Why doesn’t God cure amputees?

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Psalm89

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This question was raised by Sparetherod in another thread and in this thread I will discuss this idea and actually show it to be a straw man argument against miracles and prayer. It is framed as such:
  1. People have serious disabilities, like loss of limb.
  2. People pray for healing of disabilities and sickness.
  3. Some people get well from sickness like cancer, but no one has ever grown a new hand in modern times that was empirically tested.
  4. For some reason God heals the cancer patients sometimes but never the amputees as far as modern, empirical science knows.
  5. This demonstrates that one or more of the following:
    a. Edifying prayer as no effect or is limited.
    b. God is either not omnipotent, omniscient, all good, or any combination thereof.
    c. God does not exist.
Furthermore Sparetherod says that he would possibly believe in miracles if either he personally witnessed somebody grow a limb, or it was well documented in a public setting like a stadium.

I am going to make an assumption that should be accurate. Sparetherod does not accept any miracle from the bible or other ancient sources since they cannot be empirically tested with modern scientific instruments and they took place a long time ago. If he did accept the premise then Jesus did fix an appendage after Peter cut off a soldier’s ear and miracles are real and Jesus is who he claimed to be.

Scenario 1: In a doctor’s private practice a man comes in one week and for the flu. This man lost his hand in an industrial accident sometime in the past. A week later he sets up another appointment and has a new hand. The man claims it to be a miracle though; he did not witness it actually happen and woke up with a new hand.

This miracle is easily debunked: It could be a setup as he could have had a cap over one hand. The doctor might have gotten the man confused for somebody else. The doctor might have been taking some medication, be psychotic, have a brain tumor, or be lying about the entire ordeal. Furthermore, nobody actually witnessed the miracle. Even if the doctor had thoroughly examined the man before hand, had pictures, and sworn testimony it would not be sufficient since nobody actually saw it happen. Since this has never been proven to happen empirically, and is a one-time occurrence, ockam’s razor would help us to conclude it is a fraud. Perhaps the doctor caught it on tape as it actually happened, witnessing the entire episode? The next section will deal with this.

Scenario 2: The stadium full of 50 amputees that are miraculously healed. This stadium is filled with 20,000 people including 100 respected doctors and scientists, and 20 video cameras capturing the results. The amputees have been verified as amputees. It is the “big test”, to finally prove that God exists. The Christians, Muslims and others start praying for the amputees. Suddenly a white fire appears over the stadium and in a loud booming voice God apparently says, “I am God, I exist, and now will heal these people.” Within a span of five minutes everyone is healed and new limbs that were never there now exist. A miracle no doubt! An atheist doctor is there, capturing the details, and is then convinced of God’s existence. For the sake of argument he then goes on to become a Muslim thinking it to be the most accurate of the religions about God.
 
Now we fast-forward 30 years into the future. The doctor from the stadium is an old man and his nephew is about to graduate from a prestigious medical school. The old doctor is a devout and content Muslim. We pick up the dialogue there:

The nephew gives the uncle a hug, “Uncle! It is so good to see you.”

“I’m glad to see you too, nephew. So what brings you buy an old man’s home?”

“Well I wanted to talk to you about the Big Miracle you told me about as a child that you witnessed before I was born,” replies the nephew.

“I’d love too, Allah be praised! What a wonderful day that was.”

“Well, I’m having doubts uncle. I mean I want to believe, but I’ve been learning some things.”

“Really?” says the surprised uncle. “I thought you believed in God and this was one of the reasons you did.”

“Let me explain, uncle.”

They both take a seat by the fire and drink coffee as they chat.

“I’ve seen the tape a dozen times,” says the nephew. “I’ve talked to witnesses like you that were there, and seen the supposed scientific evidence of the supernatural.”

“Supposed? You think the evidence is fake?”

“No, it accurately reports that people grew limbs back. What I don’t believe is that it is a miracle or supernatural.”

“How could this be? This was the big event, and it changed the world. Christians, Muslims and Jews stopped fighting. We all agree there is one true God and now the learned theologians are in a process of figuring out the right theology. Most other religions, like Hinduism acknowledge the miracle and relations between pantheists and theists have never been better. Atheism declined slightly, but some people don’t trust science even if they are atheist. Besides, since that day, the miracles have continued as more limbs have been re-grown.”

“Well,” says the nephew, “let me give you another scenario and the problems as I see it. Dear uncle you know that I am a man of science, not superstition, and you taught me to be skeptical of extraordinary claims.”

