Why does the world exist? By Jim Holt

[Tiber_Swimmer]

I have just read this book, after seeing it recommended in “The Economist” weekly. It examines most of the attempted answers to this haunting question, and although Jim’s tentative answer is not very reassuring to Christians, the presentation is based on interviews with and quotes by philosophers and scientists, which makes it much more approachable than a straight, closely argued treatise. I’d be interested to swap opinions with anyone else who has read this book, or anyone who has a strong enough grounding in philosophy to feel they don’t need to read it, for that matter! (grin)

If the high price of the hardcover is an issue, you might like to note that I got it as a Kindle e-book for US$9.99. Best ten dollar’s worth I’ve had in a long time!

 

[migueltojose]

No one knows the why’s or how’s of God, but it is impossible not to speculate. Our Creed states that Jesus was “born of the Father before all ages” (before time) and “through him all things were made” (the universe, souls). Keeping this in mind makes it easier to consider the possibilities. Perhaps The Father, Son and Holy Spirit wanted to find/create a physical place to house “souls” and they went about creating the universe and all (time and space), which I would think was a really big deal for them and perhaps even took numerous attempts. I even suspect Jesus and the Holy Spirit had to “sell” God on the idea (how). Maybe if you’re pure spirit you long for a phsical existence. Kinda makes me feel more appreciative for life and responsible for a virtuous life.

A great resource is Father Robert Spitzer’s website:

magisreasonfaith.org/

 

[joe370]

Why does the world exist?

Could you ask a tougher question please…LOL…

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Could you ask a tougher question please…LOL…

How about - What is the greatest good purpose that God can have to create the universe and life?

 

[Tiber_Swimmer]

No one knows the why’s or how’s of God, but it is impossible not to speculate. Our Creed states that Jesus was “born of the Father before all ages” (before time) and “through him all things were made” (the universe, souls). Keeping this in mind makes it easier to consider the possibilities. Perhaps The Father, Son and Holy Spirit wanted to find/create a physical place to house “souls” and they went about creating the universe and all (time and space), which I would think was a really big deal for them and perhaps even took numerous attempts. I even suspect Jesus and the Holy Spirit had to “sell” God on the idea (how). Maybe if you’re pure spirit you long for a phsical existence. Kinda makes me feel more appreciative for life and responsible for a virtuous life.

A great resource is Father Robert Spitzer’s website:

magisreasonfaith.org/

Thanks. I like the look of the website you introduced and have bookmarked it for when I have more time to browse. Today was my 75th birthday and a special Sunday in our local church, when we look back on the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the fire bombing of Tokyo, and the ghastly battle for Okinawa (in which half of the 200,000 Japanese deaths were Japanese non-combatants). The bishop led us in a special Mass for peace.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I have just read this book, after seeing it recommended in “The Economist” weekly. It examines most of the attempted answers to this haunting question, and although Jim’s tentative answer is not very reassuring to Christians, the presentation is based on interviews with and quotes by philosophers and scientists, which makes it much more approachable than a straight, closely argued treatise. I’d be interested to swap opinions with anyone else who has read this book, or anyone who has a strong enough grounding in philosophy to feel they don’t need to read it, for that matter! (grin)

If the high price of the hardcover is an issue, you might like to note that I got it as a Kindle e-book for US$9.99. Best ten dollar’s worth I’ve had in a long time!

Because God is Good, the universe exists. Thomas Aquinas
Why not read a good Catholic Philosopher. The Last Superstition by Edward Feser ( skip page 146 which is suitable only for Doctors and Nurses.) also Aquinas by the same author

:tiphat:

 

[Tiber_Swimmer]

Well, my philosophy text books were written by a Jesuit Father, so I’ve nothing against Catholic philosophers. I’ll follow up the lead you gave. But Catholic philosophers can also be mistaken. Not St. Thomas Aquinas, of course. He has the imprimatur!

