Why does the church say its wrong to force its views on others when we try to force our views on abortion and contraception on everybody?

[benjammin]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this. What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian. Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views? Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

 

[Swiss_Guy]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this. What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian.

We have an obligation to defend life. Because abortion is murder, the government has a responsibility to enforce penalties for committing an abortion. It’s not about forcing beliefs on others; it’s about defending human life.

Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views? Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

It’s wrong to force people to become Catholic because to become Catholic requires the use of our free will to love God. We can’t force others to love God, because then they would be Catholic out of fear and not love. That is contrary to God’s will. Your third sentence in the above quote IS something we should work for; nations that respect God’s laws, and nations that do what they can to help get people to heaven. We do try to save all people for Christ. That’s the purpose of the Gospel.

 

[fix]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this. What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian. Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views? Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

You may as well ask why have laws against murder and arson too? Is that “forcing” Catholic teaching on others too?

 

[Brendan]

Generally, Catholics hold to objective truth.

Does anyone believe that Physicists are the ones responsible for inflicting the Law of Gravity on us? Or are they simply telling us what is and how bad it would be if ignored them.

Or if an engineer promotes safe building codes because the alternative is the house or bridge collapsing around innocent people. Is that engineer somehow guilty for forcing his beliefs on others?

Now take the case of someone trying to force that Physicist to push down those nuclear fule rods with his bear hands, or trying to force that engineer to drive his family across a bridge that he knows will collapse.

Here we have the case of the engineer and physicist trying to convey laws on how the universe works. They are not trying to ‘force’ others to believe that E=mc2 or that you can’t build an interstate bridge over a river with a dozen 2x4’s. And they would have EVERY right to obejct if someone was forcing them to do what is clearly against the physical laws.

The Church teaches an absolute moral Law, not simply it’s opinion. It is just as much a law of the universe as E=MC2 or that Ke=1/2mv2. In fact even more so, as the physical creation is transitory, the Moral Law is not.

The Church is teaching what is right and true and has every right to object when forced to engage in falsehood.

 

[Brendan]

Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views

This comment deserves special attention.

It is wrong to ‘force’ people to recant sinful views and accept the teaching of the Church because it is actually an impossible task.

In much the same way that you cannot program a computer to love a tree. It is love if it’s just following a set of instructions. And it’s not a conversion of heart if there is no change in heart.

And that is something that cannot be forced.

There is no wrong is requiring someone to learn about Catholic theology, in the same way that there is no wrong is requiring student to study reading and mathematics.

But what IS wrong is any attempt to force Faith. It is a free Gift from God that must be freely accepted. Where there is no freedom, there is no Love and thus no acceptance of God.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this. What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian. Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views? Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

We are supposed to evangelize. We just can’t do it directly through a government, because our Lord Jesus Christ isn’t King of this world, but of the next.

And we are not “forcing our Catholic beliefs” on people. We follow GOD’S laws, remember?? We just remind people that they too, have the obligation to follow God’s laws.

 

[R_C]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this.

Just a warning: a Latin proverb says: "excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta Your post is far from giving that impression, so there was no need for that disclaimer.

What i am asking is why do people (and the Church …] say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people

It’s slightly more complicated. We have a duty to evangelize. To uphold the truth regardless of the time. Since we know what life is and we see it horrendously desecrated, it is our duty as salt of the earth to let people know what’s going on, just like Christ, confronted about divorce, told the teachers of the Law something the people could not have known: “in the beginning it was not so”. This is what we do, imitating the good Lord.

Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views?

Simply because Christ did not do this, or in general God did not do this, so His bride, Holy Church, cannot do it either. Remember what Christ endured for our sake? He endured so much sorrow because he did not want to force people. Why? Because His infinite, ineffable wisdom discerned that it was the best course of action, and our finite, sinful minds could never possibly understand the fullness of His divine thoughts. So I don’t know why is it wrong - I know some reasons, sure, but not the whole of it - and yet it suffices for me to do what Christ told us to do.

 

[buffalo]

Catholicism is a proposition.

 

[3DOCTORS]

We have an obligation to defend life. Because abortion is murder, the government has a responsibility to enforce penalties for committing an abortion. It’s not about forcing beliefs on others; it’s about defending human life.

It’s wrong to force people to become Catholic because to become Catholic requires the use of our free will to love God. We can’t force others to love God, because then they would be Catholic out of fear and not love. That is contrary to God’s will. Your third sentence in the above quote IS something we should work for; nations that respect God’s laws, and nations that do what they can to help get people to heaven. We do try to save all people for Christ. That’s the purpose of the Gospel.

