Why does the Bible include the Old Testament?

[Lion_IRC]

It *has *to be included…because the Christian faith is based on it, on the idea that the Jews were waiting for a messiah. And the prophesies he supposedly fulfilled to be this messiah are in the OT, something many Christians base their belief on. And many of the beliefs of the OT are still carried forward.

You do realise it wasn’t called the ‘Old’ testament in Jesus’ day.

.Yes, there is a lot of atrocity in the OT…a lot of god ordering people to be murdered…

By your reckoning, capital punishment is ‘murder’.
The president of the United States orders soldiers to ‘murder’ enemy combatants.
An abortion doctor is just following ‘orders’ right?

…and god doing the murders himself of innocent people.

Is God also a ‘murderer’ for creating mosquitos and the malaria virus?

…But whether christians like it or not, it is very relevant and a big part of your history and the evolution of christianity.

Why would Christians not value every Word of scripture?
You think we’re embarassed or ashamed that there is death and violence and the wrath of God in the bible? Have you read the last book of the New Testament?

 

[Bestil_Andno]

This is more of a historical question than a philosophical question. Why is the Old Testament included in printings of the Bible? It’s largely irrelevant, and some of the atrocities committed in it would seem to be detrimental to non-Jews accepting Yahweh as THE actual god - and thus to accepting Jesus.

So whose idea was it, exactly, that the entire Old Testament - dry laws, accounts of infanticide committed by the Jews, census results, lists of sacrifices, and detailed instructions regarding various aspects of daily Jewish life - should be attached to the New Testament when it came to making copies of the Bible?

The Old Testament is not irrelevant at all.

The Bible reveals God’s plan of salvation for mankind. It is that history and it is HIS-story.

That plan and that story does not start in the first century with the coming of Jesus Christ.

It starts with the creation which we read about in Genesis. The writings of the Old Testament are part of that story. Many of the writings overlap in the time they were written and the Bible is not compiled in narrative form.

If we want to read the Bible in narrative form to sort of keep the storyline flowing we could do that by reading:

Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Joshua, Judges, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, Ezra, Nehemiah, 1 Maccabees, Luke, and Acts.

That gives us a good overview of the story.

Peace.

 

[drac16]

We can still live by many of it’s teachings. “Love your neighbor as yourself” comes from the book of Leviticus. The book of Proverbs is full of sayings that we can live by. The Psalms help us appreciate the grace of God. The book of Deuteronomy shows us the holiness and wrath of God; we can grow spiritually from reading about those things.

Go read Deuteronomy 28, where God threatens the jews with curses if they don’t obey Him. He says that He’ll punish them with tumors, scabs, madness, slavery, locusts, worms, rape and even cannibalism. You may say “Why would God do such a thing?”. We have to remember that God hates sin. He’s too pure to look at sin and treat it as a small matter. That’s why the cross was absolutely necessary. The cross is a symbol of how depraved we really are, because it took the death of God’s own Son to redeem us.

If we don’t obey God, He will unleash [upon us] a penalty far worse than anything that’s mentioned in Deuteronomy 28; Hellfire. Next time you find yourself lusting after a woman or man, think of Deuteronomy 28. Think of it from God’s perspective of how bad that sin really is. That should be something to motivate us when we’re struggling with temptation.

 

[thephilosopher6]

That’s certainly a matter of opinion. Personally, I wouldn’t call this God’s word or anything close to it:

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian. Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war. So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho. And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

You are advocating a dangerous heresy similar to Marcionism in your posts. This is contrary to the teachings of the Church and orthodoxy as a whole.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

A Theology professor taught us that we are “spiritual Semites,” and the Old Testament is our history and revelation too.

 

[Memaw]

This is more of a historical question than a philosophical question. Why is the Old Testament included in printings of the Bible? It’s largely irrelevant, and some of the atrocities committed in it would seem to be detrimental to non-Jews accepting Yahweh as THE actual god - and thus to accepting Jesus.

So whose idea was it, exactly, that the entire Old Testament - dry laws, accounts of infanticide committed by the Jews, census results, lists of sacrifices, and detailed instructions regarding various aspects of daily Jewish life - should be attached to the New Testament when it came to making copies of the Bible?