 

[greylorn]

I have just read this book, after seeing it recommended in “The Economist” weekly. It examines most of the attempted answers to this haunting question, and although Jim’s tentative answer is not very reassuring to Christians, the presentation is based on interviews with and quotes by philosophers and scientists, which makes it much more approachable than a straight, closely argued treatise. I’d be interested to swap opinions with anyone else who has read this book, or anyone who has a strong enough grounding in philosophy to feel they don’t need to read it, for that matter! (grin)

If the high price of the hardcover is an issue, you might like to note that I got it as a Kindle e-book for US$9.99. Best ten dollar’s worth I’ve had in a long time!

I have almost no grounding in philosophy, unless you want to count a post-grad course taken while my first philosophy book was winding along its formal publication path.

Grin as widely as you like, but I’ve read Hawking, Penrose, etc. and spent about 15 years in astronomy, as well as many hours in a hot tub with our local Buddhist guru, Cuban cigars, and Portuguese Port wine, I’ve waded through many a book, and am currently trudging through Consciousness and the Universe, supposedly compiled by Roger Penrose and evidently edited by a secretary just off the boat from Pakistan.

You will find lots of questions in books like Holt’s, mostly derived from his source material, but you will not find any interesting or reassuring answers.

The answers to the “first cause” cannot be found in religion, science, or any other belief system that fancies the notion that the “first cause” is singular.

 

[Tiber_Swimmer]

I have almost no grounding in philosophy, unless you want to count a post-grad course taken while my first philosophy book was winding along its formal publication path.

Grin as widely as you like, but I’ve read Hawking, Penrose, etc. and spent about 15 years in astronomy, as well as many hours in a hot tub with our local Buddhist guru, Cuban cigars, and Portuguese Port wine, I’ve waded through many a book, and am currently trudging through Consciousness and the Universe, supposedly compiled by Roger Penrose and evidently edited by a secretary just off the boat from Pakistan.

You will find lots of questions in books like Holt’s, mostly derived from his source material, but you will not find any interesting or reassuring answers.

The answers to the “first cause” cannot be found in religion, science, or any other belief system that fancies the notion that the “first cause” is singular.

I suggest you read Jim’s book. First, it looks as if you would enjoy it, and second, you might find it to be rather different from the assumptions you have made before reading it. I am only really interested in swapping opinions with people who have read the book. I apologise if I didn’t make that clear.

 

[greylorn]

I suggest you read Jim’s book. First, it looks as if you would enjoy it, and second, you might find it to be rather different from the assumptions you have made before reading it. I am only really interested in swapping opinions with people who have read the book. I apologise if I didn’t make that clear.

I ordered it yesterday, because it may propose an alternative theory to my own, and I am always interested in credible alternatives. However, it will likely be a few months before I can finish reading it— unless it is silly from the outset, as other such books have proven to be.

I’m sorry if you got the impression that I’m a philosophy newbie. Chapters from my first novel were included in Doug Hofstadter’s book, The Mind’s I, probably published when you were being potty trained. My works have been used in several classes about the nature of consciousness. My current book goes much deeper than Holt’s.

I just now scanned the amazon listing for Holt’s book and came away regretting that I’d ordered it. He devotes the first pages to himself in a flurry of flowery writing, which suggests that he has nothing to say. (Else, why not start saying it?) He’s an existentialist, therefore the follower of a bankrupt French philosophy. This is not promising. He does a lot of name dropping, which suggests that he has nothing original to offer, but is merely assembling the ideas of others in a flowery and agreeable manner and generating a conclusion-- exactly what his title implies.

Perhaps you will do me the favor of shortening my reading time (I will not wade through all that irrelevant verbiage) by pointing me to whatever meat the book might contain. It seems the least you can do for costing me nearly $20. (And I should have read the available material before ordering.)

Finally, I can certainly understand your unwillingness to discuss ideas with me. After all, why discuss ideas with someone who has written books, when you can converse with those who’ve read them?

