith ‘Christ the power of God and
wisdom of God’, and sometimes concerning
only His humanity, as when the apostle
saith ‘the foolishness of God is stronger than
men’, and what is weak in God is stronger
than men.”*
Pyrrhus: My predecessor, misled by the pope’s
manner of writing, understood it in a somewhat
naive fashion .
 
This is why its a difficult process with the Saints. For example St Cyprian on Unity of the Church. We can see Cyprian re-word his own works to accommodate a later view when Baptism and his view on heretics came at odds with Rome. Certainly we can’t pick one form and deem it correct. Its a matter of viewing the whole in relation to Church. Same with Augustine and many others. The Saints also are viewed in less than their intended light this way.
 
I think for many purposes, Orthodox have to say the document is suspicious because of its explicit agreement with what Rome claims about herself. However many historical documents we have today are reliable even without the original (cough cough, the Gospels) yet they are fully trusted.
Apples to Oranges. The Gospels are trusted because the Church determined through their catholicity and orthodoxy (that is, through their agreement with the orthodox doctrine of Christ, and their use in many places throughout the Church) that they are trustworthy. The Gospels are not trustworthy based upon who the writer claims to be (for there exist many heretical gospels which claim to have been written by an apostle) or based upon whether an original document exists.

The supposed Letter of Maximus to Peter, however underwent no such process, as it is neither catholic as having been preserved and read as a source of doctrine in many churches of God, nor has it ever been approved by synods as orthodox in its faith. And you are incorrect to say that we say it is suspicious because it resembles what Rome says about herself. We are suspicious because the document does not exist in the language in which St. Maximus the Confessor wrote, Greek, and because the document makes suspiciously anachronistic claims about the Roman Church, claims which would not be made for several centuries after the Confessor’s Death. Furthermore, as I pointed out, it makes an elementary error in claiming that the canons granted Rome a supreme and universal Jurisdiction, something which no canon from the first millennium does (a mistake that I am not inclined to think that St. Maximus the Confessor would make, but which many Latin canonists of the Second Millennium would make). Furthermore, we know that there are already several famous forgeries which were historically used to bolster papal supremacy, the Donation of Constantine and the False Decretals of Pseudo-Isidore being a large collection of such forgeries and interpolations. Why then should we give this document the benefit of the doubt when it does not exist in the language in which St. Maximus wrote, when it makes anachronistic claims about the see of Rome, and on account of the prevalence of forged and interpolated documents from this time period which bolster papal claims to power?
It would make logical sense that if the document were a forgery, there would have been at least one condemnation of it existing today from the time as it was circulated around the Church after his death. Yet there is silence as if there is approval and no contention as to the content of the Letter to Peter.
The argument from silence alone is not compelling. That the document only exists in translated fragments seems to indicate that it was not widely distributed. You would first have to prove that the document was widely disseminated and read for your argument to work
Secondly in Maxmus’s interrogation by Eastern prelates, we see his opinion towards Rome consistent with `what is in his letter to Peter. This even irritates the prelates to a point where they ask him :
Indeed, see how he says that he loves the Romans because they have one faith with him (which is to say that he is in agreement with their faith, and they are in agreement with his, not by any sort of compulsion, but by a true love for and faith in Christ), not because the See of Rome is the infallible see with which one must be in agreement on all matters of doctrine. This is no evidence for the case which you are trying to argue, namely, that the Roman Pontiff is infallible on matters of faith and morals, and that it is necessary to be in communion with him.
With regard to Pope Honorius, Maximus defends and proves that Honorius was not a heretic :
But this put you in a quandary. Who are you to believe, St. Maximus or Pope Leo II who wrote in his letter to the bishops in Spain exhorting them to accept the decisions of the Sixth Ecumenical Council that Pope Honorius would suffer eternal torment for teaching heresy? That Pope Honorius was a heretic, at least materially is undeniable, as an Ecumenical Council declared so, and anathematized him and ordered his letters to Sergius burned. You present one father who argued (partially for the reason that his allies at the time were from the Roman see, and to admit that a Roman bishop had taught monothelitism would be for him to concede defeat) that Honorius was not a heretic. We on the other hand have the witness of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, the Synod in Constantinople of 869-870 (which your Church calls the “Eight Ecumenical Council,” even though it was annulled by the later Council of Constantinople in 879) and numerous popes, all who affirmed that Honorius was an heretic. Who are we then to believe, one father (who was still fallible, despite the absolute steadfastness of his Christological and Cosmological doctrines), or the Catholic and universal witness of so many fathers and councils that Honorius was an heretic?
 