Nice summary - simple and to the point on both issues!

 

[JRKH]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this.

Clear enough……Lets have at it.

What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian.
In what way are we “trying to force our beliefs on people”? Think carefully and provide examples…
In asking that question it is important to consider carefully…In what way are we acting substantially different than any other group seeking to effect government policy? What makes the actions, marching, fundraising, picketing, letter writing, etc. etc. etc. any different than what these other groups wish to do?

The bottom line is that there is NO - NONE - ZERO differences. We are American citizens with the same rights as anyone else to organize and to petition the government for redress of grievances.
Those who try to play the “force you beliefs on others” card are simply trying to trick their opposition into withdrawing. It ain’t gonna work.
When they play that card on you…toss it back…ask them - are they trying to "force their beliefs? Or are they legally petitioning the government?

Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views?

Because you can no more force someone to “be Catholic” than you can force a criminal to reform his ways. It’s either made as a free choice or not made at all.

Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

Actually we SHOULD work for this. Not in the sense of making the Government a theocracy, but certainly in seeking to promote a government that is moral and upright in it’s governance.

Peace
James

 

[edwest2]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this. What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian. Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views? Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

Where is the force you speak of? The Catholic proposition is simply that - a proposition. If examined carefully, it works, both on a Catholic and non-Catholic level.

Abortion. What is being aborted? A human being. If not, then what is it? We all began life as human embryos. Ask any embryologist. Take any doctor, and regardless of his beliefs, the moment a pregnant mother comes to him, he counsels her about how to take care of herself and the genetically unique baby growing inside her.

Pope John Paul II said that forcing our religion on others is forbidden. We can’t force others to convert.

Is voting force? Everyone votes for what they want. Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Pastafarian. What informs your voting choices?

God will not force us to love Him and neither will the Church. I guarantee that if you miss Mass on Sunday, a priest will not be pounding on your door Monday demanding to know where you were and demanding 5 bucks.

Peace,
Ed

 

[benjammin]

Where is the force you speak of? The Catholic proposition is simply that - a proposition. If examined carefully, it works, both on a Catholic and non-Catholic level.

Abortion. What is being aborted? A human being. If not, then what is it? We all began life as human embryos. Ask any embryologist. Take any doctor, and regardless of his beliefs, the moment a pregnant mother comes to him, he counsels her about how to take care of herself and the genetically unique baby growing inside her.

Pope John Paul II said that forcing our religion on others is forbidden. We can’t force others to convert.

Is voting force? Everyone votes for what they want. Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Pastafarian. What informs your voting choices?

God will not force us to love Him and neither will the Church. I guarantee that if you miss Mass on Sunday, a priest will not be pounding on your door Monday demanding to know where you were and demanding 5 bucks.

Peace,
Ed

I would actually love it if a priest showed up if i missed mass. It would show he cared, although I’m not a big fan of the $5

 

[Edward_H]

We need to defend the truth, the good, and freedom. We can defend the lives of others…we must…it’s not an option but a sacred duty.

But we can’t do violence to someone’s will when it comes to their relationship with God.

 

[martinah]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this. What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian. Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views? Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

I think others have said this, but it is good to be clear on this matter; On abortion we are not trying to force our views on anyone, we are trying to correct and prevent serious and grievous errors. We are trying to correct the view that not all human life is dignified and worthy of protection because it is a serious matter that has consequences far beyond abortion (although abortion is a good enough reason all by itself, IMO). We are also trying to prevent the loss of life, as it is a sin to kill and, again, the consequences of deliberately taking another life has consequences beyond just the death of the intended target; murder affects the victim, the taker of life, all his/her facilitators, and the community as a whole. As followers of Christ, we are instructed to, with kindness, help others; correcting and preventing those who are at risk to do something that is seriously harmful to themselves and others is something that we are mandated to do.

As for the rest of your question, I think it comes down to love. God wants us to love him and he wants us to do so freely, as love is not possible if it is not given freely. You cannot coerce someone into loving you. Even if they do “love” you in their actions, chances are that the love that they have for you is not deep, abiding love. Also, the act of coercion itself is not loving.

 

[Bill_7154]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this. What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian. Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views? Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

Because there will be a fight between all religions until there is one winner and tons of bloodshed, before it’s decided which religion will rule.