 

[Tiber_Swimmer]

I think you misjudge, at the very least, the timing of my potty training, as I am 75 years old.

I cannot understand the contentious tone of your reply, nor why you insist on running down the book before reading it. You utterly misjudge Holt if you think he is STILL an existentialist. But then, you obviously are so well informed on matters philosophical that you don’t need to read anything before understanding it. That is a rare and very precious gift.

Why on earth did you pay double what I paid for the book? Ah, sorry. Perhaps you didn’t feel the need to read that part of my post? Your loss… But please don’t try to make me feel guilty for your extravagance.

It is not that I don’t want to dispute with YOU. I prefer not to dispute with ANYONE. And as someone interested in philosophy, and educated as a mathematical physicist, I wanted to exchange opinions with anyone who had actually read Holt’s book. If and when you have read it, and if you have opinions you feel are worth sharing, then I will be prepared to engage with you again. As this is a Catholic forum and I am a recent convert, I must admit I was hoping to get a specifically Catholic slant on these speculations. But there is very little that savours of Christ in your replies, so I was disappointed in that, too. I would particularly welcome an informed, dispassionate, and humble exchange of opinions. I am not interested in scoring debating points, even from opponents who lay themselves open to it. Please accept this as an olive branch if you really seek an exchange of opinions.

 

[greylorn]

I think you misjudge, at the very least, the timing of my potty training, as I am 75 years old.

I cannot understand the contentious tone of your reply, nor why you insist on running down the book before reading it. You utterly misjudge Holt if you think he is STILL an existentialist. But then, you obviously are so well informed on matters philosophical that you don’t need to read anything before understanding it. That is a rare and very precious gift.

Why on earth did you pay double what I paid for the book? Ah, sorry. Perhaps you didn’t feel the need to read that part of my post? Your loss… But please don’t try to make me feel guilty for your extravagance.

It is not that I don’t want to dispute with YOU. I prefer not to dispute with ANYONE. And as someone interested in philosophy, and educated as a mathematical physicist, I wanted to exchange opinions with anyone who had actually read Holt’s book. If and when you have read it, and if you have opinions you feel are worth sharing, then I will be prepared to engage with you again. As this is a Catholic forum and I am a recent convert, I must admit I was hoping to get a specifically Catholic slant on these speculations. But there is very little that savours of Christ in your replies, so I was disappointed in that, too. I would particularly welcome an informed, dispassionate, and humble exchange of opinions. I am not interested in scoring debating points, even from opponents who lay themselves open to it. Please accept this as an olive branch if you really seek an exchange of opinions.

TS,
I sure got the training timing wrong. Consider your olive branch accepted, and figuratively inserted where the sun don’t shine by way of penance.

I’m not certain what it means to be Christlike, or not. I can heal people with touch and words, and I never collect a fee. I’m good at kicking people out of figurative temples who do not belong there. I’m intolerant of hypocrisy. I propose ideas contrary to the status quo. And the most Christ-like person I’ve ever met was a Ph.D astronomer/EE who was an avowed atheist. So go figure.

I remember younger days when I served mass and held the gold-plated thingy beneath the chins of good Catholic communion recipients who’d beaten the siht out of me a week earlier, for the fun of it. I’m more inclined to evaluate people by what they actually do in life, rather than by the beliefs they profess. Seems to me that J.C. did the same, if the first 3 books of the N.T. reflect reality.

So you and I can exchange ideas responsibly and politely, my preferred style, so long as you tell me the truth. You’re off to an excellent start.

I did read your OP, twice, before replying. I do not have a “Kindle.” Years ago I read Mortimer Adler’s book, How to Read a Book, and ever since then I treat each interesting book I read as a conversation. My part of it appears in the margins, written in ink. When “Kindles” come with margins I’ll convert.

