K
kkollwitz
Guest
You may want to join DRE Connect and ask some questions there:
dreconnect.loyolapress.com/index.php/teach.html
dreconnect.loyolapress.com/index.php/teach.html
Why Does The Catholic Church Do Such A Poor Job Teaching Its Members?
- Status
H
haastiin
Guest
“I was at Mass Sunday, and it went 73 minutes! Fater has no respect for our time. I missed my breakfast reservation because of that!”
I hear excuses like that all the time about why 62 minutes for God (including parking) is the maximum allowable slice of time allotted to “religion.” Sunday School, Wednesday Night Prayer Services, Friday night choir, Saturday Devotions with the Couples Club, Sunday evening services - that’s not untypical for non-Catholic families. That’s how we were brought up. We also really STUDIED the Bible, memorized verses, listened to gave talks on Bible topics on our own time.
Once we have our Sunday obligation filled, why stop there. Yes, there is a TON of good stuff - 2000 years worth - and Catholic biblicists are the BEST in the World! So many Catholics are hungering for good Bible teaching they listen to Calvary Chapel preachers every day. EWTN can’t compete with those guys (face it, most of it is pretty dry) because they aren’t on every stretch of the FM and AM band in America.
We should see our 1 hour obligation as the absolute minimum and strive to go for the absolute maximum stewardship of time, talent, and treasure. We give 2% of our treasure to the church and 0.59% of our time to the church for most folks, maybe 4.2% of our time for daily Mass-goers. And knowing that we are amazed there is a decline in vocations.
forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/confused.gif
G
Geaux_LSU
Guest
Amen Haastiin! I’m an ex-protestant who got confirmed in the Church this past Easter. The non-denominational church I attended before I became Catholic had praise and worship services sometimes lasting up to an hour, and this was even before the preaching began
! I think most Catholics (at least in my parish) have lost the joy and excitement of their faith…
G
Gordon_Sims
Guest
I think this is a problem that has grown and developed over the last 40 years or so. I also don’t think it’s fair blaming cradle Catholics for their own bad catechesis. I went through twelve years of Catholic schools and I don’t know that I ever heard the word “catechism” until long after I graduated. Much of what I was taught in grade school was flawed and inaccurate, and none of my high school classes taught anything that could actually be referred to as catechesis. Sure, we learned about Church history and world religions; we had a Christian Morality class (where we learned we shouldn’t lie, cheat or steal), a Christian Relationships class (where we learned we shouldn’t lie, cheat or steal) and a Christian current events class (where we learned they shouldn’t lie, cheat or steal) but nothing that actually provided any genuine catechesis (and God forbid anyone bring up anything even remotely related to sex). We had Mass no more than once a month, whether we needed it or not, and we prayed no more than twice a day, whether we needed it or not. When we graduated, nearly everyone looked on it as though we’d never have to worry about that religion stuff again, or we came away believing we knew everything there was to know about the Church.
My son completed his twelve years of Catholic school, even going to the same high school I did, and with the exception of them adding service hours to his high school graduation requirement, nothing has changed. In fact, coming out of high school, he knew less about the faith than I did at that age (the school is much more inviting to non-Catholic students now which apparently has led to a watering down of the religious courses). My two oldest daughters are in Catholic grade school now and I’m doing everything I can to make sure they get the catechesis they need at home.
Getting back on topic, while I agree that parents should take primary responsibility for forming their children’s faith, I think the Church really needs to step up in a lot of areas. I heard someone on EWTN the other afternoon saying that they teach faith formation classes for the junior high kids in their parish. I’ve never attended a parish that has done that. I’ve heard others talk about how, when they were growing up 40-50 years ago, their schools would teach at least part of the catechism each year in order to instruct the kids on it and brush up on what they’d learned the previous year. I don’t know anyone personally who has gone through this in the last 30 years. My parish has “mandatory” baptism classes for first time parents. I couldn’t tell you what they cover since we were never required to attend. I believe the parishes and dioceses across the country should make it mandatory that the schools present at least some form of catechesis each school year, all the way through high school. For kids taking the sacraments for the first time, parental attendance at these should be mandatory, and the parents’ role needs to be stressed. If we can open people’s eyes to the fact that they don’t truly know what the Church teaches and that there is more out there for them, then possibly we can start reversing some of the apathy that seems so prevalent.
My son completed his twelve years of Catholic school, even going to the same high school I did, and with the exception of them adding service hours to his high school graduation requirement, nothing has changed. In fact, coming out of high school, he knew less about the faith than I did at that age (the school is much more inviting to non-Catholic students now which apparently has led to a watering down of the religious courses). My two oldest daughters are in Catholic grade school now and I’m doing everything I can to make sure they get the catechesis they need at home.
