Why Does the Catholic Church Teach Free Will?

[mjhudson]

My thanks for the continued response. I should clarify that not all Protestant’s hold Calvin’s view that all men are either destined for Hell or Heaven with no consideration of their will or merit. My own family never taught me this, and neither did my pastor. Those who hold it are generally “Reformed” churches.

I could never swallow the idea. I even had my best friend leave my church when our youth pastor began teaching Calvanistic doctrines (which ran contrary to our Pastor’s sermons.) The Catholic position is one of the reasons I began researching catholic beliefs. (A search, I should add, that has been eye opening and has given me more hope than all of my time in my Protestant church.)

 

[NeuralMonk]

Hi mjhudson,

Gladly. The verses seems to imply that only those drawn to the father can come to Christ, further implying that some are not. Is the Catholic position that all are drawn to Him, thus all are given the opportunity to respond?

John 6:44 (NIV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Sorry, but I don’t see the word only. Catholic teaching is that the Father draws all men to Himself but the only people who are raised up are those that come. This coincides with the Parable of the Marriage Feast where the king told his servants to go into the highways, byways and hedges and COMPELL them to come in.

I know the word which hangs you up is “unless”, but realize that this word is not excluding but providing a how. How do people come to Jesus? The Father draws them.

Lastly, and most important… This is the bread of life discourse. Continue reading this passage and explain what Jesus means by “come to me”? That will knock your socks off.

 

[mjhudson]

Hi mjhudson,

John 6:44 (NIV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Sorry, but I don’t see the word only. Catholic teaching is that the Father draws all men to Himself but the only people who are raised up are those that come. This coincides with the Parable of the Marriage Feast where the king told his servants to go into the highways, byways and hedges and COMPELL them to come in.

I know the word which hangs you up is “unless”, but realize that this word is not excluding but providing a how. How do people come to Jesus? The Father draws them.

Lastly, and most important… This is the bread of life discourse. Continue reading this passage and explain what Jesus means by “come to me”? That will knock your socks off.

In a Catholic (and early church, I’ve been reading up on the Church Fathers) context, the passage as a whole seems directed at the Eucharist. I’m finding it quite hard to read anything but a literal “eat my flesh and drink my blood” reading at this point.

It doesn’t quite settle my issue with the passages on Predestination, but Catholic theologians have been arguing about that for years. I think I can let it be a mystery how exactly God’s sovereignty and man’s will work together (as they must, or the bible becomes nonsensical.) Thank you for the response and for directing me to that passage.

 

[HelenRose]

Hi mjhudson,

John 6:44 (NIV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Sorry, but I don’t see the word only. Catholic teaching is that the Father draws all men to Himself but the only people who are raised up are those that come. This coincides with the Parable of the Marriage Feast where the king told his servants to go into the highways, byways and hedges and COMPELL them to come in.

I know the word which hangs you up is “unless”, but realize that this word is not excluding but providing a how. How do people come to Jesus? The Father draws them.

Lastly, and most important… This is the bread of life discourse. Continue reading this passage and explain what Jesus means by “come to me”? That will knock your socks off.

There are lots of words that don’t appear in the Bible that most Christians accept. Trinity is one. Also many non-Catholics use the term “faith only” but the only place those two words are found together is James 2:24.

Protestants often pick and choose to interpret literally the passages that suit them. The Church is the authority for me. She has been around 2,000 years. Most of the 32,000 plus Protestant denominations, with their different interpretations of the Bible, have been around less than 500 years and most of them less than 200 years.

 

[NeuralMonk]

In a Catholic (and early church, I’ve been reading up on the Church Fathers) context, the passage as a whole seems directed at the Eucharist. I’m finding it quite hard to read anything but a literal “eat my flesh and drink my blood” reading at this point.