“Yes, of course. I have faith in Allah, but I have good evidence, scientific and historical, mind you, to back up my belief.”

“Let’s take a look at the evidence then,” said the nephew. “We will look at all of it. Not just the documented activity that day, but the historical, psychological, political, and sociological evidences.

“First the psychological evidence, you were raised Catholic, lost your faith and now have become Muslim. When surveys were done of the doctors and scientists at the stadium that day over 80% were raised in a theistic household, though 60% were atheists at the time of the miracle. After the miracle, another survey was done a year later and 80 out of the 100 were theists of some type and 15 more were agnostic. That means that 5% did not change their mind after seeing this. Truly if God was there how could they not all believe? Modern psychologists believe their objectivity was tainted because they had a predilection to believe in God which was conditioned by their childhood experiences.”

“So five of the 100 didn’t believe?” quipped the uncle. “Well that is their choice, but I know what I saw. It also means that 95 did believe and that is a good percentage. And what about the 20,000 members of the public?”

“Psychologists believed their bias of the public is even greater because 80% were theists beforehand and so their opinions are suspect. Furthermore 2% did not believe after one year and 8% did not believe after 10 years with 24% questioning what they really did see was real come 20 years later.” Said the nephew. “Which brings me to my next point.”

“We must take this event in historical context. 2005 was a psychologically stressful year as there were a great number of natural disasters and a potential war was brewing between Christians and Muslims. The Iraq war, the riots in Europe were getting out of hand. People wanted to believe in God. Many Americans believed the earth to be only 5000 years old; more money was spent on fortunetellers than psychologists, most did not believe global warming was true, 60% believed in ESP and 40% believed in astrology! Truly it was a superstitious time. The world was ripe for a “spiritual revival” based upon some event. Furthermore some historians propose the following: A few of the 100 scientists who set this event up were actually in charge of fooling everyone. Through the use of psychotropic drugs, mass hypnosis, meme implants, psychological evaluation of the people brought to the event, and clever use of sound and noise the people were fooled.”
 
“Come on now! I was there! I know what I saw, besides why would they do such a thing? What would be the point?” responded the uncle.

“Power and peace. In Machiavelli’s, Prince, the ends justify the means. Most people commonly think that Bush lied about the WMD’s at the time and the justification for the war in Iraq. The party in power was losing power. His advisors came up with this plan to control the mid-east region and to instill a quasi-theocracy in the United States. You don’t deny the fact that prayer has returned to school and abortion is now illegal in most cases? And that atheists are seen as fools?”

“Yes, prayer returned to school and abortion is immoral. I don’t know if atheists are viewed as fools per say, but they are smaller minority now.” Said the uncle.

“Remember three years ago that congressman actually tried to pass a law to outlaw atheistic teaching? It thankfully failed, but the prayer in school and abortion were part of the radical Right’s, Christian plan. We are on our way to a theocracy and people don’t even know it.”

“But what about the evidence?”

“You recently saw Galactic Wars IV yesterday, correct? Did you realize that 80% of the characters were actually computer generated and that people can no longer tell? This immediately brings all videotapes to be suspect. Even at the beginning of this century special effects were sufficient to doctor the tapes. As time has gone on, many experts think the “official” tapes have been tampered with to perpetuate the myth. In the stadium itself the white fire was simply pyrotechnics combined with drugs and the voice came from hidden loud speakers. Do you actually believe that God speaks in English with an American accent? How did a natural camera pick up a supernatural entity like God? The scientific documents themselves are suspect as well. Since nobody can get to the original printed pieces without special permission, so all we have to go by is the digital files on the Internet. Who actually believes what is on the Internet? A child with the right program can make an excellent facsimile of a document from 2005. Just think of the fraud that be brought about now by a real expert.”

“What about the limbs? They grew back and have continued to do so!” the uncle desperately says.

“Evolution, uncle. Don’t tell me you think that “God dun it”? That idea is what the Intelligent Design proponents teach and tell their students. We know that we originally descended from amphibians of some type. Everyone knows that a lizard or worm can grow a tail back and doesn’t think it is a miracle. Part of the fraud was introducing a DNA retrovirus that activated some junk DNA. It was fast acting and made the limbs come back. That is why the limbs continue to come back today on certain people, world wide, starting from that stadium. The patients in the stadium were picked because preliminary tests showed the virus would work on them. There is no supernatural event taking place when the limbs come back as far as any empirical test can show.”