“And all the most reverend bishops at the same time cried out [in response to Pope St Cœlestine’s letter]. This is a just judgment. To Cœlestine, a new Paul! To Cyril a new Paul! To Cœlestine the guardian of the faith! To Cœlestine of one mind with the synod! To Cœlestine the whole Synod offers its thanks! One Cœlestine! One Cyril! One faith of the Synod! One faith of the world!” - Third Ecumenical Council, Session II (Continued)
Source: ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.xiv.html

[emphasis mine]
Just because one Pope of Rome was called the guardian of the Faith doesn’t mean that all of them are.
…who can and has at times deviated from the Catholic Faith… As has the patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Church. We now have tons of True Genuine Orthodox Churches all claiming orthodoxy.
What do the patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Church have to do with anything? I never said they were infallible. The Church as a whole will always hold to the Orthodox Faith, even if Individual people from laymen right on up to patriarchs (and Popes) may deviate from it.
Wait, wait surely your are not suggesting the East never deviated from the faith? How quickly we forget. Sinners my friend that is the paradox, this is a Church of sinners who “must” strive not to sin.
I’m not suggesting that. What I take issue with is the fact that the Catholics place obedience to the Pope above adherence to the Faith.
And yes in the East you are subject to your Bishop in your See, as is in Rome.
Unless he falls into heresy or tells me to do something clearly against the Faith.
And yes the Saints are a blessing to all. Why do you ignore your BIshop and quote Saints to him when you disagree?
Wait, what? You completely lost me at the bolded sentence.
And we “all” follow that book. Better known as the most Holy Bible. Greatest book ever written? Must have. 👍
I was more referring to the entire Apostolic Tradition, and not just the Bible.
 
Unless he falls into heresy or tells me to do something clearly against the Faith.
Fantastic, I don’t see where the East is in heresy. Nor do I see any declaration of the sort from anyone East or West. So the issue is the OP. Which I believe has been answered, you agree?
 
What do the patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Church have to do with anything? I never said they were infallible. The Church as a whole will always hold to the Orthodox Faith, even if Individual people from laymen right on up to patriarchs (and Popes) may deviate from it.
The pope is only infallible when speaking ex cathedra on morals and doctrines (this has actually only occurred a few times). Blessed Pope John Paul II made fallible mistakes. Pope Benedict made fallible mistakes. Some popes in the past have made grievous mistakes. This is the same with the patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

I agree, individual people from laymen right on up to patriarchs and including the popes of Rome may deviate from the Faith and make mistakes. 👍 Popes have only spoken infallibly a few times in these 2,000 years. 🙂
 
That is not a very worthwhile criterion when there is no way to determine whether it has been satisfied. Some people would say that the Pope’s entire business is faith and morals (he is the leader of the world’s largest single religious organization, after all), while others point out that this infallibility stuff has only been invoked in exceptional circumstances in order affirm dogma that would otherwise be in dispute.

Either way, I don’t really see the point. Ask any random sample of Catholics what’s infallible and what isn’t, in terms of statements or documents or whatever, and you’ll get many different answers. That wouldn’t be a problem in itself (Orthodox certainly have a wide variety of opinions on many things concerning their faith, too), if it weren’t for the fact that this whole infallibility thing is supposed to eliminate this sort of fuzziness.
 
That is not a very worthwhile criterion when there is no way to determine whether it has been satisfied. Some people would say that the Pope’s entire business is faith and morals (he is the leader of the world’s largest single religious organization, after all), while others point out that this infallibility stuff has only been invoked in exceptional circumstances in order affirm dogma that would otherwise be in dispute.
Note that speaking ex cathedra requires very definitive wording.

The conditions required for ex cathedra papal teaching:
  1. “the Roman Pontiff”
  2. “speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority”…)
    3. "he defines"
  3. “that a doctrine concerning faith or morals”
    5. “must be held by the whole Church” (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)
 
Note that speaking ex cathedra requires very definitive wording.

The conditions required for ex cathedra papal teaching:
  1. “the Roman Pontiff”
  2. “speaks ex cathedra” (“that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority”…)
    3. "he defines"
  3. “that a doctrine concerning faith or morals”
    5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)
Now, can you please give us the list of Ex-Cathedra statements? :3
 
Yep. And all that is too vague to mean much.
Dzheremi, it may seem vague to you but, most Roman popes have never spoken ex cathedra. I understand that you do not believe in papal infallibility but please understand that whether or not the pope is speaking ex cathedra is not vague to Catholics (in Communion with Rome).
 