It is the Inspired Word of God and tells of the NEED for and the coming of Our Messiah. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Peter_J]

It *has *to be included…because the Christian faith is based on it, on the idea that the Jews were waiting for a messiah. And the prophesies he supposedly fulfilled to be this messiah are in the OT, something many Christians base their belief on. And many of the beliefs of the OT are still carried forward.
I can’t count how many times people on this forum have said that although Jesus never spoke of certain issues, they know how he felt about them because the Jewish perspective of it is explained in the OT.
Christianity needs the OT.

Also, since Christian and Jewish devotees worship the “one, same” god, it makes sense to pair the books together.
It’s not as though Christianity was an entirely new religion. It began as a sect of Judaism.
And let’s not forget that Jesus was Jewish and he did not come, as he said, to abolish those laws.
So the OT was very important to him, it was what he lived by.

Yes, there is a lot of atrocity in the OT…a lot of god ordering people to be murdered, and god doing the murders himself of innocent people.
But whether christians like it or not, it is very relevant and a big part of your history and the evolution of christianity.

Indeed. I think the real question here is, Why is seeing the OT as Scripture an issue? My answer to that is, Because of the fundamentalist view of the Bible as written by God.

 

[meltzerboy]

We can still live by many of it’s teachings. “Love your neighbor as yourself” comes from the book of Leviticus. The book of Proverbs is full of sayings that we can live by. The Psalms help us appreciate the grace of God. The book of Deuteronomy shows us the holiness and wrath of God; we can grow spiritually from reading about those things.

Go read Deuteronomy 28, where God threatens the jews with curses if they don’t obey Him. He says that He’ll punish them with tumors, scabs, madness, slavery, locusts, worms, rape and even cannibalism. You may say “Why would God do such a thing?”. We have to remember that God hates sin. He’s too pure to look at sin and treat it as a small matter. That’s why the cross was absolutely necessary. The cross is a symbol of how depraved we really are, because it took the death of God’s own Son to redeem us.

If we don’t obey God, He will unleash [upon us] a penalty far worse than anything that’s mentioned in Deuteronomy 28; Hellfire. Next time you find yourself lusting after a woman or man, think of Deuteronomy 28. Think of it from God’s perspective of how bad that sin really is. That should be something to motivate us when we’re struggling with temptation.

“How depraved we really are”? But we are also created in the image of G-d. And how is it that we are tempted in the first place, that is, Who affords us the capacity to be tempted and to succumb to such temptations but G-d. Our human nature contains both the potential for doing good and the capacity to choose evil. These are G-d-given attributes. Judaism believes that G-d created ALL, including evil; HaSatan has no power on his own and he is in the service of G-d as one who tempts us. We are redeemed by choosing the good, which, like evil, G-d has given us the ability to exercise over our behavior. The prophets exhort us to do so through prayer in the form of repentance for our misdeeds and service toward others, and G-d respects and rewards us for our striving toward improvement.

 

[thistle]

That’s certainly a matter of opinion. Personally, I wouldn’t call this God’s word or anything close to it:

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian. Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war. So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho. And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

Its not a matter of opinion. The Canon was determined by the Church. The Church has said both the OT and NT are the word of God. Are you saying the Church teaching on Sacred Scripture is wrong?

CCC 120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books. This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.

The Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi.

The New Testament: the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the Acts of the Apostles, the Letters of St. Paul to the Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, the Letter to the Hebrews, the Letters of James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2 and 3 John, and Jude, and Revelation (the Apocalypse).

 

[Peter_J]

“How depraved we really are”? But we are also created in the image of G-d. And how is it that we are tempted in the first place, that is, Who affords us the capacity to be tempted and to succumb to such temptations but G-d. Our human nature contains both the potential for doing good and the capacity to choose evil. These are G-d-given attributes. Judaism believes that G-d created ALL, including evil; HaSatan has no power on his own and he is in the service of G-d as one who tempts us. We are redeemed by choosing the good, which, like evil, G-d has given us the ability to exercise over our behavior. The prophets exhort us to do so through prayer in the form of repentance for our misdeeds and service toward others, and G-d respects and rewards us for our striving toward improvement.

Hi mb, I was rather hoping some Jewish posters would join the discussion.

