Why does the Church support the welfare state?

[nordskoven]

Just had a long talk with friend who has a Salvation Army facility across the alley. Solution to the druggie/junkie/alkie children-having-children repulsive cretin miscreants? Abortion! Kinda like Swift with his (parody) solution to the Irish starving to death: eat the babies! And this is somebody who delivers heavy sacks of bread to a food kitchen for charity and chats up a schizophrenic who has literally never had a friend and disdains eating meat and is otherwise a sensitive soul. So, first praying then working:

LORD, if You would, delay and repair the hardness of hearts that You prophesied and deliver us from the world, the flesh and the devil. Break this cycle of addiction and drug dealing and poverty and violence and ignorance and self-indulgence and pride and love of illegal money and fancy shoes and cellphones and predation and hatred of honest work and children at-risk, born and unborn whether in politicians, bureaucrats, religious or their clientele. Grant us a hunger for the Way, Truth & Life and sate us with Your presence in our hearts and grant us elegant solutions and wise deeds, all for Your honor and glory. AMEN

 

[pnewton]

Would it be possible for the OP to link something on either this initiative or the response of the Catholic Church in the area to to this initiative? It is hard to know if it is prudent without the details.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Those are all secular & political problems.
There’s nothing religious in this post at all.

Watching her husband die waiting on health insurance from the gvt while they rent out a yacht for a day for 2 million dollars for their kids birthday is…not religious?

Okay what religion do you come from? I have to assume you skipped the rest of the post.

I, for one, feel this insults all of our intelligence.

Work harder, pay your taxes, retire later. Quit being lazy just get a job. That is peoples attitude. Then they laugh at people who don’t lend themselves as obedient servants.

Have you noticed that we have created a system where sin is necessary just to keep a job? I know people that work all day and night 2 jobs and never see their kids just so they can keep living in a trailer.

I know I know they were lazy they should have done better in school. They deserve 10 dollars an hour.

Have you ever worked at a factory? They hire a college grad to come and mess everything up by trying to tell you your job. Then they get mad at you when their “ideas” don’t pan out.

The problem is that people feel that if they struggled to get “where their at” (PRIDE) then everyone else should too (judgment). This directly contradicts what our Lord told us in more than one way.

Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s and render to the Lord what is the Lord’s can be taken more than one way. I think it means that money has nothing to do with the spiritual world.
If government want’s to take your money let them. God saw it. Do you think you need money for your Lord to provide for you OR for you to find eternal life in him? No. That is what it means.

WHY can people not resist over-complicating things that our Lord told us? I wonder if it is to justify their own actions in life?

If a blind man leads a blind man into a pit they both fall in.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Just had a long talk with friend who has a Salvation Army facility across the alley. Solution to the druggie/junkie/alkie children-having-children repulsive cretin miscreants? Abortion! Kinda like Swift with his (parody) solution to the Irish starving to death: eat the babies! And this is somebody who delivers heavy sacks of bread to a food kitchen for charity and chats up a schizophrenic who has literally never had a friend and disdains eating meat and is otherwise a sensitive soul. So, first praying then working:

LORD, if You would, delay and repair the hardness of hearts that You prophesied and deliver us from the world, the flesh and the devil. Break this cycle of addiction and drug dealing and poverty and violence and ignorance and self-indulgence and pride and love of illegal money and fancy shoes and cellphones and predation and hatred of honest work and children at-risk, born and unborn whether in politicians, bureaucrats, religious or their clientele. Grant us a hunger for the Way, Truth & Life and sate us with Your presence in our hearts and grant us elegant solutions and wise deeds, all for Your honor and glory. AMEN

Nice post. I have two points. 1 - your friend is not aborting babies, but he is doing something very respectable. and 2 - The street-level drug dealers are not the problem. They are VICTIMS of a SYSTEM. They were left hanging out to dry at the bottom of the system so they make a way. It is wrong, but the ones making the speeches on TV are more wrong. The one’s lobbying for the corporation’s and banks are the real problem because they put people in situations where they have to sell drugs and then judge them as lazy or inadequate or just too stupid to make it (in their system).

So they take them from their kids when they catch them. That is after they manage to not get killed in the game.
I wonder, what would make a man risk death and prison if he cares about his family? These drug dealers are not the ones running around in brand new clothes stickin people up and shooting 14 year old witnesses.

You have only seen one side of the bottom. The next level up is people living illegally to try to have things when they never would otherwise (unless they went out and robbed someone, which many drug dealers don’t partake in).

But society is right. Since we are so gloriously sinless, we should definitely throw them in cages for the “good of society”. Yeah right, they make sure not to fund the schools, instead they fund law enforcement. they lock 2 up 4 take their place IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT.

 

[pnewton]

they put people in situations where they have to sell drugs and then judge them as lazy or inadequate or just too stupid to make it (in their system).

No one has to sell drugs.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

True. They can be poor and homeless.

What would you do in that situation when you can’t provide for your family? Your mom is sick and dieing, your sister can’t provide because she is too young, and you are not even out of high school yet. Your dad isn’t even in the picture never was. Then you find out another one of your friends got killed and your looking at a newborn who’s crying cuz they are hungry and DHS is taking too long to get you food benefits? Oh and your whole family is about to be out on the street.