Well what cinched it for me was how Jesus was inviting the twelve to leave him because He wasn’t backing down on the concept of eating His flesh. I mean, if after the disciples left, Jesus had stated, “Okay, now I will tell you what I meant…” that would be one thing, but He was encouraging the twelve to leave Him over this. John wanted to make sure we got that point.

It doesn’t quite settle my issue with the passages on Predestination, but Catholic theologians have been arguing about that for years. I think I can let it be a mystery how exactly God’s sovereignty and man’s will work together (as they must, or the bible becomes nonsensical.) Thank you for the response and for directing me to that passage.

Oh predestination… I just addressed that in another post.. But I will repeat it here…

Think of predestination as getting a ticket to ride the train. The designation of the train is fixed, and by getting the ticket, you are predestined to arrive at the destination. Baptism gives us the ticket and the other Sacraments help us keep the ticket clean and valid (and even help get tickets for others), but the choice to keep the ticket before the train comes is our choice. You won’t know if you are going to use the ticket until the train arrives. Everyone has a ticket on reserve from God, just not everyone gets their ticket, but some try to draw their ticket in crayon.

 

[mjhudson]

Well what cinched it for me was how Jesus was inviting the twelve to leave him because He wasn’t backing down on the concept of eating His flesh. I mean, if after the disciples left, Jesus had stated, “Okay, now I will tell you what I meant…” that would be one thing, but He was encouraging the twelve to leave Him over this. John wanted to make sure we got that point.

Oh predestination… I just addressed that in another post.. But I will repeat it here…

Think of predestination as getting a ticket to ride the train. The designation of the train is fixed, and by getting the ticket, you are predestined to arrive at the destination. Baptism gives us the ticket and the other Sacraments help us keep the ticket clean and valid (and even help get tickets for others), but the choice to keep the ticket before the train comes is our choice. You won’t know if you are going to use the ticket until the train arrives. Everyone has a ticket on reserve from God, just not everyone gets their ticket, but some try to draw their ticket in crayon.

That’s an odd analogy, but it makes sense. Catholic theology seems to harmonize incredibly well with the whole of scripture, even while leaving room for the mysteries involved in it. It’s been turning assumption after assumption I’ve had on it’s head, and the whole framework is much more coherent than what I was taught growing up.

 

[NeuralMonk]

That’s an odd analogy, but it makes sense.

Thanks for that complement. One of my other monikers used to be OddHeritic. That was before I realized my heresies in my Protestant faith were actually orthodoxy in my new Catholic faith.

 

[mjhudson]

Thanks for that complement. One of my other monikers used to be OddHeritic. That was before I realized my heresies in my Protestant faith were actually orthodoxy in my new Catholic faith.

Didn’t Chesterton say something very similar? He set out for Heresy and discovered Orthodoxy?

 

[Cathoholic]

Sorry it has taken me awhile to get back here mjhudson.

2nd PETER 3:9 was mentioned. Let’s look at the verse.

2nd PETER 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In post 5, porthos11 said:

QUOTE:
You may want to clarify why you feel being drawn by the Father is somehow contrary to free will.

You replied (emphasis mine):

QUOTE:
The verses seems to imply that only those drawn to the father can come to Christ, further implying that some are not.

OK.

The first part is correct in a sense (but I am not sure how you see it from 2nd PETER 3:9?).

QUOTE:
The verses seems to imply that only those drawn to the father can come to Christ

We DO NEED to be drawn by God to Him first.

This is called “God’s prevenient grace”. This just means God makes the first move towards us and not us toward Him (first).

The second part (which I will bold) doesn’t flow quite as true (parenthesis mine)

QUOTE:
The verses seems to imply that only those drawn to the father can come to Christ, further implying that some are not (drawn to the Father).

Think about that and look at the verse again.

2nd PETER 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Have you considered that when Jesus is raised up upon the Cross He will draw ALL men to Himself?

JOHN 12:31-33, 36 31 Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; 32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, **will draw ALL men to myself." **33 He said this to show by what death he was to die. . . . 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light."

