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Irishmom2
Guest
Exactly. What a lot of people call justice is merely vengeance.
Why does the US and so many of its citizens continue to support the death penalty?
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Crocus
Guest
No need to call other countries “bad” just note they are not Christian, so being Christian must not be at the bottom of support for the death penalty.
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Ender
Guest
Authoritarian regimes kill because they find it useful to do so. The issue of whether it is merited or not is irrelevant. Christian countries supported executions precisely because it was merited as a just punishment for certain heinous crimes.
When you search for an explanation to the question asked by the OP it really needs to include an understanding of why the church so decisively and consistently supported it. Along with
China, India, Iran, etc you need to include the Catholic Church. You cannot simply ignore that.
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njlisa
Guest
On a national basis, support for the death penalty has declined from 78 percent in 1996 to 54 percent in 2018. Other than federal and military executions, the death penalty is a state-by-state issue.
In fact, 21 states, Washington D.C. and Puerto Rico have abolished the death penalty.
Since 1977, when the death penalty was reinstated, 1,512 executions have been imposed. Texas, at 567, has executed more than a third of the prisoners. My home state of Oklahoma has the highest per capita rate of executions,
I think it’s more important to look regional rather than national factors to understand who is imposing the death penalty and why.
Find more data at Death Penalty Information Center.
In fact, 21 states, Washington D.C. and Puerto Rico have abolished the death penalty.
We need to look at which states impose the death penalty on a regular basis.
Since 1977, when the death penalty was reinstated, 1,512 executions have been imposed. Texas, at 567, has executed more than a third of the prisoners. My home state of Oklahoma has the highest per capita rate of executions,
I think it’s more important to look regional rather than national factors to understand who is imposing the death penalty and why.
Find more data at Death Penalty Information Center.
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Rau
Guest
Correction: The Church has taught that CP is not intrinsically evil, meaning there are/can be circumstances when the act is morally good;
I have to agree the consistency of what is currently proposed and that which came before has not been well demonstrated.
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Ender
Guest
There are any number of reasons why countries employ capital punishment. Your list suggested that they all support it for the same one, which is clearly inaccurate. There is a moral reason for supporting it and various practical ones. As I said, it is unreasonable to simply list the US with various other nations to suggest our reason is invalid because (presumably) theirs is.
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Annie
Guest
And those “highly religious countries with the death penalty,” do they have the same concepts of justice that the Catholic Church does?
No one has really addressed the issues revolving around just retribution (as opposed to personal desire for revenge) that I brought up earlier. These were issues on which the Church based her position in favor of the use of the DP for most of the hostory of the Church.
The Church teaches that justice is giving each person his due. Clearly by this rule cutting off a man’s hand for stealing is disproportionate, leading to the question on what basis do those particular nations base their punishments and support for the DP? Are they the same as those of the Church?
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Beryllos
Guest
Huh? Do you remember what the OP’s question was?
And so, once again…
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Annie
Guest
No worries; I appreciated your taking the time 
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TK421
Guest
That’s a rocky road though. Some would argue that cutting off a hand for a major theft is appropriate and not disproportional. Nations within Christendom in the past have practiced such penalties. True enough, it was the civil authorities who tended to be more harsh and the Church which advised restraint, but it nonetheless happened.
And are current laws on capital punishment proportionate and “giving somebody their due”? If somebody rapes and brutally murders somebody why should they get chemical injections or some other quick death? Why not drawn & quartered? Tie each of their limbs to a horse and then have the horses gradually yank the person apart. That would seem more proportionate to a rape & murder. Nations within Christendom practiced this form of punishment in the past, among other things, and it was not perceived as vengeance. It was perceived as justice.
The fact is: the Church has gradually developed an understanding that a retributive penal system based on proportionate response is not appropriate to the dignity of persons or to the common good. Pope St John Paul II and company saw that and the current Pope has taken that idea to its completion. There will not be a reversal. The change will become permanently etched into the consciousness of new generations. People will protest under some confused guise of remaining true to orthodoxy but without the Apostolic Church supporting them it will simmer away or they will isolate themselves into schismatic or quasi-schismatic groups.
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Beryllos
Guest
Why does the US and so many of its citizens continue to support the death penalty?
Great question!
I think our attachment to the death penalty in the US arises from our strong desire for self-determination. In the US, we tend to expect control over our lives, and for the most part we obtain it. We have the rule of law. We honor contracts. When things go wrong, we seek remedies through the law. We move forward.
Everything changes when there is a senseless, unprovoked, or contemptuous killing. It disrupts the order we’ve come to expect. It shows the inability of our society to prevent serious crime or to repair the damage done. It flies in the face of self-determination.
Our reaction is to do something, do anything that we can. We can’t bring the dead back to life. We can’t force a murderer to have remorse. But it remains within our power to take an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. And by that, we try to convince ourselves that we really are in control.
Great question!
I think our attachment to the death penalty in the US arises from our strong desire for self-determination. In the US, we tend to expect control over our lives, and for the most part we obtain it. We have the rule of law. We honor contracts. When things go wrong, we seek remedies through the law. We move forward.
Everything changes when there is a senseless, unprovoked, or contemptuous killing. It disrupts the order we’ve come to expect. It shows the inability of our society to prevent serious crime or to repair the damage done. It flies in the face of self-determination.
Our reaction is to do something, do anything that we can. We can’t bring the dead back to life. We can’t force a murderer to have remorse. But it remains within our power to take an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. And by that, we try to convince ourselves that we really are in control.
Emeraldlady
New member
Well no, the media hasn’t had too much to say about the issue in the last 150 years that have seen the rolling abolition of the death penalty around the world. The impetus has come from within society.