Don’t say “trust in the Lord” that is pride. Is it the right answer oh yes it is for sure. But I doubt you or I would ever be that strong.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

No one has to sell drugs.

That you have met.

 

[pnewton]

True. They can be poor and homeless.

That you have met.

I do not accept your false dichotomies. Neither does the Church. No one is in a situation that they *have *to sin.

Don’t say “trust in the Lord” that is pride.

No, it is faith. It is also the answer that the Church gives.

What would you do in that situation when you can’t provide for your family? Your mom is sick and dieing, your sister can’t provide because she is too young, and you are not even out of high school yet. Your dad isn’t even in the picture never was. Then you find out another one of your friends got killed and your looking at a newborn who’s crying cuz they are hungry and DHS is taking too long to get you food benefits? Oh and your whole family is about to be out on the street.

Why not throw in alien abduction or an earthquake while you are at it? I have no issue with relying on charity, either government assistance or from private sources. Under no circumstances would I victimize others in similar situations by selling drugs.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. 1 Cor. 10:13

Those that choose to sell drugs do need housing,… in prison.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

WOW.
You just judged.

I have known people in that situation I just described it is not hypothetical what do you suggest we do with them. They were born in it because people did not give enough.
They are weak and lack faith, obviously, LIKE WE ALL DO.

I actually posted about 1 of them in this thread. He got hit in the head by a stray saving lives. Should he have been thrown in prison for being almost forced to sell drugs?
Quite the contrary, he was spiritually developed enough to be harvested.

Have you sinned? Have you tried to help people in that situation? Have you been to Detroit? Houston? The Charity that does exist is no where near sufficient.

Maybe we should throw you in prison for not helping enough. That logic holds just as much weight as yours.

Do you think the Church has NOT been infiltrated by Satan? This has been demonstrated time and time again that is why you must have a personal relationship with the Lord.

You are going to be one of those guys who just wants to justify his world view, regardless of God’s word, aren’t you? As long as the Church says it’s okay then it must be right?

People within the Church disagree with you. He who is first is last and last is first. The outsiders will be the ones to find eternal life.

I bet you will say nothing productive. You will just justify societies actions with vague statements (like the rest of them do).

Try walking a mile in another mans shoes before you JUDGE him.

Judge not lest ye be judged. It is clear-cut don’t twist God’s words up we are WRONG. We knew we would be though didn’t we? Someone warned us didn’t He?

Who runs the world?

Why did he fall?

Are you showing some of the same traits right now?

 

[FaithInTheSon]

I do not accept your false dichotomies. Neither does the Church. No one is in a situation that they *have *to sin.
No, it is faith. It is also the answer that the Church gives.
Why not throw in alien abduction or an earthquake while you are at it? I have no issue with relying on charity, either government assistance or from private sources. Under no circumstances would I victimize others in similar situations by selling drugs.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. 1 Cor. 10:13

Those that choose to sell drugs do need housing,… in prison.

I can tell you have never been in a terrible situation like the one I described NOR have you met ANYONE who is. There is a TON of them. CNN doesn’t tell you about it.

Are you in Law Enforcement? If so there is no point trying to get through to you you will justify your lifestyle regardless. They sound similar to the ones on the other side of the fence do they not? Are they supposed to pass judgment on another sinner and decide his fate in this life or the next?

There is another way to solve the crime problem. Stop judging and make things how they should be. Then you only have to worry about the crazy people.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Furthermore as I have already stated. Many people in the Church would have fallen farther from our Lord’s word than them if they were in their situation. They are not. Their judgment of others DIRECTLY CAUSES MORE SIN.

Woe to the one who causes others to sin.

If you will not open your mind to what is actually happening and feel a need to justify your actions and opinions in this life you are full of PRIDE. This is simple.

Who should profit from the incarcerations of my brothers killers? The same ones who judged people over and over until a whole city is full of sin? They shouldn’t but they do and I would not like to trade places with them at judgment.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

For the last time. Satan talked through even St. Peter. Why do you think your “teachers” are immune?

You have to get to know the Lord yourself. This is not figurative this is literal.

The Catholic Church is Satan’s main target. All the more reason I need to be involved.

Satan appears as the “angel of light”. He APPEARS BENEVOLENT. You have to pay attention and never stray from what your Lord told you personally.

If the Church’s opinion contradicts God’s word by contradicting scripture with scripture then your opinion should contradict the Church’s “official” opinion.

Who contradicts scripture with scripture again?

We are told not to judge others. Ever. It is simple. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. It is simple. It is literal. It WORKS. Every time we put someone in prison we cause sin in them and their ENTIRE FAMILY.

If you are so much wiser than them why not try to help them instead of put them in prison? Oh yeah, you judged them to be predators when the real predators are the ones causing the system to work the way it does. It used to be somewhat necessary now it is PURE GREED.

 

[TimeEntrance]

As at least one other poster has mentioned, the Church does not support the welfare state. The Church supports primarily the responsibility of all of those not in severe need to help out, to our ability, those in serious need. To a limited extent the Church also supports emergency or essential government aid for the very poor for those who are not receiving aid through other means.

