Why Does the Church Do Such a Lousy Job?

[guanophore]

Regarding your last point, there are many OSAS threads around the Forum. There is a gift of perseverance also that Catholics refer to, and you might be surprised at what Aquinas said about predestination.

I use the term “pesudo-Catholic” to express where I am at. I am currently comparing Augustine, Calvin and Aquinas to see who the true heir of Augustine is - Calvin or Aquinas, the reformer or the Catholic saint. I am not Catholic but I am a lot closer to Catholicism than anything else.

A good thread might be to ask the question, “If the Catholic Church has truth, and is empowered by God to teach truth, then why does it do such a lousy job?”

your wish is granted, Truthstalker. I don’ t think the Church does a lousy job, by that I mean the Pope, the Magisterium, the Catechism, etc. However, as I have said elsewhere, a lot seems to get lost at the parish and individual level. Father Corapi has been a great inspiration and blessing for me. I wish we had a Corapi in every parish!

I didn’t say we must look to Rome for authority. But an argument could be made that we each have a final authority on earth, one we defer to in all things. For some Protestants, that is themselves, or their pastor, or a favorite author; for Orthodox, I suppose some bishop, for Catholics the pope, for some scientific types, Carl Sagan or one of his pseudo-intellectual descendents, such as Dawkins. If you asked me if I had a better source of earthly authority than the Church, I would say I don’t know. If you ask me why I am not Catholic, I have no good reasons. I started studying Catholicism because someone I know converted to Catholicism, and I wanted to show him his error by showing what they REALLY teach. It has been a strange journey.

So, my question for you is, what type of instruction would benefit you the most?

 

[Truthstalker]

your wish is granted, Truthstalker. I don’ t think the Church does a lousy job, by that I mean the Pope, the Magisterium, the Catechism, etc. However, as I have said elsewhere, a lot seems to get lost at the parish and individual level. Father Corapi has been a great inspiration and blessing for me. I wish we had a Corapi in every parish!

So, my question for you is, what type of instruction would benefit you the most?

Well, I’m slowly going through Summa T., Calvin and the Catechism and Aquinas.

So why does the church do such a lousy job at the local level? Why are heretics and liberals teaching RCIA?

 

[dylanschrader]

Well, I’m slowly going through Summa T., Calvin and the Catechism and Aquinas.

So why does the church do such a lousy job at the local level? Why are heretics and liberals teaching RCIA?

Sadly because being in the Church does not guarantee that one’s communion with the Church isn’t wounded through disobedience, dissent, lack of charity, sin, etc. Every sin is a testimony against the truth of the Gospel. If it depended on men to teach the truth, the Church would have officially taught error and abandoned the truth centuries ago. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit protects the magisterium from error.

 

[Truthstalker]

Sadly because being in the Church does not guarantee that one’s communion with the Church isn’t wounded through disobedience, dissent, lack of charity, sin, etc. Every sin is a testimony against the truth of the Gospel. If it depended on men to teach the truth, the Church would have officially taught error and abandoned the truth centuries ago. Thankfully, the Holy Spirit protects the magisterium from error.

And why would the magisterium be protected but that protection is sadly missing where most needed: in the local church and in the lives of individual Catholics?

 

[dbacks5439]

And why would the magisterium be protected but that protection is sadly missing where most needed: in the local church and in the lives of individual Catholics?

Free Will

 

[dylanschrader]

And why would the magisterium be protected but that protection is sadly missing where most needed: in the local church and in the lives of individual Catholics?

Because Christ chose to use the apostles and their successors to preach the truth to all nations. Thus, the college of bishops united throughout the world or in a council is infallible–the ordinary, universal magisterium.

Individuals, except for the pope by virtue of his office as the successor to St. Peter who in a unique way can act on behalf of the whole college of apostles in his person because he is their head, are not infallible.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I’ve often suspected that it is a scheme to prove the Divine basis for the Church. No purely human organization could do so badly and still survive.

 

[Truthstalker]

Free Will

Not a good argument: God uses free will for His purposes; He intends for the message of the Gospel to go everywhere; why would it be particularly lacking among some of His people?

 

[Truthstalker]

I’ve often suspected that it is a scheme to prove the Divine basis for the Church. No purely human organization could do so badly and still survive.

I’ve used that argument several times and is one reason I take the Catholic Church seriously. Anything else would have self-destructed. God must somehow be involved.

