Why does Satan think he can win?

[Iamnotafraid]

Why does Satan think he can win against God?

One word

 

[Della]

Mark77;5022281:

Why does Satan think he can win against God?

Satan keeps forgetting that God is omnipotent and omniscient, therefor unbeatable. You think by now, Satan would have had that written down somewhere by now.

Lack of evidence and the various absurdities found in all religions help allot as well.

Lack of evidence that Jesus is the son of the creator of the universe and is also the creator of the universe at the same time.

Embrace reason.

First of all, you are leaving out a large part of what makes any sentient being sentient–will.

Secondly, there is plenty of evidence for the existence of God and that Jesus is his Son. There’s no proof, which is an entirely different matter.

And thirdly, you quote Martin Luther in your signature line after signing onto a Catholic forum. You can quote him all you like, of course, but it’s funny because Luther doesn’t speak for the Catholic Church, only for himself. Even modern day Lutherans don’t follow Luther.

And lastly, reason is not the enemy of faith. Catholic believe in faith and reason–it’s both/and for us not either/or as it was for Luther.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

And lastly, reason is not the enemy of faith. Catholic believe in faith and reason–it’s both/and for us not either/or as it was for Luther.

Luther was being honest.

You say that Catholics believe in both reason and faith.

I say it is unreasonable to believe in an ageless spiritual being called the Devil.

You say it is reasonable to believe in an invisible supernatural being called the Devil.

Surely, one of us is being unreasonable.

 

[Biggie]

Luther was being honest.

You say that Catholics believe in both reason and faith.

I say it is unreasonable to believe in an ageless spiritual being called the Devil.

You say it is reasonable to believe in an invisible supernatural being called the Devil.

Surely, one of us is being unreasonable.

Methinks I detect a tautology.

 

[Della]

Luther was being honest.

You say that Catholics believe in both reason and faith.

I say it is unreasonable to believe in an ageless spiritual being called the Devil.

You say it is reasonable to believe in an invisible supernatural being called the Devil.

Surely, one of us is being unreasonable.

Just your declaring that you find it unreasonable doesn’t make it unreasonable. It’s simply that you do not want to accept these concepts, not that they cannot be true. It is you who are being close-minded, not us.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

Just your declaring that you find it unreasonable doesn’t make it unreasonable. It’s simply that you do not want to accept these concepts, not that they cannot be true. It is you who are being close-minded, not us.

Believing in invisible spirit beings and in many cases, believing that these invisible spirit beings speak to people, is a very unreasonable thing to believe.

Is it reasonable to believe that aliens communicate with people and abduct them?

Of course not, yet believing in invisible spirits that involve themselves in our lives, is according to you, quite reasonable?

 

[Della]

Believing in invisible spirit beings and in many cases, believing that these invisible spirit beings speak to people, is a very unreasonable thing to believe.

Is it reasonable to believe that aliens communicate with people and abduct them?

Of course not, yet believing in invisible spirits that involve themselves in our lives, is according to you, quite reasonable?

This is waaaaaaaay off topic now. But I will say that all you’ve done here is throw into the ring a stale old chestnut that’s been refuted a hundred million gazillion times! :hypno: Do some real research into what Catholics believe and why, and then come back to us with something cogent to say. Please do! God bless you in spite of yourself.

 

[Biggie]

This is waaaaaaaay off topic now. But I will say that all you’ve done here is throw into the ring a stale old chestnut that’s been refuted a hundred million gazillion times! :hypno: Do some real research into what Catholics believe and why, and then come back to us with something cogent to say. Please do! God bless you in spite of yourself.

You know, I actually think he is accidentally making an interesting point. It is easier for many to believe in aliens - still a belief - because they are material. In my view, fallen reason is a digestive process with utility as its aim. That which is material appeals to it because it has an expectation of digesting it.

Clearly he is wrong that a belief in the spiritual is unreasonable - although I think he means to say irrational. Reason knows that the spiritual is possible because it is aware that love exists, for which it cannot find a purpose. Reason further understands that love does not cease with the death of the beloved. Reason is also aware that for all its vaunted ability death remains irrational and a mystery.

But reason cannot hold spirituality irrational because it is well aware that if the spirit does exist it must operate by a superior rational principle since it transcends death. Logically that which is inferior cannot both be inferior and at the same time include and surpass that which is superior.