“A retrovirus did it? I’m a doctor and I’ve never—“

“You’ve been retired for years and haven’t kept up with the progress I’m afraid. Even if we can’t explain it all doesn’t mean we should believe in the supernatural, but instead believe in what you used to, namely the power of science. Also, your belief in a high power had made you intellectually lazy. Since you just assumed that your immediate senses and conventional authority told you God exists it made you stop using your brain. With all due respect uncle, you are believing in fairy tales from an ancient book now!”

“Look, I know what I saw. Many other people saw it as well! The best scientists of the day confirmed it, and only then did I believe that the prophet Mohammed’s words were true. Not before!”
 
“You don’t even see the flaws in your logic now. It’s sad really. Didn’t God say in the bible not to test him? So it can’t be God unless He’s a liar or actually a devil. Besides, curing 50 amputees isn’t much of a miracle considering God is all-powerful. Why’d He stop there? Why not eliminate all lost limbs, let alone poverty, sickness and war? Remember when you were an atheist that you didn’t believe in the miracles in the Torah or Koran? Suddenly you do. One event, just one event, and then all reason is tossed aside and suddenly you believe in the invisible sky wizard with this angels and demons. Which is more likely, a miracle from God at the stadium or mass hysteria combined with psychotropic drugs? There are drugs now that leave the body in minutes. Who knows what the government had? What’s next? Leprechauns and unicorns? Perhaps I will pray to the Great Pink Unicorn and it will heal my illness? Maybe if we filmed it a stadium then the Unicorn will be real? I think not. The events at the stadium can all be explained without supernatural events as I have just shown. Even if I am wrong it doesn’t mean that somewhere down the road we won’t know, or can’t know! Your belief in God tells science to stop looking for answers. I beg you to see the real world uncle, the world where there is no magic being in the sky, no life after death, no discernable point to anything. Only from this vantage point can we make real progress for humanity. You are tied into an ancient superstition that has no meaning in today’s modern world.”

“I…I thought it was real. I mean my senses told me it was, and my friends who were scientists thought it was too. I just don’t know now. I thought I had found my place in the universe and Allah was soon to take me to his paradise,” the uncle said sadly.

“That is why I came to see you today. I didn’t want you to perpetuate your myth unto death. I wanted you to face reality and the coming oblivion with your held high and not bent to a mythical god. My student friends and I have formed a non-profit organization to debunk the Great Miracle and have a website and literature that deals with this. I’ve loaded it on your laptop so you can look at the real evidence. You must be strong, uncle. Just because there is no point to anything doesn’t mean we give up. The strong man realizes that life will soon end, but keeps on living in defiance of the inevitable death, and thanks to the advances in medicine we hope to postpone that death by at least 110 years.”

The nephew gives his uncle a hug and then leaves the old man to his thoughts and the fire.
 
I did a quick web search and the closest I could find to a miracle of the regrow of a limb was the restoration of the man with the withered hand and those who were lame in the NT. In the OT there’s the raising of the dead bones to living men. I don’t know why there have been no solid cases of restored limbs, however. I could only guess why. Although, the Gospels also tell us that Jesus healed all who came to him, so he may have restored lost limbs as a part of his ministry. Since we aren’t told that, though I don’t think we can assume it.

OTOH, I have never heard of anyone seriously praying to have a lost limb restored. I would hesitate to extrapolate anything from that on God’s side of the question, but it may be that those who have lost a limb have accepted it as irrevocable, which might be a function of the human psyche to deal with it. For a disease causes a constant sense of something needing to be cured, while the loss of a limb doesn’t.
 
I never thought about this before. I suppose I always thought the miracle occurred when the person either born without a limb or limbs or the person whose limb(s) were amputated was able to maintain their life the same as a person with all of their limbs. Also, we have seen advances in modern medicine that are miracles: prosthetics and even transpantation!

However, I think you answer the question correctly. Even if we were to witness something with our very own eyes, the people we tell will still doubt us and maybe even cause us to doubt what we saw.

This reminds me of a conversation I had about whether or not the Bible contained “codes”. A good friend of mine said, "is the message given in the Bible not good enough that we have to look for some hidden meaning? Even if God sent us a tape recording of his voice, would be play it backwards to find the “true” meaning?
 