You know that I was not blaming you for my expense if you read my following comment. You are just as ornery as I am, with stylistic differences. That works for me. There’s no point trying to communicate with shmoos.

My remarkable ability to evaluate with just a bit of reading is not actually a rare or precious gift. It comes from reading lots of books that start off with a particular theme or perspective, and finding that they end with a justification of that very same theme and perspective.

If I find at the outset that a writer lacks certain perspectives, I must assume that he will lack the same perspective at the end of the book. Holt seems to have no understanding of physics, yet is proposing to discuss why the physical world exists. That is not encouraging. Holt overwrites early on. This suggests that he will overwrite throughout the book, to obfuscate his lack of serious core-level understanding.

I will be delighted to come up wrong on this preliminary assessment. Intelligent writers on the subject are welcome, but tough to find.

I’ve read several overwritten books (dubbed “elegantly crafted” by their admirers) and not a one of them has offered useful concepts that I did not already understand. That’s why I invite you to tell me where to find the meat in the book. I’m getting old, and my reading time is too limited to waste on irrelevant verbiage and background material that I already know.

Will you help me out there?

 

[Tiber_Swimmer]

Wow! What a pleasant surprise. I’m rather busy this morning but will reply later today.

One thing, though. I assume Kindles can do what my Kindle readers on iPhone and iPad can do, which is add annotations that can be shared, searched and quoted, etc. I was brought up in a home where writing in the margins of books was near sacrilege, although my favourite Bible is full of them. Go figure (grin). So there might be a Kindle in your future…

 

[greylorn]

Wow! What a pleasant surprise. I’m rather busy this morning but will reply later today.

One thing, though. I assume Kindles can do what my Kindle readers on iPhone and iPad can do, which is add annotations that can be shared, searched and quoted, etc. I was brought up in a home where writing in the margins of books was near sacrilege, although my favourite Bible is full of them. Go figure (grin). So there might be a Kindle in your future…

There will have to be, since an upcoming project is converting my book to HTML for Kindle output, and I’ll need a way to check it. I’ve been around technology for awhile, and may have used the world’s first desktop computer, if a 220# box with a 3’ square footprint that took up one half of a sturdy desk counts. But in those days, I could do my own tech support. Since Bill Gates got into the game, technology has outstripped its support, and software sucks. I can’t speak Pakistani and do not care to learn it, so I stick to off-the-used-computer-store shelf whenever possible.

Problem with Kindle is, how do I receive downloads? I’m remote.
Cell phones don’t work here. I cannot get local radio reliably, or TV at all, except via satellite. I’ll check out the options before trying one.

I like that you have a sense of humor. Let’s have some good conversations, and see what we can learn from one another.

 

[Tiber_Swimmer]

There will have to be, since an upcoming project is converting my book to HTML for Kindle output, and I’ll need a way to check it. I’ve been around technology for awhile, and may have used the world’s first desktop computer, if a 220# box with a 3’ square footprint that took up one half of a sturdy desk counts. But in those days, I could do my own tech support. Since Bill Gates got into the game, technology has outstripped its support, and software sucks. I can’t speak Pakistani and do not care to learn it, so I stick to off-the-used-computer-store shelf whenever possible.

Problem with Kindle is, how do I receive downloads? I’m remote.
Cell phones don’t work here. I cannot get local radio reliably, or TV at all, except via satellite. I’ll check out the options before trying one.

I like that you have a sense of humor. Let’s have some good conversationsB, and see what we can learn from one another.

Hmmm. That IS remote. My best friend in Japan recently invested in a company that provides broadband Internet access specifically for remote areas. So the solution may not be too many years away. The company is doing well in Canada and is looking to expand in the US. But of course there are a LOT of remote areas…sigh.

Let me know when your book becomes available. I was physical sciences editor for Japan’s largest publisher and I might even be able to help with proof-reading. At least it might keep the Pakistani (?) influence away. I’m a Brit, of course.