So for my ticket, fallen reason has a distaste for the possibility of the spiritual but cannot dismiss it as irrational so it holds the hypothesis in suspense.

 

[Della]

You know, I actually think he is accidentally making an interesting point. It is easier for many to believe in aliens - still a belief - because they are material. In my view, fallen reason is a digestive process with utility as its aim. That which is material appeals to it because it has an expectation of digesting it.

Clearly he is wrong that a belief in the spiritual is unreasonable - although I think he means to say irrational. Reason knows that the spiritual is possible because it is aware that love exists, for which it cannot find a purpose. Reason further understands that love does not cease with the death of the beloved. Reason is also aware that for all its vaunted ability death remains irrational and a mystery.

But reason cannot hold spirituality irrational because it is well aware that if the spirit does exist it must operate by a superior rational principle since it transcends death. Logically that which is inferior cannot both be inferior and at the same time include and surpass that which is superior.

So for my ticket, fallen reason has a distaste for the possibility of the spiritual but cannot dismiss it as irrational so it holds the hypothesis in suspense.

I get what you’re saying (which you said quite brilliantly, btw). Still, I suspect if he hadn’t brought up aliens he would have used the old “flying spaghetti monster” argument or the Santa Claus or tooth fairy argument to try to “prove” that belief in God or the devil is irrational, which none of them are, really. For all we know there may be flying spaghetti monsters, Santa Claus (in the cultural sense–the little fat man in a red suit, etc) or tooth fairies. It’s not unreasonable to think that somewhere in the universe they might exist. What we don’t have is any evidence of such beings existence, apart from God and the devil, that is.

We see the effects the devil has on people as well as the effects the Holy Spirit has. Jesus told Nicodemus that the Spirit is like the wind–you see him in the actions/belief/witness of the Children of God, just as we see the influence of Satan in terrorists, murderers and rapists. So, getting back to the thread topic, we know Satan is motivated by hatred. Why he is so motivated is what we are discussing not whether or not he exists, so if we all want to discuss that we should start a new thread.

 

[Biggie]

We see the effects the devil has on people as well as the effects the Holy Spirit has. Jesus told Nicodemus that the Spirit is like the wind–you see him in the actions/belief/witness of the Children of God, just as we see the influence of Satan in terrorists, murderers and rapists. So, getting back to the thread topic, we know Satan is motivated by hatred. Why he is so motivated is what we are discussing not whether or not he exists, so if we all want to discuss that we should start a new thread.

Good point and good point.

 

[North_of_Nod]

I think Satan’s mentality is more like: If I’m going down, I’m taking you with me. I doubt he thinks he can actually “win” against God; in fact, I think he knows he’s doomed ultimately. He probably just wants to hurt God as much as he can in the meantime to make Him “pay” for his expulsion from Heaven. Satan knows he can’t actually hurt God Himself, so he picks the nearest and dearest thing to God - His children. Kinda sounds like your typical bitter criminal, eh?

 

[distracted]

I think Satan’s mentality is more like: If I’m going down, I’m taking you with me. I doubt he thinks he can actually “win” against God; in fact, I think he knows he’s doomed ultimately. He probably just wants to hurt God as much as he can in the meantime to make Him “pay” for his expulsion from Heaven. Satan knows he can’t actually hurt God Himself, so he picks the nearest and dearest thing to God - His children. Kinda sounds like your typical bitter criminal, eh?

well said…

and congratulations on becoming Catholic…

wondering how far along you are?

what religion were you raised in?

and anything else you may want to add…

 

[distracted]

Satan does win all the time…

haven’t read all posts… but he apparently wins more often than not because most people, according to the saints, either go to Hell or long, excrutiatingly painful stays in Purgatory… when they die.

some saints say that very few people go to Heaven (via Purgatory or otherwise)…

and with all that i have seen… i don’t have a hard time beliving that…

 

[HickmanJosh]

If he didn’t think he could win do you think that could stop him?

Very good forum by the way and i think all the points here have some merit, Pride, arrogance, ignorance, hate. Maybe the father of lies deceived himself into thinking he could with.