I think part of the answer lies in the saying that God’s ways are not our ways. We know, from scripture God can and has cured amputees, think about at Jesus’ arrest in the garden when He replaced the ear cut off by Peter.

But going back to my point, it seems with any tradgy such as loosing an arm or leg, or coming down with a terrible deadly desease, God often acts through the trama an produces a greater good. I use as my example the all to many stories of the great courage given us each day by those in our armed forces (women and men) who have lost a limb(s) or other serious wounds yet continue with their lives and whose rehibilitation is a true mircle given to each of us. And I am sure all of us have the experience in our lives where another’s injury or desease and their response to it becomes an example and mircle for others, I know I have.
 
I would like to think that those who have lost limbs and have flourished, first of all have realized that they are more than just someone who is missing an appendage.
They are still themselves. Their being is who they are, body, soul and spirit. And they desire others to recognize themselves as that as well. Children do this very well. They don’t see the disfigurement as a burden…they just recognize the humanity buried under it all.
Maybe that’s what we should recognize as well, to look beyond what they don’t have and look at what they do!
Maybe that’s why God doesn’t usually grant those kinds of miracles.
God bless us all!
 
Yeah, i’d like to say that Jesus performed miracles all the time back in the day and many refused to believe because it was too difficult for them to change and some just thought it was a hoax or demonic. God is our father and like any good parent, He wants us to grow on our own and do stuff for ourselves. He came down from heaven, was tortured and died for us, and then gave us a Church to guide us to Him. What more can He do without taking our free will? Some people will never believe, some will believe but not care, and some will believe and do everything they can to do His will in their lifetimes. This is the way it would be even if Jesus personally appeared to everyone every day working miracles and teaching parables.
Also, the above poster who said that thing about God wanting people to learn how to fluorish with disabilities had a really good point. 😉
 
Psalm89 said:
“You don’t even see the flaws in your logic now. It’s sad really. Didn’t God say in the bible not to test him? So it can’t be God unless He’s a liar or actually a devil. Besides, curing 50 amputees isn’t much of a miracle considering God is all-powerful. Why’d He stop there? Why not eliminate all lost limbs, let alone poverty, sickness and war? Remember when you were an atheist that you didn’t believe in the miracles in the Torah or Koran? Suddenly you do. One event, just one event, and then all reason is tossed aside and suddenly you believe in the invisible sky wizard with this angels and demons. Which is more likely, a miracle from God at the stadium or mass hysteria combined with psychotropic drugs? There are drugs now that leave the body in minutes. Who knows what the government had? What’s next? Leprechauns and unicorns? Perhaps I will pray to the Great Pink Unicorn and it will heal my illness? Maybe if we filmed it a stadium then the Unicorn will be real? I think not. The events at the stadium can all be explained without supernatural events as I have just shown. Even if I am wrong it doesn’t mean that somewhere down the road we won’t know, or can’t know! Your belief in God tells science to stop looking for answers. I beg you to see the real world uncle, the world where there is no magic being in the sky, no life after death, no discernable point to anything. Only from this vantage point can we make real progress for humanity. You are tied into an ancient superstition that has no meaning in today’s modern world.”

“I…I thought it was real. I mean my senses told me it was, and my friends who were scientists thought it was too. I just don’t know now. I thought I had found my place in the universe and Allah was soon to take me to his paradise,” the uncle said sadly.

“That is why I came to see you today. I didn’t want you to perpetuate your myth unto death. I wanted you to face reality and the coming oblivion with your held high and not bent to a mythical god. My student friends and I have formed a non-profit organization to debunk the Great Miracle and have a website and literature that deals with this. I’ve loaded it on your laptop so you can look at the real evidence. You must be strong, uncle. Just because there is no point to anything doesn’t mean we give up. The strong man realizes that life will soon end, but keeps on living in defiance of the inevitable death, and thanks to the advances in medicine we hope to postpone that death by at least 110 years.”

The nephew gives his uncle a hug and then leaves the old man to his thoughts and the fire.
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Dang Psalm,
You for sure arn’t at a loss for words!
 
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Psalm89:
Furthermore Sparetherod says that he would possibly believe in miracles if either he personally witnessed somebody grow a limb, or it was well documented in a public setting like a stadium.
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How intellectually dishonest!

IOW: “I’ll believe in God as soon as he rides a unicycle across a stage right in front of me while juggling flaming torches!”

http://home.houston.rr.com/mchance3/rolleyes.gif

– Mark L. Chance.
 