Getting back on topic, while I agree that parents should take primary responsibility for forming their children’s faith, I think the Church really needs to step up in a lot of areas. I heard someone on EWTN the other afternoon saying that they teach faith formation classes for the junior high kids in their parish. I’ve never attended a parish that has done that. I’ve heard others talk about how, when they were growing up 40-50 years ago, their schools would teach at least part of the catechism each year in order to instruct the kids on it and brush up on what they’d learned the previous year. I don’t know anyone personally who has gone through this in the last 30 years. My parish has “mandatory” baptism classes for first time parents. I couldn’t tell you what they cover since we were never required to attend. I believe the parishes and dioceses across the country should make it mandatory that the schools present at least some form of catechesis each school year, all the way through high school. For kids taking the sacraments for the first time, parental attendance at these should be mandatory, and the parents’ role needs to be stressed. If we can open people’s eyes to the fact that they don’t truly know what the Church teaches and that there is more out there for them, then possibly we can start reversing some of the apathy that seems so prevalent.
G
Geaux_LSU
Guest
I have two friends who graduated from Catholic schools, and one of them was never taught that the story of Jonah was actually in the Bible. Seriously. What’s been going on in these schools for the last 40 years!?
G
Gordon_Sims
Guest
My OT history class in high school skipped over Johah, Noah, Daniel and anything else on the more supernatural side. I’m honestly surprised when I hear from high school classmates who are still strong in their faith simply because, unless you sought out the religious groups, clubs and activities, I don’t think they made it very easy to stay religious throughout high school.
H
haastiin
Guest
Wow. That is some stark truth there Gordon and Geaux. It helps me understand a little about how so many of us cannot explain, defend, or witness to our faith. I grew up “Babtiterian.” Preached like Baptists and prayed like Presbyterians. My recollection is that one of the central purposes of parenting was the inculcation of scripture and doctrine - and pretty much in that order. I am astounded by how many practicing Catholics cannot name more than two books in a row of the Old Testament and sometimes struggle with getting more than four in a row in the New Testament. As many in this segment have reported, catechesis must have been a four-letter word during most of their lives. It’s like whoever was supposed to be responsible for catechesis said, "You don’t have to know about your faith; you just have to show up at least twice a year and don’t lie, cheat, or steal (twice a year gave you one-up on the Easter-only Catholics). And of course you had to eat a lot of fish and stay away from meat part of the year if your parents remembered.
Gordon, I believe you are in the right on the idea of the foundation of Catechesis being with the parents. And both of you are also correct in stating the parents - for decades - have been insufficiently catechized. It is no wonder then that the sixth-graders my wife and I taught in RE could not identify key Biblical characters like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, and David. They did not know if Jonah was real or fictional, OT or NT; in fact, they could not describe the difference between the Old and New Testaments. We discovered their parents could not do any of that either. Our response was to teach Bible stories, to help them memorize the books of the Bible, and to draw concrete connections between the Bible and Christian doctrine - all things almost any 6th-grade Baptiterian could do.
Yes, the Church needs to step up big time and somehow get the grown-ups to become enthused about their “re-catechesis.” We have a saying in our house: “If you don’t have the time or inclination to do it right the first time, when will you find the time or inclination to do it over?” The time for vigorous, exciting, life-changing adult Catechesis is NOW. What is lacking in way too many quarters is the inclination.
Romans 10:14-17 -
14 But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15 And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring [the] good news!”* 16 But not everyone has heeded the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what was heard from us?” 17 Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
If you are not feeding on the word, you cannot feed others. We grown-ups have an unprecedented opportunity to undo neglected faith formation so that our kids and grandkids can experience the Joy of Christian Living by living Christ’s Law of Love. If inquiring minds want to know, then the Church needs to get busy and make the Bible what it is intended to be: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. Faith without works is dead, and so is doctrine without understanding. And if doctrine, faith, and the Word, are not available to adults or children - that is indeed a stark truth and sadly much prophesied about throughout the Bible.
Gentlemen, we are called to go out into all the world; sometime that takes us no farther than the kitchen table, but that’s a great place to give one’s testimony.
Deus Solus.
Age Quod Agis.**
Gordon, I believe you are in the right on the idea of the foundation of Catechesis being with the parents. And both of you are also correct in stating the parents - for decades - have been insufficiently catechized. It is no wonder then that the sixth-graders my wife and I taught in RE could not identify key Biblical characters like Abraham, Moses, Jacob, and David. They did not know if Jonah was real or fictional, OT or NT; in fact, they could not describe the difference between the Old and New Testaments. We discovered their parents could not do any of that either. Our response was to teach Bible stories, to help them memorize the books of the Bible, and to draw concrete connections between the Bible and Christian doctrine - all things almost any 6th-grade Baptiterian could do.
