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Hokomai
Guest
Has any Catholic thinker addressed the issue of why Jesus, when asked how to pray (Lk 11:1) did not direct his example of prayer (Te Lord’s Prayer) to anyone but God the Father? Why no one in the communion of saints?
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Luvtosew
Guest
Because that is who were suppose to pray to. The Father 
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Jocko_VT
Guest
Why is an explanation needed?
Why *would *there be a request for intercession by the saints?
Does the logic that leads to this question also lead to an argument that the only viable prayer is the Lord’s Prayer itself? In other words, if an answer is needed for why the Lord’s Prayer did not include a request for intercession by the saints, must Catholics also explain why they do anything at all other than the Lord’s Prayer?
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Mintaka
Guest
Because Jesus said that, while the Apostles were praying the Lord’s Prayer, they should quit interrupting the prayer to start asking each other for favors.
Jesus told people to ask God for what they needed, and that’s what He exhibited to them when He taught them this specific prayer. He didn’t tell them not to pray any other prayers, of which Jews had plenty. He didn’t stop praying Jewish prayers himself. And He didn’t stop asking other human beings for things, or stop the Apostles asking.
For example, the little boy with the loaves and fishes. They didn’t just steal his stuff. Nor did Jesus and the Apostles pray to the Father and have loaves and fishes just materialize. Jesus asked the Apostles what food they had, they brought up this kid’s food which he was happy to give, and only then did Jesus do a miracle of multiplication. Same thing when Jesus needed a donkey colt to ride on.
Like Jesus and the Apostles, we ask around for our needs, both to our brothers and sisters in Heaven and on Earth, and to God. Like the little boy and like the donkey’s owner, the saints do God’s will and answer our requests with the gifts God has given them. This doesn’t threaten God’s power; this is doing God’s will.
If you can ask me for help without offending God, you can ask a saint in heaven for help. If you trust God’s servants on earth, you should trust His saints and angels in Heaven a lot more. Anyone who does good things for a brother in Christ, or trusts a brother’s love, is glorifying Christ; so Christ can scarcely be mocked by us chatting with our brothers the saints.
Jesus told people to ask God for what they needed, and that’s what He exhibited to them when He taught them this specific prayer. He didn’t tell them not to pray any other prayers, of which Jews had plenty. He didn’t stop praying Jewish prayers himself. And He didn’t stop asking other human beings for things, or stop the Apostles asking.
For example, the little boy with the loaves and fishes. They didn’t just steal his stuff. Nor did Jesus and the Apostles pray to the Father and have loaves and fishes just materialize. Jesus asked the Apostles what food they had, they brought up this kid’s food which he was happy to give, and only then did Jesus do a miracle of multiplication. Same thing when Jesus needed a donkey colt to ride on.
Like Jesus and the Apostles, we ask around for our needs, both to our brothers and sisters in Heaven and on Earth, and to God. Like the little boy and like the donkey’s owner, the saints do God’s will and answer our requests with the gifts God has given them. This doesn’t threaten God’s power; this is doing God’s will.
If you can ask me for help without offending God, you can ask a saint in heaven for help. If you trust God’s servants on earth, you should trust His saints and angels in Heaven a lot more. Anyone who does good things for a brother in Christ, or trusts a brother’s love, is glorifying Christ; so Christ can scarcely be mocked by us chatting with our brothers the saints.
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
I think that all prior respondants to this thread have missed the mark.
The reason there is no reference to Saints in the Our Father is that it was given to us by Jesus Christ himself. And, at that time, the Apostles and Deciples were all alive and there weren’t martyrs yet-so there weren’t any Saints yet.
The reason there is no reference to Saints in the Our Father is that it was given to us by Jesus Christ himself. And, at that time, the Apostles and Deciples were all alive and there weren’t martyrs yet-so there weren’t any Saints yet.
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Matrix_Refugee
Guest
Wow, that’s a very, very good point! It would stand to reason, since the saints “hadn’t been invented yet”, as the saying goes.I think that all prior respondants to this thread have missed the mark.
The reason there is no reference to Saints in the Our Father is that it was given to us by Jesus Christ himself. And, at that time, the Apostles and Deciples were all alive and there weren’t martyrs yet-so there weren’t any Saints yet.
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Hokomai
Guest
I had thought about that before posting, and considered the Angels, the Prophets, and Sr John the Baptist as good candidates. Given her immaculate status, Mary could also have been included, saving a large number of arguments 1500 years in the future!I think that all prior respondants to this thread have missed the mark.