 

[manualman]

Obviously there is a point in which we must draw the line and say that the state holds an obligation to back up morality with civil law. To claim otherwise is to be an anarchist and allow people to commit murder, robbery, rape, etc while the state stands by uninterested. Stating that these are wrong is a MORAL statement. All laws, in fact, are based on moral principles.

What the church does do is to divide moral truths that are evident via natural law form truths that have been given to us by divine revelation. The former are binding on all men and it is appropriate for the state to use force to compell compliance. The latter must be consented to freely.

This principle requires that we separate issues into these two categories and that involves arguments. Objectively, there is nothing about Sunday that would require it to be illegal to work that day or to attend a mass. But abortion objectively DOES end a human being’s life. It’s not a matter of revelation to say that this is a crime, but of natural law. Some refuse to admit it, but it’s true.

See the difference?

 

[Edward_H]

ManualMan

Obviously there is a point in which we must draw the line and say that the state holds an obligation to back up morality with civil law. To claim otherwise is to be an anarchist and allow people to commit murder, robbery, rape, etc while the state stands by uninterested. Stating that these are wrong is a MORAL statement. All laws, in fact, are based on moral principles.

What the church does do is to divide moral truths that are evident via natural law form truths that have been given to us by divine revelation. The former are binding on all men and it is appropriate for the state to use force to compell compliance. The latter must be consented to freely.

This principle requires that we separate issues into these two categories and that involves arguments. Objectively, there is nothing about Sunday that would require it to be illegal to work that day or to attend a mass. But abortion objectively DOES end a human being’s life. It’s not a matter of revelation to say that this is a crime, but of natural law. Some refuse to admit it, but it’s true.

See the difference?

 

[martinah]

Obviously there is a point in which we must draw the line and say that the state holds an obligation to back up morality with civil law. To claim otherwise is to be an anarchist and allow people to commit murder, robbery, rape, etc while the state stands by uninterested. Stating that these are wrong is a MORAL statement. All laws, in fact, are based on moral principles.

What the church does do is to divide moral truths that are evident via natural law form truths that have been given to us by divine revelation. The former are binding on all men and it is appropriate for the state to use force to compell compliance. The latter must be consented to freely.

This principle requires that we separate issues into these two categories and that involves arguments. Objectively, there is nothing about Sunday that would require it to be illegal to work that day or to attend a mass. But abortion objectively DOES end a human being’s life. It’s not a matter of revelation to say that this is a crime, but of natural law. Some refuse to admit it, but it’s true.

See the difference?

 

[Sarcelle]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this. What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian. Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views? Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

Faithful Catholics are proposing that people take a look at a certain discrepancy. There exists a law in this land that makes homicide illegal. The Catholic church and by extension, faithful Catholics consider unborn babies as human and therefore should be under the protection of the law that criminalizes homicide. In some cases, the law already does that. For example you can look up the Lacey Peterson case where her husband was charged not only for her murder but for the murder of their unborn son. In some cases, when a mother goes to an abortion clinic and kills her unborn baby, this is considered a right. This is the discrepancy and the conclusion is that a another human can arbitrarily declare another human as not human. Such is the case with slavery. Either the law considers the unborn as not being human or considers them all human. From the above examples this is not the case. Why the disconnect?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

First of all, don’t think i’m some pro choice cafeteria catholic trying to say the church shouldn’t stand up and be pro life or something crazy like this. What i am asking is why do people (and the Church, though i admit I need a source, and if there isn’t something from the church that says this, than I guess my argument falls short) say that we can’t force our Catholic beliefs on people, yet, as Catholics we try to force our pro life views on people by trying to work for governments that are pro life, even though not all people are Catholic or even Christian. Why not go further? Why is it wrong to force people to become Catholic and recant their sinful views? Why shouldn’t we work for a government where the Church is supreme and its laws are the laws of our nations. If Christ is Lord of all, shouldn’t he be our ruler on earth as well as in heaven? I understand there is the whole free will thing, but shouldn’t we try to save all people for Christ?

Catholicism does not force it’s beliefs on anyone. But we as Catholics have an obligation to speak the truth, and act in accordance with it. Thus, we support laws that promote the truth, and oppose laws that are inconsistent with truth. The Church (at least in America) does not have the authority to “force” laws on anyone. But as Catholics we have the right to participate in the political process, to contribute to a society that we believe should be rooted in the truth. I do not see how participating in the political process as a Catholic is “forcing” anything on anyone. Do you have a specific instance of Catholics “forcing” their views on people that is troubling you?

Peace,
Robert