Dzheremi, it may seem vague to you but, most Roman popes have never spoken ex cathedra. I understand that you do not believe in papal infallibility but please understand that whether or not the pope is speaking ex cathedra is not vague to Catholics (in Communion with Rome).
But different theologians have differing opinions. Did Pope Boniface VIII speak ex cathedra in Unam Sanctam, for example? The answer depends wholly on who you ask.
 
Now, can you please give us the list of Ex-Cathedra statements? :3
  1. Mary’s Immaculate Conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854
  2. Mary’s bodily Assumption into Heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950)
“The conciliar texts also indicate the conditions for the Roman Pontiff’s exercise of the infallible Magisterium. They can be summarized in this way: the Pope must act as “the shepherd and teacher of all Christians,” pronouncing on truths regarding “faith and morals,” in terms clearly showing his intention to define a certain truth and to require definitive assent of all Christians. That occurred, for example, in the definition of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, about which Pius IX stated: “It is a doctrine revealed by God and for this reason it must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful” (DS 2803), or in the definition of the Assumption of Mary most holy, when Pius XII said: “By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we declare and define as divinely revealed dogma…etc.” (DS 3903).” - Blessed Pope John Paul II, General Audience (March 24, 1993)
 
But different theologians have differing opinions. Did Pope Boniface VIII speak ex cathedra in Unam Sanctam, for example? The answer depends wholly on who you ask.
It doesn’t matter who you ask. The Church has only two officially accepted occurences of speaking ex cathedra.
  1. Mary’s Immaculate Conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854
  2. Mary’s bodily Assumption into Heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950)
 
It doesn’t matter who you ask. The Church has only two officially accepted occurences of speaking ex cathedra.
  1. Mary’s Immaculate Conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854
  2. Mary’s bodily Assumption into Heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950)
Where may I find an official document which states that?
 
Where may I find an official document which states that?
“The conciliar texts also indicate the conditions for the Roman Pontiff’s exercise of the infallible Magisterium. They can be summarized in this way: the Pope must act as “the shepherd and teacher of all Christians,” pronouncing on truths regarding “faith and morals,” in terms clearly showing his intention to define a certain truth and to require definitive assent of all Christians. That occurred, for example, in the definition of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, about which Pius IX stated: “It is a doctrine revealed by God and for this reason it must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful” (DS 2803), or in the definition of the Assumption of Mary most holy, when Pius XII said: “By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we declare and define as divinely revealed dogma…etc.” (DS 3903).” - Blessed Pope John Paul II, General Audience (March 24, 1993)

[emphasis mine]
 
It doesn’t matter who you ask. The Church has only two officially accepted occurences of speaking ex cathedra.
  1. Mary’s Immaculate Conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854
  2. Mary’s bodily Assumption into Heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950)
It’s so glad to know that Pope Leo’s Tome wasn’t infallible and to know that every time Catholic apologists told me Pope Leo “infallibly” declared the Filioque dogma they where lying to me. 🙂
 
It’s so glad to know that Pope Leo’s Tome wasn’t infallible and to know that every time Catholic apologists told me Pope Leo “infallibly” declared the Filioque dogma they where lying to me. 🙂
That is why we follow it’s definition in the Councils of Lyons and Florence not Pope St Leo. 🙂
 
“The conciliar texts also indicate the conditions for the Roman Pontiff’s exercise of the infallible Magisterium. They can be summarized in this way: the Pope must act as “the shepherd and teacher of all Christians,” pronouncing on truths regarding “faith and morals,” in terms clearly showing his intention to define a certain truth and to require definitive assent of all Christians. That occurred, for example, in the definition of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, about which Pius IX stated: “It is a doctrine revealed by God and for this reason it must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful” (DS 2803), or in the definition of the Assumption of Mary most holy, when Pius XII said: “By the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we declare and define as divinely revealed dogma…etc.” (DS 3903).” - Blessed Pope John Paul II, General Audience (March 24, 1993)

[emphasis mine]
Nowhere does that excerpt say that it did not occur anywhere else. That is, the excerpt is providing those as examples, not as a closed canon of Ex Cathedra statements. It is possible that Unam Sanctam is ex cathedra, hence why I said that the answer to that question depends on who you ask.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top