Yes, the Church needs to step up big time and somehow get the grown-ups to become enthused about their “re-catechesis.” We have a saying in our house: “If you don’t have the time or inclination to do it right the first time, when will you find the time or inclination to do it over?” The time for vigorous, exciting, life-changing adult Catechesis is NOW. What is lacking in way too many quarters is the inclination.
Romans 10:14-17 -
14 But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15 And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring [the] good news!”* 16 But not everyone has heeded the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what was heard from us?” 17 Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.
If you are not feeding on the word, you cannot feed others. We grown-ups have an unprecedented opportunity to undo neglected faith formation so that our kids and grandkids can experience the Joy of Christian Living by living Christ’s Law of Love. If inquiring minds want to know, then the Church needs to get busy and make the Bible what it is intended to be: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. Faith without works is dead, and so is doctrine without understanding. And if doctrine, faith, and the Word, are not available to adults or children - that is indeed a stark truth and sadly much prophesied about throughout the Bible.
Gentlemen, we are called to go out into all the world; sometime that takes us no farther than the kitchen table, but that’s a great place to give one’s testimony.
Deus Solus.
Age Quod Agis.**
P
Phemie
Guest
I didn’t hold a Bible until I was about 14 and was left alone in the church during at a 40-Hours Devotion one year. I knew I couldn’t leave the Blessed Sacrament alone and so, curious and feeling like a criminal, I went to get the big Bible that was enthroned in front of the ambo. I sat and opened it to Leviticus. Left the church that day a very confused young girl.
We never had a real Bible at home. Although there was prayer every day, the Bible was something that belonged to the priest and the religious as far as my parents were concerned. There was a very small book with some OT stories but it wasn’t for kids. Being a book fiend I of course devoured that one although I didn’t always understand what I was reading – though I must say I was probably the only Catholic kid in my school who knew the story of Absalom losing his life because of his hair and because of the back story I felt I was doing something wrong by reading it. I can still see the illustration that went with the story.
We never had a real Bible at home. Although there was prayer every day, the Bible was something that belonged to the priest and the religious as far as my parents were concerned. There was a very small book with some OT stories but it wasn’t for kids. Being a book fiend I of course devoured that one although I didn’t always understand what I was reading – though I must say I was probably the only Catholic kid in my school who knew the story of Absalom losing his life because of his hair and because of the back story I felt I was doing something wrong by reading it. I can still see the illustration that went with the story.
A
Adamski
Guest
Because we have disetent priests and sisters
Things I was told from 1982-1992 in a parish outside of Rochester ny
Things that Vatican 2 over turned According to my parish
Birth control is ok
There is no real presence in the Eucharist
Confession is a one time thing that doesn’t need repeating
All religions are equal we just have different paths to god
Abortion is a women’s choice
We only need to go to church if we want to
Marriage outside the church doesn’t matter
Thanks Rochester ny
Things I was told from 1982-1992 in a parish outside of Rochester ny
Things that Vatican 2 over turned According to my parish
Birth control is ok
There is no real presence in the Eucharist
Confession is a one time thing that doesn’t need repeating
All religions are equal we just have different paths to god
Abortion is a women’s choice
We only need to go to church if we want to
Marriage outside the church doesn’t matter
Thanks Rochester ny
H
haastiin
Guest
And there you have it. Travesty is easy when you leave God out of the formulary of Christian Doctrine. Those who perpetuate such self-serving bunkum already have their reward, but have not yet met their just judgment. The audacity to declare the Magisterium null and void in favor of one’s personal misconceptions makes for a very serious downfall. May God have pity on their souls.
G
Gordon_Sims
Guest
I bolded the things I was taught at one time or another from grade school to high school to pre-Cana. When I read Catholicism for Dummies a few years ago, it seemed like every few pages I read another jaw-dropper. I’ve read that we’re moving back toward more conservative priests, but I think we really need the more devout laity to help push priests in this direction. I hate when I hear a homily that stops short of telling people what they need to hear. Telling us that you reprinted someone else’s homily about birth control/abortion/the HHS mandate/etc. in the bulletin if fine, but you need to be saying those same things during your homilies. I think if enough people gave their priests positive feedback on these things, it might encourage them to challenge their parishioners with the truth a bit more often.
T
tskrobacz
Guest
The hand that points to the moon is not itself the moon…the Catholic Church is just one source (among many) of growing in Faith. You must be willing to take up your own cross and find Christ outside of organized religion if you are going to discover Christ everywhere and in all things. Do not look for or expect one stop shopping of anything of this world…you have to do the work!
W
WingsOfEagles
Guest
I think things are much different now than they were 60 years ago. I believe up through the 80s, the Church didn’t do the greatest job educating its members on what its beliefs were. However, with modern CCD, Youth Ministry, and Young Adult Groups, I as a 24 year feel that I have a pretty strong grasp on Church teaching. Of course, I am always learning, but I don’t feel in the dark by any means.