The Holy Spirit does NOT say through St. John . . . .

NOT JOHN 12:32 (phantom verse) 32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw just some men to myself."

And have you considered WHY Jesus would urge them to believe if they had no free will?

If they were devoid of free will, you would expect Jesus to have said:

NOT JOHN 12:36 (phantom verse) 36 While you have the light, you will believe because I will puppet you to believe, that you may become sons of light."

We cannot love God without freely doing so.

If we were mere puppets for the Divine, we could never LOVE God. We could only be moved.

There IS Divine movement, but not ONLY Divine movement.

There is also our cooperation in the equation. That’s WHY St. Paul can say . . .

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

And not . . . .

NOT 2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 (Phantom verse) 1 Working together with him, then, we declare to you that you cannot accept the grace of God in vain.

 

[mjhudson]

2nd PETER 3:9 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

…

JOHN 12:31-33, 36 31 Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; 32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, **will draw ALL men to myself." **33 He said this to show by what death he was to die. . . . 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light."

The Holy Spirit does NOT say through St. John . . . .

NOT JOHN 12:32 (phantom verse) 32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw just some men to myself."

And have you considered WHY Jesus would urge them to believe if they had no free will?

If they were devoid of free will, you would expect Jesus to have said:

NOT JOHN 12:36 (phantom verse) 36 While you have the light, you will believe because I will puppet you to believe, that you may become sons of light."

…

There IS Divine movement, but not ONLY Divine movement.

There is also our cooperation in the equation. That’s WHY St. Paul can say . . .

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

And not . . . .

NOT 2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 (Phantom verse) 1 Working together with him, then, we declare to you that you cannot accept the grace of God in vain.

Well, when you lay it all out there like that the case seems pretty open and shut. I think I’m convinced, and my “reformed” friends have a lot to explain.

Thank you for taking the time to build an argument from the bible itself. Knowing that the idea of our response to God’s grace is clearly assumed in scripture, and even explicitly stated, is incredibly comforting.

 

[Cathoholic]

mjhudson. You said . . .

I think I’m convinced, and my “reformed” friends have a lot to explain.

Thank you for taking the time to build an argument from the bible itself.

First of all you are welcome.

But don’t be so fast to go to your “reformed” friends yet and question them (you will be ready to do that soon).

If you go and do that with ONLY the information I have given you thus far, they will go another layer deeper and cause confusion.

I’ll try to get to a computer later today (right now I am on an android device) and let you know what you may expect to hear back in retort and WHY that objection is not relevant either.

It has to do with free will, predestination, and mysteries.

 

[mjhudson]

mjhudson. You said . . .

First of all you are welcome.

But don’t be so fast to go to your “reformed” friends yet and question them (you will be ready to do that soon).

If you go and do that with ONLY the information I have given you thus far, they will go another layer deeper and cause confusion.

I’ll try to get to a computer later today (right now I am on an android device) and let you know what you may expect to hear back in retort and WHY that objection is not relevant either.

It has to do with free will, predestination, and mysteries.

Thank you, I look forward to your response.

 

[LPS]

Here are scriptures that make it clear to me that man has free will. Two are very similar and both come from Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 19:4-5
All because they have forsaken me and profaned this place by burning incense to other gods which neither they nor their ancestors knew; and because the kings of Judah have filled this place with innocent blood, building high places for Baal to burn their children in fire as offerings to Baal—something I never considered or said or commanded.

Jeremiah 32:35
They built high places to Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech; ***I never commanded them to do this, nor did it even enter my mind that they would practice this abomination, ***so as to bring sin upon Judah.

Also, free will is explicitly discussed in the book of Sirach. Here is a link to Sirach chapter 15; scroll down and read from verse 11 to end of chapter, noting verse 14.