The reason there is no reference to Saints in the Our Father is that it was given to us by Jesus Christ himself. And, at that time, the Apostles and Deciples were all alive and there weren’t martyrs yet-so there weren’t any Saints yet.
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Ian_Ward
Guest
THE “LORDS PRAYER” not the “SAINT’s PRAYER”
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Anthony_V
Guest
Yes there were-- the holy innocents.I think that all prior respondants to this thread have missed the mark.
The reason there is no reference to Saints in the Our Father is that it was given to us by Jesus Christ himself. And, at that time, the Apostles and Deciples were all alive and there weren’t martyrs yet-so there weren’t any Saints yet.
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Anthony_V
Guest
For the same reason that it doesn’t insist we intercede in prayer for our sisters and brothers.
The Pater Noster is a priority hierarchy of Christian living-- not a doctrinal summation.
Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. (Glory of God)
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (Submission to God)
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. (Trusting in God’s Mercy in both corporal and spiritual matters)
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. (Be spared from messianic woes)
Amen. (I believe)
In doing this, Christ effectively presents the main focus of the Christian life-- God. The saints, and our brothers and sisters, are but stepping stones that help us towards Christ when we are struggling. For this reason, it would be unnecessary to include intercession of any sort in this prayer.
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Trishie
Guest
Jesus had already demonstrated that He accepted the intercession of the greatest of His saints, in the Wedding Feast of Cana. John 1:1-12
Mary had desired Him to address the embarrassing fact…serious given the culture…of the hosts at Wedding Feast in running out of wine.
Jesus protested that it wasn’t time for signs/miracles yet, but He did the miracle anyway because His Mother asked Him.
Therefore Jesus had already given His approval to the intercession of other human beings and in particular of His Mother.
Therefore there is clear and undeniable biblical affirmation of God’s approval for asking the intercession of the Saints.
For this we praise and thank You Lord, that You are pleased to grant the prayers of Your Mother and of the Saints!
:harp::harp::harp:
Mary had desired Him to address the embarrassing fact…serious given the culture…of the hosts at Wedding Feast in running out of wine.
Jesus protested that it wasn’t time for signs/miracles yet, but He did the miracle anyway because His Mother asked Him.
Therefore Jesus had already given His approval to the intercession of other human beings and in particular of His Mother.
Therefore there is clear and undeniable biblical affirmation of God’s approval for asking the intercession of the Saints.
For this we praise and thank You Lord, that You are pleased to grant the prayers of Your Mother and of the Saints!
:harp::harp::harp:
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Tarpeian_Rock
Guest
An understanding which had not yet been formulated by the pre-embryonic Church.
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thistle
Guest
The gates of Heaven were closed to all until the Resurrection of Jesus so there were no saints in Heaven while Jesus walked among the people.
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Hokomai
Guest
How did the transfiguration happen then?
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Anthony_V
Guest
I stand corrected. I subconsciously placed the opening of the gates of Heaven at the nativity for some reason
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Anthony_V
Guest
Since they (Moses and Elijah) were waiting in the Limbo of the Holy Fathers for Christ’s return and admittance to heaven, all that they would have lacked is their resurrected bodies and beatific vision. There is no divine law stating that a holy soul awaiting the resurrection is restricted to Abraham’s bosom. Even if they were resuscitated (like Lazarus), they still would have died (like Lazarus). No one entered heaven prior to Christ’s resurrection.
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WesleyF
Guest
I don’t know if any Catholic thinker has addressed this issue. But I don’t think this is a very difficult question to address.
- There was no communion of saints yet. All the saints were in Sheol, waiting for the time when Christ would take them into heaven.
- The Lord’s prayer also doesn’t include praying to Jesus himself, but only to the Father! Does this somehow mean that Jesus wanted us to not pray to him? No. We see, for instance that Stephen prayed to Jesus. “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59). Paul prayed to Jesus so that the “thorn in his flesh” might be removed (2 Cor 12:8-9). We are instructed to call on the name of the Lord Jesus in 1 Cor 1:2.
- Jesus, being the Son of God, wants us to approach the Father as sons of God. So he was teaching a very specific prayer - prayer made to the Father. This also fits perfectly with the mission of Jesus. The mission of Jesus was to reveal and glorify the Father. He didn’t come to seek glory for himself. The mission of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Son. Therefore, the Holy Spirit taught the disciples to pray to Jesus and so we see the disciples praying to Jesus as well.
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