S
Seeker1961
Guest
Wow, I guess I was really lucky in grammar school, although if you had told me that then I would have told you to go to Confession for lying!
Our Pastor was a bit slow in implementing the changes of VII, in fact most of them didn’t get implemented until I was nearly in high school. So at our school we attended Mass every day at 7am, then went to our classrooms. Our religion text was the Baltimore Catechism and we all received Bibles in 4th grade. Not kiddie ones either, no pictures or watered down translations. We had Confession every Friday afternoon.
Now, a lot of years have passed since those days and I’ve been both a strong and a weak Catholic in those years. However, the roots that were planted didn’t die. When I recently returned to the Church after a 5 year absence the first thing I did was open up the Baltimore Catechism and re-read the familiar words.
I guess I’m naive, but if it worked then, why won’t it work now?
Our Pastor was a bit slow in implementing the changes of VII, in fact most of them didn’t get implemented until I was nearly in high school. So at our school we attended Mass every day at 7am, then went to our classrooms. Our religion text was the Baltimore Catechism and we all received Bibles in 4th grade. Not kiddie ones either, no pictures or watered down translations. We had Confession every Friday afternoon.
Now, a lot of years have passed since those days and I’ve been both a strong and a weak Catholic in those years. However, the roots that were planted didn’t die. When I recently returned to the Church after a 5 year absence the first thing I did was open up the Baltimore Catechism and re-read the familiar words.
I guess I’m naive, but if it worked then, why won’t it work now?
G
Geaux_LSU
Guest
Another thing I can’t stand about the the Church (It sounds like I’m ragging on the Church. God forbid, I love the Church! ) is that it seems to reduce the faith to mental assents, as opposed to a living and growing faith that leads people to Jesus. Don’t get me wrong, we NEED theology, but it seems that personal growth and spiritual development have taken a back seat to lectures on the HHS Mandate, NFP, Gay Marriage, IVF, etc.
And the scary thing is is that I wouldn’t have noticed if I didn’t come from a non-denominational church before I became Catholic. Sure, from a Catholic standpoint their doctrines weren’t in line 100%, but they sure did teach Catholic morals/spiritual growth better than the Church does. At least in the last 40 years…
) is that it seems to reduce the faith to mental assents, as opposed to a living and growing faith that leads people to Jesus. Don’t get me wrong, we NEED theology, but it seems that personal growth and spiritual development have taken a back seat to lectures on the HHS Mandate, NFP, Gay Marriage, IVF, etc.And the scary thing is is that I wouldn’t have noticed if I didn’t come from a non-denominational church before I became Catholic. Sure, from a Catholic standpoint their doctrines weren’t in line 100%, but they sure did teach Catholic morals/spiritual growth better than the Church does. At least in the last 40 years…
H
haastiin
Guest
That worries me a little. There is only one place, one person, one Christ and looking for Him “outside of organized religion” is a sort of sketchy thing to try. The subjectivity required to go find Jesus in the [whatever/wherever] is the beginning of the errors that have been cataloged and attributed to dissident priest in this conversation. The renewed alignment with Tradition and the Magisterium in the revisions of the Liturgy for English-speaking countries brought us only minor changes in syntax but no changes in content. We/I still believe in “one holy, catholic, and apostolic church.” But I believed in that as a child in a Presbyterian church in the '50s; I still believe it as an adult in an American Roman Catholic church. Religion is not jazz. Improvisational doctrine is how we get astonishing errors like those listed above. Christ is “everywhere and in all things” only when all things and everywhere are in Christ as an a prioricondition.
T
TrueLight
Guest
I understand what you mean. There is a strong emphasis on your 'walk with God/Christ" and you relationship with Christ.Another thing I can’t stand about the the Church (It sounds like I’m ragging on the Church. God forbid, I love the Church!
And the scary thing is is that I wouldn’t have noticed if I didn’t come from a non-denominational church before I became Catholic. Sure, from a Catholic standpoint their doctrines weren’t in line 100%, but they sure did teach Catholic morals/spiritual growth better than the Church does. At least in the last 40 years…
L
LatinCatholic1
Guest
5
57Bill
Guest
“Update” Okay, but that assumes that those parents and their parents and their parents…etc were properly or fully catechized. Something must have gone missing for generations. I was speaking with a seminarian recently and besides being a very, very knowledgeable and the best Catholic apologist I have ever met, he said it’s been the fault of the Church and will take a few generations (which I’d assume to be parents/families) to correct. This not from his mouth but from Bishops across the US.
5
57Bill
Guest
This is really great! :thumbsup:Many here might be interested in how this all came about!
What worked for your parish? What if anything did not work? Do you need a motivated pastor? What are essentials for success? Posting the process will help as much if not more than the fruits. JMO
- Status