 

[mjhudson]

Here are scriptures that make it clear to me that man has free will. Two are very similar and both come from Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 19:4-5
All because they have forsaken me and profaned this place by burning incense to other gods which neither they nor their ancestors knew; and because the kings of Judah have filled this place with innocent blood, building high places for Baal to burn their children in fire as offerings to Baal—something I never considered or said or commanded.

Jeremiah 32:35
They built high places to Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech; ***I never commanded them to do this, nor did it even enter my mind that they would practice this abomination, ***so as to bring sin upon Judah.

Also, free will is explicitly discussed in the book of Sirach. Here is a link to Sirach chapter 15; scroll down and read from verse 11 to end of chapter, noting verse 14.

So, before the Reformation, the bible explicitly stated that we had free will. The book that contained this statement just happened to not be included after the Reformation? Considering everything I’ve read lately about Luther wanting to put James’ troublesome “Works are necessary for salvation” stuff in an appendix and having trouble making the bible work with his theology, the Reformation is not looking as bright and positive as I taught it was as a kid.

 

[Cathoholic]

Here is what I am going to say later (but I’ll expound on it later too) . . .

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What Catholics Do NOT Teach

Catholics do NOT teach “Predestination” in the “Puppet Show” sense.

The Catholic Church condemns the “double-predestination” scheme of things.

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Mysteries Exist

There are truths that can be seen to conform to reason (2 + 2 = 4 is an example).

There are Truths that are ABOVE reason that the human mind in this world CAN explore, but NEVER attain to the full depths.

Examples would be God’s omniscience. Another example is Jesus Christ True God AND True man (HOW could God take Mary’s human flesh to Himself?).

And there are falsehoods which when examined close enough are proposals which go AGAINST reason.

• Truth = Consistent With Reason
• Mysteries = Above (not against) Human Reason
• Falsehood = Goes Against Reason

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Free Will

The Catholic Church teaches and affirms free will.

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Predestination

The Catholic Church teaches and affirms Predestination (in a true sense not a false sense).

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Double Predestination

“Double predestination” is what the objectors will call “predestination.”

The Catholic Church condemns the concept of “double predestination.”

Double predestination is taught NOWHERE in Scripture (explicitly or implicitly).

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The (Wrong) Objection You Will Face

Here is what you will be told by some Protestants to attempt to attack the Catholic faith

These people when they talk to Catholics make a big deal about “predestination”.

They call this “predestination” (but they really mean “double predestination”).

They will cite verses that discuss “predestination”.

Then they ask you to show them verses that EXPLICITLY talk of “free will”.

They will object saying something to the effect of: “We ‘believers’ believe the Bible and how it explicitly talks about predestination."

You Catholics (or “Those Catholics”) on the other hand, DENY predestination and assert “free will” instead.

(Don’t accept this false premise)

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What Catholics REALLY Believe Concerning Predestination And Free Will

Catholics affirm BOTH predestination (in its correct sense) AND free will!

HOW can you have BOTH predestination AND free will? We don’t know. It’s a mystery.

We DON’T DENY any verses. We as Catholics do not “deny” predestination”.

(It is those people, who DENY free will).

The Catholics affirm the FULL GOSPEL.

---

I’ll expound on these above points in a later post.

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MATTHEW 23:37 (NIV) 37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

 

[porthos11]

What Catholics REALLY Believe Concerning Predestination And Free Will

Catholics affirm BOTH predestination (in its correct sense) AND free will!

HOW can you have BOTH predestination AND free will? We don’t know. It’s a mystery.

We DON’T DENY any verses. We as Catholics do not “deny” predestination”.

(It is those people, who DENY free will).

The Catholics affirm the FULL GOSPEL.

And yet, you will see many Catholics on this forum alone who, in their zeal to defend free will, will indeed deny predestination (even the orthodox sense, i.e. conditioned or unconditioned predestination to glory), and/or its property of immutability. Dont’ even get me started on reprobation.

But you are correct. In fact, predestination is part of the deposit of faith and cannot be denied.