I’m curious your thoughts vis a vis the Moses quote,

“And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

 

[Tuxedo_Mark]

Its not a matter of opinion. The Canon was determined by the Church.

But different denominations have different lists of what goes into the OT (heck, I’m sure some even differ on the NT). That’s why Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants all have different lists of books that go into the OT - and listed in a different order as well. So, yes, it is a matter of opinion.

More broadly, though, I think the world would have been just a little bit better had the OT not been included in writings and printings of the Bible. Much less wasted paper and ink over the centuries. The OT had gradually been excluded from readings in church during the Middle Ages anyway, hence policing its canon wasn’t considered important. So why print all of that? The backstory could have been given via a note or official summary before the NT - with directions for the reader to consult Jewish Scripture if s/he was interested in learning more. And it might, y’know, have encouraged Christians to visit a Jewish bookstore and maybe make some friends that weren’t just like them.

 

[Peter_J]

… Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants all have different lists of books that go into the OT …

Indeed, and I don’t believe we need to agree on that. (Well, maybe Protestants do.)

 

[thephilosopher6]

But different denominations have different lists of what goes into the OT (heck, I’m sure some even differ on the NT). That’s why Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants all have different lists of books that go into the OT - and listed in a different order as well. So, yes, it is a matter of opinion.

More broadly, though, I think the world would have been just a little bit better had the OT not been included in writings and printings of the Bible. Much less wasted paper and ink over the centuries. The OT had gradually been excluded from readings in church during the Middle Ages anyway, hence policing its canon wasn’t considered important. So why print all of that? The backstory could have been given via a note or official summary before the NT - with directions for the reader to consult Jewish Scripture if s/he was interested in learning more. And it might, y’know, have encouraged Christians to visit a Jewish bookstore and maybe make some friends that weren’t just like them.

If you’re not going to believe what the Church teaches and allow yourself to fall into a very dangerous heresy, then I suggest you go find yourself some “new age” Gnostic group and join them. Either that or recant and submit to Church doctrine!

 

[Lion_IRC]

I love reading about God’s history in the world.
I wouldn’t complain if the bible was ten times as long as it is now.

Who on Earth wants less bible?

 

[PNEUMA]

It was included to show us why God had to create a new Israel, a new people of God, a new covenant, a new Jerusalem. That is a new heaven and a new earth.

Revelation 21:5 "And the one who was seated on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new.”

 

[thistle]

But different denominations have different lists of what goes into the OT (heck, I’m sure some even differ on the NT). That’s why Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants all have different lists of books that go into the OT - and listed in a different order as well. So, yes, it is a matter of opinion.

More broadly, though, I think the world would have been just a little bit better had the OT not been included in writings and printings of the Bible. Much less wasted paper and ink over the centuries. The OT had gradually been excluded from readings in church during the Middle Ages anyway, hence policing its canon wasn’t considered important. So why print all of that? The backstory could have been given via a note or official summary before the NT - with directions for the reader to consult Jewish Scripture if s/he was interested in learning more. And it might, y’know, have encouraged Christians to visit a Jewish bookstore and maybe make some friends that weren’t just like them.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is the only Church established by Christ and given authority by him in matters of faith and morals. The Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit determined what Scripture was inspired. That is not an opinion.

 

[Thom18]

But different denominations have different lists of what goes into the OT (heck, I’m sure some even differ on the NT). That’s why Jews, Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants all have different lists of books that go into the OT - and listed in a different order as well. So, yes, it is a matter of opinion.

More broadly, though, I think the world would have been just a little bit better had the OT not been included in writings and printings of the Bible. Much less wasted paper and ink over the centuries. The OT had gradually been excluded from readings in church during the Middle Ages anyway, hence policing its canon wasn’t considered important. So why print all of that? The backstory could have been given via a note or official summary before the NT - with directions for the reader to consult Jewish Scripture if s/he was interested in learning more. And it might, y’know, have encouraged Christians to visit a Jewish bookstore and maybe make some friends that weren’t just like them.

As someone else said, this is really close to Marcionism, a heresy. You want to reject the Old Testament because you’re uncomfortable with the dark passages. The fact of the matter is that they are just as important as anything else in the Bible. It’s all a part of salvation history, and none of it should be excluded, especially for the sake of making us “more comfortable”. Do we teach truth, or a form of prosperity gospel?