This is my take.

At the outset I thought this is a very intriguing premise. And there is validity in the idea that for some people there can never be “proof” of miracles. But, as soon as you injected the anti-science you lost credibility. Having read through the whole composition, I soon recognized it to be just another anti-science argument. Thinly veiled and as absurd as the allegations of the absurdity of scientific evidence and method it suggests. Still, your argument is very creatively composed. But, is itself, a “straw man”.

Great science fiction short story! Philosphically stimulating.
 
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coyote:
This is my take.

At the outset I thought this is a very intriguing premise. And there is validity in the idea that for some people there can never be “proof” of miracles. But, as soon as you injected the anti-science you lost credibility. Having read through the whole composition, I soon recognized it to be just another anti-science argument. Thinly veiled and as absurd as the allegations of the absurdity of scientific evidence and method it suggests. Still, your argument is very creatively composed. But, is itself, a “straw man”.

Great science fiction short story! Philosphically stimulating.
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I didn’t realize that I was be anti-science. I had two main points to my post: one is that if you’ve made up your mind about miracles not being possible than no proof is ever enough, and two that things that seem “scientific” such as the nephews arguement against the miracle are actually pseudo-science and wild conjecture. In my mind the nephew was on par with people who believe the moon landings didn’t happen. Perhaps I am still missing the boat and if you want to point out specifics I would appreciate it to correct my reasoning.
 
God answers the prayers of all amputees who want their limbs back. He just makes them wait for their prayer to anwered. When they die and their bodies are ressurected and glorified and joined to their souls in heaven, they will all have their limbs back.
 
ready said:
God answers the prayers of all amputees who want their limbs back. He just makes them wait for their prayer to anwered. When they die and their bodies are ressurected and glorified and joined to their souls in heaven, they will all have their limbs back.
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I agree. One other thought…cancer is, if not cured (be it by miracle or otherwise), a death sentence. Missing a limb generally isn’t. We are given our crosses to help us better serve God to to eventually get to Him. God knows what we need to make it there, and if someone who He knows will need more time than the cancer will give him (maybe not to make themselves right, but to bring others to Him), that might be a possible circumstance where He cures them. It’s all just speculation on my part…As others have pointed out, God’s ways are not our ways and His reasons are His own. But really, I think that equating a deadly disease with a situation that reduces quality of life while still allowing that person to live without fear of death is an unfair comparison.

HD
 
the story said:
I beg you to see the real world uncle, the world where there is no magic being in the sky, no life after death, no discernable point to anything.
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The problem with “facing reality” is that everything that had “reality” all over it pointed to the existence of God.
One event, just one event, and then all reason is tossed aside and suddenly you believe in the invisible sky wizard with this angels and demons.
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That’s interesting. If there was evidence of the existence of God, here it was, plain and obvious, and that’s not enough? But this proof was taken as non-proof.

The story proves too much. It shows that you can never know what reality is. The only reality is what we don’t question, and as long as we question, there cannot be any reality.
Which is more likely, a miracle from God at the stadium or mass hysteria combined with psychotropic drugs?
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Was there any such proof given? Sounds like he comes up with a possible explanation but does not test it. Then rejects the original miracle. One event, just one event (another thought pops into the mind), and then all reason is tossed aside.

So we are to test the miracle but not to test this new thought that popped into the mind?
Your belief in God tells science to stop looking for answers.
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Maybe for Islam, but not for Catholics.

===============

The moral of the story is that there are those who, by rejecting the Ultimate Reality (God), reject any form of reality.

Another moral is that for those who refuse to believe, no amount of evidence will convince them.
 
Handsome_Danger said:
I agree. One other thought…cancer is, if not cured (be it by miracle or otherwise), a death sentence. Missing a limb generally isn’t. We are given our crosses to help us better serve God to to eventually get to Him. God knows what we need to make it there, and if someone who He knows will need more time than the cancer will give him (maybe not to make themselves right, but to bring others to Him), that might be a possible circumstance where He cures them. It’s all just speculation on my part…As others have pointed out, God’s ways are not our ways and His reasons are His own. But really, I think that equating a deadly disease with a situation that reduces quality of life while still allowing that person to live without fear of death is an unfair comparison.

HD
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Yes, you have made some good points. Also the two scenerios (missing a limb and a death sentence) are both meant to help us better serve God and lead us to Him, but suffering from impending death is not a great comparison to suffering a missing limb.
 
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