 

[junk]

So why does the church do such a lousy job at the local level? Why are heretics and liberals teaching RCIA?

Over the the last century or so, a wide assortment of liberal/modernist heresies have proliferated. In fact, there’s so many to pick and choose from, one can be a cafeteria heretic. Still, in the early centuries, much of the Church was swallowed up by the Arian heresy - apparently the vast majority of priests and bishops were heretics. It looks like history has repeated itself. Nothing new under the sun.

Truthstalker:

And why would the magisterium be protected but that protection is sadly missing where most needed: in the local church and in the lives of individual Catholics?

God’s will is to permit it, for His purposes. The local churches and individual Catholics in the first centuries of Christianity were not protected from widespread heresy either. People will always be proud and resist authority, but God’s purpose is being fulfilled nonetheless, despite human weaknesses. Catholics also don’t have the liberty to split and set up their own church. If Christ doesn’t yet return, the Church will still be here a millennium from now and the heresies of today will be confined to history, while the Church herself will be struggling with other challenges, be they internal or external, or like today - both. The gates of hell will never prevail, however.

 

[Truthstalker]

So why is the Magisterium the only thing that is protected? Can an individual Catholic trust God to guide him, or trust his pastor or bishop, either of which might go astray? Certainly I can’t trust an RCIA teacher, or anyone else in the church to get it right. That is what you are saying: the only ones who are trustworthy are the Magisterium. Don’t trust anybody else.

This is very similar to Protestants and “trust nothing but the Bible.”

 

[Viki59]

The Magisterium has given us the Catechism, which is a sure norm, according to his Holiness the Pope.
So you can trust anyone who teaches what the Catechism teaches. For example, Fr Corapi is pretty reliable as a guide.

 

[llowwelll]

I’ve wondered this many times myself. I agree that the Church, on a parish and individual level does a truly horrible job. I attended eight years of Catholic primary school and learned very little about why Catholics believe what they believe. I did not even begin to understand the concept of true Christianity until I began to be confronted by Protestant anti-Catholics when I was in college. This forced me to begin to research and learn about my faith. At that time, I discovered that the Church does contain the Truth of God. However, I would never have discovered this had I relied on the priests and lay leadership. So many of them are filled with deception. Many, for example, believe that we, as Catholics, actually do pray TO Mary. Many have no idea what the true meaning of the Eucharist is or why we do it.

The only way I can think to explain it is that since the Catholic Church is the one, true church of God, that it is under special attack by Satan. Satan has targeted the Church for destruction, though we know that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. However, that does not mean that Satan will not inflict serious damage upon the Church. He has and will continue to do so. Here is a selection of Bible verses which I believe relate to this idea:

1 Timothy 3:1-7:
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 7:21-23:
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Collosians 2:8:
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

 

[DallasCatholic]

I’m reminded of Ercole Cardinal Consalvi’s response when he heard Napoleon say “I will destroy your Church”.

“He will never succeed. We have not managed to do it ourselves!”

I think a big reason is why there are so many dissenters in the Church now is because Heresy is no longer a big deal. Since the reformation the stigma has lost it’s impact. Plus we don’t kill the heretics anymore

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Magisterium has given us the Catechism, which is a sure norm, according to his Holiness the Pope.
So you can trust anyone who teaches what the Catechism teaches. For example, Fr Corapi is pretty reliable as a guide.

Thank God for Fr. Corapi. We need priest like him more.

 

[jmcrae]

Why are heretics and liberals teaching RCIA?

I guess I must be a heretic and a liberal, because I teach RCIA.

If they are (and that’s not my experience, personally) it’s because those who know the faith well aren’t stepping up to the plate and volunteering their services.

I know lots of people at our parish who think that the RCIA candidates should be learning the Baltimore Catechism, but if you ask them which night of the week they will teach it, they say, 'Ooooh, noooo, I’m too busy," or whatever.

So, you get the volunteers who will come, and they teach the Catechism that makes the most sense to them.

But I don’t think there are any heretical Catechisms out there (unless they are using something that is actually non-Catholic, which I suppose could happen, though I think the participants would probably complain pretty loudly if that ever happened) and I think that what some people call “heresy” is just a clash of styles - the “wrong” style of music being played when they come in, or asking discussion-starter questions instead of playing “Inquisitor,” or whatever.