I must apologise for not writing as I promised this afternoon. I was so tired after recent exertions that I dropped off and woke up three hours later! Tomorrow!!

 

[greylorn]

Hmmm. That IS remote. My best friend in Japan recently invested in a company that provides broadband Internet access specifically for remote areas. So the solution may not be too many years away. The company is doing well in Canada and is looking to expand in the US. But of course there are a LOT of remote areas…sigh.

Let me know when your book becomes available. I was physical sciences editor for Japan’s largest publisher and I might even be able to help with proof-reading. At least it might keep the Pakistani (?) influence away. I’m a Brit, of course.

I must apologise for not writing as I promised this afternoon. I was so tired after recent exertions that I dropped off and woke up three hours later! Tomorrow!!

What do you mean, “…Brit, of course?” You’ve not written with a British accent until now (“apologise”). How was I to know? (Oops— could have figured it out from a comment you made about being too late or early in the day, which makes sense with a 7-hour time difference.) Works for me, though.

The book is available. Googling my name will bring up a reference, and I’ll PM you with a URL and some other queries.

 

[Tiber_Swimmer]

I already replied to your personal message. Got this message later for some reason. I am new to Catholic Answers, so didn’t spot the difference between personal and forum messages. I see I am only allowed a few (5?) personal messages. I added my mail address so you can contact me direct if you prefer.

From the comments on your book and your introduction it looks as if you may actually enjoy Holt’s book. I certainly hope so… He is not a thinker of the very first rank but he is widely read and outstanding as a journalist of ideas. His personal interviews with many of the leading thinkers today are fascinating, and the real meat of the book. At the very least it helps to tie a human voice and background to the theories we read.

Roger

 

[yppop]

I already replied to your personal message. Got this message later for some reason. I am new to Catholic Answers, so didn’t spot the difference between personal and forum messages. I see I am only allowed a few (5?) personal messages. I added my mail address so you can contact me direct if you prefer.

From the comments on your book and your introduction it looks as if you may actually enjoy Holt’s book. I certainly hope so… He is not a thinker of the very first rank but he is widely read and outstanding as a journalist of ideas. His personal interviews with many of the leading thinkers today are fascinating, and the real meat of the book. At the very least it helps to tie a human voice and background to the theories we read.

Roger

Roger
I am an avid reader and took your suggestion and am now half way through Holt’s book. I will discuss it with you (if you still want to) as soon as I am finished. So far I find the material very interesting and have many bookmarks and notes. Since you are relatively new to this forum, I thought I’d better respond so you aren’t discouraged.

I also bought Greylorn’s book and will read that next. I am familiar with his basic theory; I critiqued his web site. a couple of years ago and am anxious to discover how he blew it up into a 386 page book.

Yppop

 

[Tiber_Swimmer]

Roger
I am an avid reader and took your suggestion and am now half way through Holt’s book. I will discuss it with you (if you still want to) as soon as I am finished. So far I find the material very interesting and have many bookmarks and notes. Since you are relatively new to this forum, I thought I’d better respond so you aren’t discouraged.

I also bought Greylorn’s book and will read that next. I am familiar with his basic theory; I critiqued his web site. a couple of years ago and am anxious to discover how he blew it up into a 386 page book.

Yppop

I am delighted to think that someone who shares my faith also shares an interest in some of the philosophical questions arising these days (not to mention the questions that have always been a part of the human situation). I have a couple of books I must finish before I get around to Greylorn’s book, which promises to be very interesting. It will be a pleasure to exchange views with you. And yes, I AM encouraged by a second response. Thank you!

 

[Bradski]

That’s why I invite you to tell me where to find the meat in the book.

It’s a series of interviews. You have to read each one as each one is a summary of different viewpoints.

I’d recommend the Kindle. You should be able to get some sort of internet connection that would be suitable unless you’re out in the wilds of Kansas or somehere equably remote.