And it is still and may always be a mystery.

i also find it hard to believe most people go to Hell. There is still plenty of Good in this world, this website is evidence of that.

HickmanJosh

 

[distracted]

If he didn’t think he could win do you think that could stop him?

Very good forum by the way and i think all the points here have some merit, Pride, arrogance, ignorance, hate. Maybe the father of lies deceived himself into thinking he could with.

And it is still and may always be a mystery.

i also find it hard to believe most people go to Hell. There is still plenty of Good in this world, this website is evidence of that.

HickmanJosh

Mary is supposed to have appeared to someone & told the person that Nowadays, most people go to Purgatory… Mabye that’s because Jesus’ Church has been spread to the whole world… whether Prot or Catholic… There may be other reasons… but in any case, i know that it is not easy getting into Heaven… and Purg is only Hell that comes to an end, basically… Who wants that ?

but Jesus did say that the way to Heaven was narrow and there are few who find it… (st Mt 7:20 / st Mk 13:24)

i don’t know if that Marian apparition aforementioned is recognized by the Church or not… so i don’t automatically trust it. St Leonard seems to teach that very, very few people get into heaven… or evne Purg… but he lived in the 1100s… I don’t know…

have to trust God… but i DO know from experience that there is an overabundance of evil in this world and it will NOT go unpunished… forever…

I’m paying dearly for my past sins (though He helps me expiate and does a good job… Real Presence :heaven: ) and God is no respecter of persons…

 

[HickmanJosh]

((have to trust God… but i DO know from experience that there is an overabundance of evil in this world and it will NOT go unpunished… forever…))

this is true. Ive read around the world secularism and right wing extremism is on the rise but there are still around a billion Christians, there is still hope. And i can at least try to be optimistic and hope that more people go to heaven than St Leonard Says. and the world is a different place than it was 900 years ago.

((AND GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS))

what does this last part mean? i thought respect was a big part of Love?
HickmanJosh

 

[distracted]

((have to trust God… but i DO know from experience that there is an overabundance of evil in this world and it will NOT go unpunished… forever…))

this is true. Ive read around the world secularism and right wing extremism is on the rise but there are still around a billion Christians, there is still hope. And i can at least try to be optimistic and hope that more people go to heaven than St Leonard Says. and the world is a different place than it was 900 years ago.

((AND GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS))

what does this last part mean? i thought respect was a big part of Love?

 HickmanJosh

i meant that if i suffer so much because of past sins that have messed up my soul/heart/mind… then others will suffer also… God is no respecter…

 

[HickmanJosh]

(( i meant that if i suffer so much because of past sins that have messed up my soul/heart/mind… then others will suffer also… God is no respecter…))

 It is my understanding that God is Love and a big part of Love is Respect if you Love someone you must respect them and if you respect someone then its not hard to love . i can't say anything about your suffering other than God would only let you suffer if he Knew it would help you get close to him (and from what i can tell you seem very close).  if you have repented of your sins then they are gone, forgotten. 1 Corinthians 13 ((Love keeps no record of wrongs.))

Ok were starting to get way off topic here, back to the battle at hand…

HickmanJosh

 

[neophyte]

Hi everyone.

I was reading “The Screwtape Letters” (excellent book), and I started thinking: Why does Satan think he can win against God?

I doubt it.

I mean, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that you’ll lose against the God of the Universe, who can do literally anything at the snap of his fingers. Satan must be aware that the Apocalypse says he will be thrown into the “Lake of Fire”. So why on earth does he keep trying?.

Because he’s consumed by hate, and he wants to bring everyone he can along with him.

 

[North_of_Nod]

well said…

and congratulations on becoming Catholic…

wondering how far along you are?

what religion were you raised in?

and anything else you may want to add…

Thanks, distracted! I’m not very far along, but I’m really enjoying it. My dad is Jewish and my mom is Catholic, but they never had me baptized. They wanted me to make up my own mind about which religion to choose. I know Mom really fought hard for baptism, but Dad would not agree to it. It worked out well, but they took a huge risk letting me decide for myself. If you’re not raised in a religion, it’s hard to come around to it, especially in the fallen society in which we live. Thank God I found the Church! I’ve always believed in God and held very conservative views, but I never belonged to a church. It’s wonderful to be accepted into such a strong community of believers.