Evangelium Vitae (1995)
Among the signs of hope we should also count the spread, at many levels of public opinion, of a new sensitivity ever more opposed to war as an instrument for the resolution of conflicts between peoples, and increasingly oriented to finding effective but “non-violent” means to counter the armed aggressor. In the same perspective there is evidence of a growing public opposition to the death penalty, even when such a penalty is seen as a kind of “legitimate defence” on the part of society. Modern society in fact has the means of effectively suppressing crime by rendering criminals harmless without definitively denying them the chance to reform.
The US is unique among western Christian countries in denying that the movement in society for abolition on the grounds that it does more harm than good, is a sign for good and a movement of the Holy Spirit. There is a great media beat up is more the claim to the death penalty being a divine right without moral conditions.
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Patri
Guest
I also do not understand how aot of people hold on to the death penalty in USA. I have watched a lot of documentaries and interviews of death row inmates, I wonder if people would feel the same way if it was their child or relative waiting to be executed, I know I would plead till the last moment for that life to be spared if it were me. When I have looked into the lives of convicts, I have found that some had terrible childhoods, it does make me wonder if as a society we could not have prevented some tragedies. We solve violence with violence.
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nfinke
Guest
If it was my child who had willingly taken the priceless life of another person made in Gods image, it would make me terribly sad, even angry, because I would wish it was not true. But if it was true, and the death penalty was the way to administer justice, I wouldnt be against it for my kids if I was for it for other people. I would not think they shouldnt face punishment for their actions just because they share DNA with me. Thats not how justice works. Because the person whose life they threw away like trash was somebodys child too. Me and my child are no more special than they are.
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Emeraldlady
New member
Do you have kids, nfinke? My kids are adults and thankfully never broke the law but while I would accept that they would need to be punished for their crimes… I can’t fathom handing them over to death without a fight. My children were made in Gods image as well even if they did the worst crime possible.
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Patri
Guest
Exactly my thoughts. People that are against the death penalty don’t feel the crimes committed are any less horrendous but we do see how destructive taking another life is. Even by the law. And we do see the innocent family of the murderer, that is where some more of the human dignity comes in. If it were my child, I would fight the execution till the last moment as I am against the child of another person being executed. I think we dehumanise people in certain situations we think they deserve. And God in his infinite wisdom chose not to kill Cain, why do we keep thinking we have the right to he judge and jury? I do not live in a country that dishes out the death penalty, I used to and I know that it made me feel like it was a normal part of justice then. I’m glad I don’t anymore.
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nfinke
Guest
As a matter of fact I do have kids. But by bringing that up it seems you missed my point. What is and isnt justice doesnt change based on who is and isnt related to me.
Of course if one of my kids was accused of murder, I would fight to try and prove them innocent. But if they had in fact done something that horrible, I wouldnt think they were the only people on Earth who shouldnt have to face punishment for it just because I was their daddy.
Of course if one of my kids was accused of murder, I would fight to try and prove them innocent. But if they had in fact done something that horrible, I wouldnt think they were the only people on Earth who shouldnt have to face punishment for it just because I was their daddy.
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nfinke
Guest
Cain did not kill his brother premeditatively, he did it because he was angry. God said many times that capital punishment was acceptable. He said because He made man in His own image, men who throw something so sacred and precious away like trash ought rightfully to forfeit their own life. Its not like I made up the concept, its right there in Genesis…and Exdodus…and Leviticus…and again in Numbers…and again in Deuteronomy…etc.
You also cant bring up that God didnt kill Cain, and then just Pretend He didnt command the Israelites to execute a man for gathering wood on the sabbath, or He didnt personally execute hundreds or thousands of Egyptians on the first Passover.
You also cant bring up that God didnt kill Cain, and then just Pretend He didnt command the Israelites to execute a man for gathering wood on the sabbath, or He didnt personally execute hundreds or thousands of Egyptians on the first Passover.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
The primary reason people in USA support the death penalty is out of fear that heinous criminals will be paroled or freed or somehow be put in a position to escape, and that once out, they will reoffend. This has unfortunately happened, especially prior to about the 1990s. If people can be guaranteed that Joe Serial Killer will actually be locked up and the key thrown away and he won’t be coming out again, then they usually don’t insist that he be executed. This isn’t just my opinion as I used to do a lot of anti-death-penalty work and attended conferences, talked to experts etc.
I’ve noticed that even in some of the European countries that folks point to as being all against the death penalty, there is significant discontent from at least a segment of the population about violent multiple murderers and rapists being let out of prison and sent to live in the community, often without telling anybody they are there. Sometimes these people violently reoffend.
I’ve noticed that even in some of the European countries that folks point to as being all against the death penalty, there is significant discontent from at least a segment of the population about violent multiple murderers and rapists being let out of prison and sent to live in the community, often without telling anybody they are there. Sometimes these people violently reoffend.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Actually some of us are against the death penalty for other reasons. I’ve been against the death penalty for decades because it’s legally unworkable from both a process and justice standpoint, not for moral reasons of life preservation. It’s nice that my view agrees with the Church’s view because it’s one less moral quandary I have to solve, but my primary reason for being against it was not because I’m all merciful like Sister Helen Prejean, it’s because there’s no good way to fairly apply it without huge cost to society and a significant risk of bias or error.
I have tried to work on my personal charity in recent years, as I was not terribly religious when I formulated my anti-DP views, but my point is that there are a lot of reasons why people can be against the death penalty and it’s not always out of seeing a murderer’s life as having some great value. Some people think it’s a greater suffering for the criminal to have to continue to live in a cell for 50 years than giving him a quick easy death. Some people think executions are too costly due to all the appeals. Some people favor keeping criminals alive so they can possibly testify to other crimes or say where bodies are buried, in other words give closure. Etc.
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