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NowHereThis
Guest
Thanks for any light you can shed on this subject!
Why does the Catholic church teach that God creates every human soul ex nihilo?
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pianistclare
Guest
What do you think he made it out of then?
If we are 100% unique, what other mthod is there?
If we are 100% unique, what other mthod is there?
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NowHereThis
Guest
Souls and bodies could come from the souls and bodies of their parents, couldn’t they?
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pianistclare
Guest
No. We only have one soul and we dont’ create souls from tissue.
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NowHereThis
Guest
Indeed, one soul that is a unique combination of the parent souls, just as there would be one body, a unique combination of the parent’s bodies.
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pianistclare
Guest
No. This is impossible. For we are not responsible for the sin of anyone else. God judges us indiviually on the last day. Not as a group.
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NowHereThis
Guest
If we’re talking about a unique combination, where does the idea that we’re responsible for a different combination’s sin come from?
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Would you re-state this question, please?
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ErraticFaith
Guest
Ugh is this a closet version of those threads that imply the body and soul are the same thing, or an element of the mind? 
If you were personally responsible for the sins of everyone before you, you’d need more than one life time sorting through that mess.
Your life’s journey is just yours alone. With judgement at the end.
Who knows what God forges souls out of. None of our business I’m sure.
Your parents genetic material is responsible for your physical self. God is responsible for your underlying soul that is fused to it.
You are very much ‘you’ with a sprinkle of imparted wisdom and knowledge from your folks that has very little to do with your spiritual determination.
If you were personally responsible for the sins of everyone before you, you’d need more than one life time sorting through that mess.
Your life’s journey is just yours alone. With judgement at the end.
Who knows what God forges souls out of. None of our business I’m sure.
Your parents genetic material is responsible for your physical self. God is responsible for your underlying soul that is fused to it.
You are very much ‘you’ with a sprinkle of imparted wisdom and knowledge from your folks that has very little to do with your spiritual determination.
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NowHereThis
Guest
Sure. My understanding is that the Catholic church teaches that God creates souls individually out of nothing. My question is why does the church think this is true?
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NowHereThis
Guest
But it’s not just that it’s “none of our business”. Doesn’t the church teach explicitly that the answer is not “formed out of some unknown thing” but “out of nothing.”
As far as closets go, it might accidentally be that, since I didn’t know anything about those threads.
As far as closets go, it might accidentally be that, since I didn’t know anything about those threads.
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worldwideweary
Guest
Friendly Observation -
No creature can produce something from nothing, it would be a divine act to do so.
2 Maccabees 7:28 can be considered to be related here -
“I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things.* In the same way humankind came into existence.”
Aside Observation:
If it were taught that man is created from God as from God and not ex nihilo, from nothing, it would seem to belittle the dogmatic teaching that the second person of the tri-personal God is consubstantial from the ungenerated first-person and hence raise a hairy issue for Christians trying to differentiate this concept of consubstantiality with their very own substance as related to God. It makes for a stronger separation in attributing from nothing to creatures, and by doing so it grants exclusive consubstantiality to the second and third persons who come or are sent to dwell with man rather than man already being this way as a primal condition. To not attribute ex-nihilo to man might seem also to belittle the teaching that baptism is adoptive in its function.
No creature can produce something from nothing, it would be a divine act to do so.
2 Maccabees 7:28 can be considered to be related here -
“I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things.* In the same way humankind came into existence.”
Aside Observation:
If it were taught that man is created from God as from God and not ex nihilo, from nothing, it would seem to belittle the dogmatic teaching that the second person of the tri-personal God is consubstantial from the ungenerated first-person and hence raise a hairy issue for Christians trying to differentiate this concept of consubstantiality with their very own substance as related to God. It makes for a stronger separation in attributing from nothing to creatures, and by doing so it grants exclusive consubstantiality to the second and third persons who come or are sent to dwell with man rather than man already being this way as a primal condition. To not attribute ex-nihilo to man might seem also to belittle the teaching that baptism is adoptive in its function.
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NowHereThis
Guest
That was sincerely interesting and helpful, but what about the whole “human souls from other human souls” possibility I mentioned above? It isn’t covered in either of your options.
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worldwideweary
Guest
The response was merely taking into consideration the original topic’s question and not the rest of the conversations, so thanks for bringing that up again. Looking at the rest of the thread, it seems that you’re asking why the Church doesn’t teach man’s soul to be an off-shoot of man rather than created by God directly as with the first man. Interesting question. Apparently there’s a word for this: traducianism.
