Why does the vatican display mythological art?

[ab75]

I’m just wondering if anyone knows why the Vatican displays art that is related to Greek and Roman mythology in the museum. I can understand displaying art of value, even if it’s nuetral, but it did tend to bother me when it is of “idol gods”?

While it doesn’t necessarily scandalize me, I don’t like that it gives ammunition to those who look down upon the “CHURCH” as an organization that “paganized” true Christianity. It also lends support to those who look to scandalize the organization over the wrongs that have been done for material wealth.

 

[clmowry]

I’m just wondering if anyone knows why the Vatican displays art that is related to Greek and Roman mythology in the museum. I can understand displaying art of value, even if it’s nuetral, but it did tend to bother me when it is of “idol gods”?

While it doesn’t necessarily scandalize me, I don’t like that it gives ammunition to those who look down upon the “CHURCH” as an organization that “paganized” true Christianity. It also lends support to those who look to scandalize the organization over the wrongs that have been done for material wealth.

I would think because it’s the Vatican art museum and not a Church.

If they set up a statue of Zues behind the altar in Saint Peters, someone might have a point.

Chuck

 

[ab75]

I would think because it’s the Vatican art museum and not a Church.

If they set up a statue of Zues behind the altar in Saint Peters, someone might have a point.

Chuck

Understood, but it’s still 100% owned by the Church. I’m not suggesting they should destroy all non-Christian art, I just don’t know why they’d want to profit from art that at least originally was made contrary to our God.

 

[Della]

Well, you have to understand that just the opposite charge of the Church being too insular and out of touch with life would be brought against it if all it’s works of art were strictly religious. You know the old saying: “Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.”

While mythological stories are pagan in origin, they are stories of humans wrestling with the larger questions of life, such as, why are we here? where are we going? what is virtuous and what isn’t?, etc. There are lessons that mythology teaches us that are of great value. Take Tolkien’s “Lord of the Rings” and his other mythological writings, many based on the Norse mythologies. They teach us wisdom, truth, beauty, etc. through storytelling. It doesn’t matter that the stories are of gods and goddesses or elves and dwarves, they help us see things from a new perspective and so keep them fresh and alive.

The Catholic Church has never denied the truths to be found in pagan mythologies, rather it has “baptized” them and taken what is good from them into itself. We are not at war with Zeus or Manwe, but with the very real powers and principalities of the enemy. Anything that helps us fight against the true dark powers is fine as long as it tells us the truth about God, who we are, and how we ought to stay on the path of righteousness.

 

[bluemary]

To be honest, I didn’t know that they did.

I am sure that it is probably because it is, in fact, still art. What mythological beliefs often demonstrate was that man has an inclination towards something greater then himself. That even if he is ignorant of the truth he recognizes that there is truth out there and goes in search of his creator.

I can understand your concern though and would love to hear from a Catholic museum curator as to why these wouldn’t be kept in a seperate building.

One more thing to pray about.
Mary

 

[clmowry]

Understood, but it’s still 100% owned by the Church. I’m not suggesting they should destroy all non-Christian art, I just don’t know why they’d want to profit from art that at least originally was made contrary to our God.

I don’t know that they make much profit from any particular piece of art, I mean you could toss half of what’s in the Vatican Museum out and you’d still have more really cool stuff there to look than any one is going to have time to really appreciate in a tour or twelve.

It would be interesting to see the finances but I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out that the Vatican Museum losses money. Its not cheap to keep ancient artifacts in good shape.

These pieces are part of the worlds history, and what better organization to preserve it. You’d be hard pressed to find a more stable and enduring home for the goods.

I’m betting it’ll still be around when most countries we know today have different names.

Chuck

 

[Barbkw]

The history of Christian evangelization after Jesus’ Ascension by the Apostles and all of the subsequent generations of His disciples involves the conversion of both pagans and Jews.

That initial evangelization effort centered in the Mediterranian, where pagans believed in the Greek and the Roman gods and goddesses.

While we Catholics have the Greek and Roman art work in our museum, we have the Jewish understanding of the Holy of Holies at every Mass.

 

[Milesius]

Same reasons any other museum would.