There is no approved Church teaching which promotes government aid on a broad basis, indefinitely, and as the primary instrument of poverty relief for all those “in need.” Clergy and hierarchy regularly remind us Catholics to investigate how the poor are or are not being served, and to what extent any sub-populations of the poor legitimately rely on some aspects of government aid. The Church does not advocate the government replacing, en masse, other agencies of giving.

Eh… in terms of American political culture the Catholic Church - the Holy See - does in fact promote what to Americans would be a welfare state.

The Holy See promoting policies like the state paying impregnated women just for being mothers for a temporary time period - if the pregnant woman’s household income is below a certain level sounds like welfare state to any American.

The Popes generally fall left of the political line.

Notice President Barack Obama is far more right of the line than Pope Benedict XVI.

Source: politicalcompass.org/analysis2

 

[FaithInTheSon]

The Popes try their best to live by God’s word. It is not easy. They are not political.

I still don’t understand why we aren’t paying poor people to read the Gospel. We will pay for their incarceration though no problem, even if the profits are going to evil men.

 

[pnewton]

I can tell you have never been in a terrible situation like the one I described NOR have you met ANYONE who is.

You are terribly wrong mistaken about this. Which makes the following statement hypocrisy.

Stop judging…

I have judged no one. You have judged me. I have not specualted abou you, your family. I find such activity uncharitable and counter productive.

I have no objection to helping the poor and needy, even through the government. However, those that victimize others by selling them drugs because of their own bad circumstances are like the pedophile who preys on children then cries that he is an innocent victim because he too was molested. Is it true? Somewhat. Is it justified? Never. Attempts to justify sin is as old as the Garden of Eden. I am all for helping the poor. I am not all for exempting them from lawful punishment for their crimes against others.

Many people in the Church would have fallen farther from our Lord’s word than them if they were in their situation. They are not. Their judgment of others DIRECTLY CAUSES MORE SIN.

Yes, judgment of others is never acceptable. Please do not slander by accusing others of judging if they have not.

If you will not open your mind to what is actually happening and feel a need to justify your actions

What in the name of Mike are you talking about? What actions? What opinions? I think you are going wild with your assumptions here and, quite frankly are all over the map with this topic. Murder? That has nothing to do with the pros and cons of welfare. Drugs was marginally connected, but I think you have drifted too far.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

I do not accept your false dichotomies. Neither does the Church. No one is in a situation that they *have *to sin.
No, it is faith. It is also the answer that the Church gives.
Why not throw in alien abduction or an earthquake while you are at it? I have no issue with relying on charity, either government assistance or from private sources. Under no circumstances would I victimize others in similar situations by selling drugs.

No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. 1 Cor. 10:13

Those that choose to sell drugs do need housing,… in prison.

yes it is faith. Your faith is not that strong I can tell you that just by how you respond. Most of the Church does not have faith that strong. Don’t take my words out of context.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

You are terribly wrong mistaken about this. Which makes the following statement hypocrisy. I have judged no one. You have judged me. I have not specualted abou you, your family. I find such activity uncharitable and counter productive.

I have no objection to helping the poor and needy, even through the government. However, those that victimize others by selling them drugs because of their own bad circumstances are like the pedophile who preys on children then cries that he is an innocent victim because he too was molested. Is it true? Somewhat. Is it justified? Never. Attempts to justify sin is as old as the Garden of Eden. I am all for helping the poor. I am not all for exempting them from lawful punishment for their crimes against others.
Yes, judgment of others is never acceptable. Please do not slander by accusing others of judging if they have not.

What in the name of Mike are you talking about? What actions? What opinions? I think you are going wild with your assumptions here and, quite frankly are all over the map with this topic. Murder? That has nothing to do with the pros and cons of welfare. Drugs was marginally connected, but I think you have drifted too far.

re-read what you posted and re-read what I posted. Either your not paying attention or just don’t want to see. You did judge

“People who sell drugs need housing… in prison”.

I have not judged you. I would not have you put in prison for thinking that way because my judgment will always, by default, be incorrect.

But if you ask me people who think that way are the biggest contributors to the drug-game.

 

[pnewton]

I still don’t understand why we aren’t paying poor people to read the Gospel. We will pay for their incarceration though no problem, even if the profits are going to evil men.

People are not incarcerated for being poor.

Please do not rant again and call me names for pointing out this simple fact of law.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Murder does not relate to welfare?

What planet are you on?

 

[FaithInTheSon]

People are not incarcerated for being poor.

Please do not rant again and call me names for pointing out this simple fact of law.

I never called you names. Quit stating falsities to try to make yourself look better. This is pride working in you again.

Poor people are incarcerated simply for being poor ALL THE TIME. Go talk to some of them wow.

For instance, if my friend, who according to the scripture was ready for harvest, had been locked up for selling drugs. He would have court-costs, a criminal record, and likely child support to pay and no job. What do you think he would have done when he got out?

This is simple. Stop accusing me of doing things I did not do you have done this multiple times now.