There is a “Catholic Encylopedia” article entry at (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15014a.htm) regarding the topic, though it may not satiate your inquiry. It would seem appropriate for whomever inquiring about this topic to spend some time following through the article and its provided links. I will disregard my own personal explanation–you didn’t ask for it of course.
Take care.
P.S. The question would seem to raise an issue regarding the Immaculate Conception and Jesus’ humanity, but that’s another topic.
P.P.S A final – until next time – friendly observation:
Take that famous passage of “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.” It might be worth meditating on the divine act of knowing a creature before being formed in the womb and ask how this possibly could be, especially if one were to entertain the soul’s coming to be as the result of generative womb formation rather than divine creation.
There is a “Catholic Encylopedia” article entry at (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15014a.htm) regarding the topic, though it may not satiate your inquiry. It would seem appropriate for whomever inquiring about this topic to spend some time following through the article and its provided links. I will disregard my own personal explanation–you didn’t ask for it of course.
Take care.
P.S. The question would seem to raise an issue regarding the Immaculate Conception and Jesus’ humanity, but that’s another topic.
P.P.S A final – until next time – friendly observation:
Take that famous passage of “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.” It might be worth meditating on the divine act of knowing a creature before being formed in the womb and ask how this possibly could be, especially if one were to entertain the soul’s coming to be as the result of generative womb formation rather than divine creation.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Sorry, I was not clear. This is the question that I do not understand.
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BlackFriar
Guest
Don’t forget that some genes get switched on or off by the environment as well!
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BlackFriar
Guest
What other soul possibilities do you think there are and why?
How can a non material soul create a non material soul? They cannot split in half or produce haploid gametes. That requires matter.
The souls of animals are “material” in so far as they are a principle inherent in the organised matter of such animals. When the matter loses its organisation the soul has ceased. When it gains its organisation the soul begins. Humans are not like animals re their souls.
How can a non material soul create a non material soul? They cannot split in half or produce haploid gametes. That requires matter.
The souls of animals are “material” in so far as they are a principle inherent in the organised matter of such animals. When the matter loses its organisation the soul has ceased. When it gains its organisation the soul begins. Humans are not like animals re their souls.
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Gorgias
Guest
Souls aren’t physical. Moreover, they don’t consist of parts. Therefore, creating them “from something” doesn’t make sense.
No: “it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment” – Hebrews 9:27.
No, on two counts:
- souls aren’t “combined”, as in “made up of parts”
- the Church teaches that souls are created “immediately” by God. We can take that to mean “without mediation” – that is, without the help of anyone (like, as in, parents)
We’re not. “Original sin” isn’t personal sin, but rather, is only sin by way of analogy. From the Catechism, #404:
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Zaccheus
Guest
Because God has told us so.
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Usige
Guest
The Church has condemned the idea that souls are naturally generated from our parents for 18 centuries. Whether we are talking about Tertullian’s idea of traducianism or Apollinarism each speaks to man being self generative just like animals, but man is not like animals. In fact we are are like no other creature corporeal or spiritual precisely because man is both.
You need to simple go back to the second creation story to understand that it is God who imparts our souls. When God fashions man from the dust, this is an allegory that speaks to our physical being, but it was only upon him imparting life through his breath that man was truly alive. It is out of the dust of the earth and the breath of God that mans nature is built.
It was not a singular act for God to “jump start” mankind, but is rather the on going process whereby God imparts our souls as an act of love for his cherished children. It is one of the reasons that we refer to the Holy Spirit as the “giver of life” in the Nicaean Creed.
What are some of the arguments against natural generation of the soul?
Ecclesiastes 12
“… the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”
Wisdom 15:10-11
“His heart is ashes, his hope is cheaper than dirt, and his life is of less worth than clay, because he failed to know the one who formed him and inspired him with an active soul and breathed into him a living spirit.”
Hebrews 12:9
“Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?”
Romans 4:17
“… God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.”
You need to simple go back to the second creation story to understand that it is God who imparts our souls. When God fashions man from the dust, this is an allegory that speaks to our physical being, but it was only upon him imparting life through his breath that man was truly alive. It is out of the dust of the earth and the breath of God that mans nature is built.
It was not a singular act for God to “jump start” mankind, but is rather the on going process whereby God imparts our souls as an act of love for his cherished children. It is one of the reasons that we refer to the Holy Spirit as the “giver of life” in the Nicaean Creed.
What are some of the arguments against natural generation of the soul?
Ecclesiastes 12
“… the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”
Wisdom 15:10-11
“His heart is ashes, his hope is cheaper than dirt, and his life is of less worth than clay, because he failed to know the one who formed him and inspired him with an active soul and breathed into him a living spirit.”
Hebrews 12:9
“Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?”
Romans 4:17
“… God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.”
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