 

[PatrickSebast]

The Church has always been devoted to preserving history in all its forms. The art represents the reality of our history. Much like when the Church talks about or holds conferences on science they don’t ban the discussion of discoveries and observations such as evolution that may appear to conflict with Christian thought and when the psychology of things such as homosexuality are being evaluated they encourage the studies rather than just insisting that it is a condition of sin that can be fixed simply with prayer.

If the Church talks about science it wants to see legitimate science used to its fullest, and if it talks about the mind it wants an honest discussion with well done studies about the workings of the mind. In these instances they do not limit themselves to simply their own teachings but instead see these things an an opportunity to better understand God through the understanding of his creation. Why should our art museum be any different? Rather than limit it solely to church history, they want to show ART history, and it just so happens that the Church doesn’t have the monopoly on art either.

Really I think it is part of the beauty of the Church. Many Christians wouldn’t even want anyone to read some of the documents that were preserved in our monasteries due to their pagan nature, but were it not for those documents it would be much harder to have a clear picture of the culture Christ was dealing with.

 

[1ke]

Understood, but it’s still 100% owned by the Church. I’m not suggesting they should destroy all non-Christian art, I just don’t know why they’d want to profit from art that at least originally was made contrary to our God.

(a) You assume that the Church “profits” when in fact it does not. The Vatican Museums, like all museums, make art available to all people for their enjoyment. Museums are not profit-making entities.

(b) It’s ART. The Church recognizes well the beauty of these works of art, and their historical and cultural significance, and has preserved these precious treasures throughout the ages. The Church doesn’t really give a flip what someone thinks about the fact that they embrace art, culture, and history. The Church has never been of the mind to destroy artwork because it is non-Christian. The Church long ago rejected iconoclasm in all its forms. We are material creatures, the Church operates in a material world-- not just a spiritual world. Therefore, the Church makes art and treasures gifted to it available for all to see.

In short, the Church isn’t afraid of embracing history, art, science and culture.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Understood, but it’s still 100% owned by the Church. I’m not suggesting they should destroy all non-Christian art, I just don’t know why they’d want to profit from art that at least originally was made contrary to our God.

Did the Greeks and Romans know Jesus?

Probably the art you are referring to comes from before Him. The Vatican art museum could display cave paintings, too—doesn’t bother me. I see that it bothers you.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Having been in the Vatican museums a few weeks ago, I found myself wondering the same thing. I realize a papal responsibility is preserving the patrimony of the Vatican for the needs of the Church. Still, I wonder how it would be received if a future pope decided that the Vatican should be about Christian art, and sold off the pagan works and gave the money to feed and care for the poor. Now, there’s a radical thought . . . .

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Oh, great—another of these Baaaad Vatican! Baaad! threads.

1. They probably don’t own the art.
2. Don’t you think Jesus deserves the very best we can give him?
3. Even if ‘The Vatican’ that people are always whining about ‘sold everything to the bare walls to feed the poor,’ what then? Everyone would be fed forever?
4. Jesus himself said, ‘The poor you will always have with you.’
5. I surmise that, given your philosophy, you have sold everything YOU own to ‘feed the poor.’

 

[Barbkw]

If you’re willing to dig deep into biblical history, is it ancient art that will help tell the story of God’s plan of salvation to all people.

Ever considered the oddity of the Egyptian obelisks in Rome and how they mark salvation history?

In Holy Scripture there are multiple references to the use of the sentence, “I called you out of Egypt”.

‘One of the Egyptian obelisks, weighs 230 ton and it comes from the temple of Amun in Karnak. It was brought to Alexandria with another obelisk by Constantius II, and then brought on its own from there to Rome in 357 to decorate the spina of the Circus Maximus.’

"The Circus Maximus was built in 326 BC and could hold 250,000 spectators and is located in a valley formed by the Palatine and Aventine hills. Later the Circus Maximus was the site of Christian slaughter.

The last games were held in 549 by Totilla the Goth who captured Rome and reduced its population to 500. After 549 the Circus Maximus was never used again."

 

[ab75]

Did the Greeks and Romans know Jesus?

Probably the art you are referring to comes from before Him. The Vatican art museum could display cave paintings, too—doesn’t bother me. I see that it bothers you.

It doesn’t bother me per se, in that I don’t think there is anything intrinsically evil about it. I also believe these people were searching, and art has value. For me, I enjoy it and all of salvation/human history. On the other hand, Paul warns that we shouldn’t do things that can cause someone else to stumble, even if it isn’t really wrong. The fact is, the inclusion of “pagan” art can and does (wrongly) re-affirm critics views that the Church “corrupted” Christianity by accepting items that weren’t Christian just to gain power.

I converted to Catholicism because I’m convinced we have the fullest form of the truth that was started through the sacraments, despite our visable scars in history. However, we have some close family members (my wives parents) that unfortunately left the Catholic Church to become Jehovah’s Witnesses (before I was in the family) because they were not properly catechized and couldn’t get satisfactory answers as they were leaving. From what I understand, this was a very difficult move for them (not like just going to the Lutheran Church for some small doctrine issue), and caused a great deal of strife in the family, which they viewed as proof they were on the right track, since they were being “persecuted for the truth”. The unfortunate truth is, for them a trip to Italy, which should draw them into our rich history, can actually re-affirm their assertion that the Church is not God’s Church.

I know when we were in Florence, and learned of the Archbishop and other cleregy’s attempt to murder two medici brothers during Mass, which was most likely done with knowledge of the Pope, it really places our human side on display. When you consider that the people then killed the archbishop, and the Pope withheld communion from Florence as retaliation for this, followed by a rival medici actually becoming Pope within a generation, it paints a clear picture that Church workings were very different and provides great insight as to why seperation of Church and State are positive developments (for the Church’s benefit). These things can definitely make someone without significant knowledge of the historical church and deep foundation of teachings question things. This is history that can’t be changed, however the display of art is in our control.

Some of the answers have made great sense, and I think it is good to show the art of history. The question stemmed from the fact that I know it will confirm in some minds why they shouldn’t join the Church, and it will potentially open a question in others and make them vulnerable to outside well meaning people.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

So?

Those looking to bash the Church will do so under any cirumstances. Let the Church be what She is and don’t worry about appeasement. That way leads to the slippery slope of relativism.

 

[ab75]

So?

Those looking to bash the Church will do so under any cirumstances. Let the Church be what She is and don’t worry about appeasement. That way leads to the slippery slope of relativism.

I don’t think it’s appeasing to only show Christian art in the museum. I also think that the fact that the art is certainly not essential to salvation, but could harm those weaker in faith (like those who abstained from food or drink), it’s at least a relevant discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with the slippery slope of relativism.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I don’t think it’s appeasing to only show Christian art in the museum. I also think that the fact that the art is certainly not essential to salvation, but could harm those weaker in faith (like those who abstained from food or drink), it’s at least a relevant discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with the slippery slope of relativism.

But I think it does.

I would have a problem if the Vatican Museum displayed clearly blasphemous or obscene art. But the moment an institution or person tries to appease and please, there begins the descent.

 

[ab75]

But I think it does.

I would have a problem if the Vatican Museum displayed clearly blasphemous or obscene art. But the moment an institution or person tries to appease and please, there begins the descent.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the question has been answered as to the why.

Whether or not the inclusion of such art brings more people into the fullness of the truth, or pushes/keeps away more people is something we’ll never know but could be an interesting discussion over a glass of wine. Perhaps the Lord will enlighten us to these unanswered questions in the afterlife, but I suspect we won’t care to much at that point.

 

[Della]

I just wanted to add this to the discussion, that those who look for reasons to be scandalized will be.

In the USA we live in a culture of neo-Puritans who are “Shocked…Shocked!” by anything that smacks of the flesh, even if they themselves don’t live up to the their Puritan ancestors standards. I believe it’s a part of our heritage that is hardest to abandon for us who become Catholic from a Protestant background, especially if we were Evangelicals. The old gods and goddesses were earthy and raw and unpredictable. We don’t like that except in our soap operas. The old myths remind us that without God’s grace we are all heathens at heart, fallen creatures who need the natural law of God, God’s grace, and the laws men make based on these in order to function as societies.

We like to think we’re above all the excesses of the ancient Greeks and Romans, but we’re reverting to them more and more. The Church keeps reminding us of what we are without God’s grace by preserving these works of art. If Protestants are scandalized they ought to ask themselves why. Is it because some of these works depict the old gods and goddesses or because they don’t want to be reminded that without the influence of the Church in the world, they’d still be slicing open chickens to predict their futures and sacrificing virgins to become temple harlots? Most don’t bother to ask such questions because of ignorance. It’s our job to educate them.