T
tgGodsway
Guest
Why would non-Catholic Christian Church need to convert? Convert to Christ? Convert to the teachings of the apostles, prophets and Jesus Christ himself?
- Status
D
Dlee
Guest
I don’t know the answer to your question. @Tis_Bearself provided a well-thought out answer. You say your mom is very frail and that can factor in - I think the aging process can affect our levels of comprehension. I see it in my own mom. Still a staunch Baptist, she “knows” why she is Baptist, but cannot put it into words or explain it. It is very frustrating for her when she challenges my conversion. The older we become, we get set in our ways and don’t like change. The bottom line is that God knows your mom’s heart and that’s what matters.
O
OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
There is a talk on the Beatitudes by Fr Ripperger that talks of the works and fruits of the Holy Spirit. I will put the link here.
Do you remember the interaction between Pope Francis and the little boy who asked if his atheist father was in heaven? The little boy’s father had all his children baptised and ensured they were open to the sanctifying grace of God. Pope Francis answered that his father , although he did not believe, had done a very good thing for his children ( not an exact quote ). This reminds me of your mother, she does not believe in Catholicism, but she has a deep faith and has taught you about God.
The first sentences of the Shema, a prayer the Israelites pray devoutly and have done throughout history.
‘Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God is the one God. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart’
Last edited:
M
meltzerboy2
Guest
If we are good people in our actions toward others, not just our thoughts and feelings about others, we ARE praising G-d by our loving deeds. That does not mean religion is unimportant (I don’t think that is what the other poster meant) but maybe not quite as important as how we lead our lives in relation to other people. Faith, yes, and hope too, but love (in our behavior) above all.
Speaking only for myself, it is very difficult to keep from murmuring at why the Holy Spirit allows people to remain outside of the Catholic Church, while prompting them to follow Christ and seek His will in their lives.
If the Catholic Church is the one true church — and I believe it is — it is hard to understand why the Holy Spirit doesn’t always “bring it all the way home”. Is not God omnipotent?
A great mystery.
If the Catholic Church is the one true church — and I believe it is — it is hard to understand why the Holy Spirit doesn’t always “bring it all the way home”. Is not God omnipotent?
A great mystery.
M
meltzerboy2
Guest
Have you not heard of the “leap of faith”? That leap, the final step in the process, is designed to be performed by us although the process of faith is initiated by G-d. For some, the leap of faith is a little beyond their power. And, as another poster reminded me, although G-d is omnipotent, that does not mean He always reveals His omnipotence.
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I understand your point, and it is one that has been coming up regularly for my entire life. Of course God would prefer someone who didn’t go to church but was kind to others over someone who went to church but was otherwise unkind and judgmental and selfish. (Taken to extremes, some people think that pretty much everybody who goes to church is unkind/ judgmental/ selfish.)
The problem is that this view, even when not taken to extremes, quickly morphs into “church isn’t important” or “religion isn’t important” and you find yourself in a world of Universalism or “not religious, but spiritual”.
Living your life right and being kind to others is important.
Church/ religion is also part of living your life right, and is also important.
That doesn’t mean we go around telling others they’re going to Hell for not being Catholic, but it does mean that we put a high value on being a good Catholic.
And there’s nothing wrong with that. I am not directing this at you personally, but I feel that many of the non-Catholic posters who come here are constantly trying to devalue our Catholicism and say it does not matter, when in reality it is a major reason many of us are on the forum and perhaps still on the planet in general.
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s clearer what you mean now, but why do you think the Holy Spirit “tends to favor the charismatic”? They just talk about it more. The Holy Spirit is working in all kinds of people who don’t go around announcing the Holy Spirit did thus and so. The Holy Spirit worked in me to get me to return to church after a long absence, and I’m not charismatic.
H
Hume
Guest
Full disclosure, I’m a secularist.
As such when I see religious conversions, I tend to see them occur involving charismatic speakers regardless what the religion is. It’s why the church with the hip, attractive and charismatic leader is more likely to grow than the one led by someone nice but boring.
It’s sales, to be frank. If a social organization wants to grow, it needs to invest in its marketing. Charismatic speakers are a huge part of that. Now, much of it is natural talent, imo. But much of it can be trained.
Just trying to offer an emotionally uninvolved opinion.
As such when I see religious conversions, I tend to see them occur involving charismatic speakers regardless what the religion is. It’s why the church with the hip, attractive and charismatic leader is more likely to grow than the one led by someone nice but boring.
It’s sales, to be frank. If a social organization wants to grow, it needs to invest in its marketing. Charismatic speakers are a huge part of that. Now, much of it is natural talent, imo. But much of it can be trained.
Just trying to offer an emotionally uninvolved opinion.
Last edited:
C
Christianbook
Guest
It may seem that way but you never know. Some people dont open their hearts until they are in their last days on earth. Some even have seconds before death and begin to talk to the lord. Its easy to see everything and judge superficially. But you never ever know. My boyfriend was strictly not a believer. I prayed everyday to open his heart. Even when I took him to church I felt he would be angry. Yet I found him, alone praying. My friend who grew up athiest and is strongly atheist, one day I found a bible story book in her room. I asked why she read it and she said she was curious. Superficially we can say “God, I pray for those to turn to you and open their hearts to you but I domt see it happen. Why?” But you dont live with these people. You dont read what is on their minds. The lord said everyone is invited to heaven no matter how late to the party you are. Its not up to you to pick their time, it is the lord. Someone might have grown up rebellious and the lord may have struggled to get to them but eventually he will reach them. Even if it is on their death bed. You dont know truly what is in their head and what is in their hearts. Their relationship with the Lord isnt for show. Its what is within. What she says to you might not always be true. Because like my athiest friend who has picked on my religion and tore it. Hurt me multiple tines even, had her curiosity that she kept secret. If it wasnt for me snooping throughout her books, I would have not known about her curiosity
Last edited:
1
1Lord1Faith
Guest
I’m not so sure it’s a great mystery.
When Jesus was being crucified, people were asking why he would not come down from the cross if he’s God (omnipotent).
We have to ask ourselves if it’s our will that be done, or God’s will that be done. You have said in your post that the Holy Spirit works and sanctifies outside of the Church. The Church teaches the same. So is it really that much of a mystery?
A
annad347
Guest
Respectfully, maybe the Catholic church wasn’t the church The Holy Spirit lead her too… maybe.
P
PetraG
Guest
It has to happen occasionally (because there are over 400,000 priests in the world), but it is far more common that the priests ask for volunteers and only the women are willing to do it. I have never heard of a priest turning down volunteers because they were men.
Last edited:
1
1Lord1Faith
Guest
To start with, we’re talking about the Catholic Church which isn’t a social organization. It’s a religious one that has, of course, a social element to it. So, the social element is not the most important thing there.
In addition to that, good attendance, or lack of it, at a Catholic church has much more to do with location and demographics than anything else. It’s also great to have a priest who is a good speaker, but that doesn’t really have a huge bearing on attendance. The overall demeanor of a priest has more bearing on attendance than whether or not he is a boring homilist.
Protestant churches may be different. Maybe a Protestant can chime in about that.
Last edited:
H
Hume
Guest
You’re talking to someone who isn’t convinced there’s a god, so churches are social organizations.
I’m merely suggesting the apostle Paul’s mantra to be all things to all people. Now he was a salesman for his faith.
I’m merely suggesting the apostle Paul’s mantra to be all things to all people. Now he was a salesman for his faith.
1
1Lord1Faith
Guest
I appreciate your perspective. But you’ll have to forgive me if I don’t take it as reality.
Where are you getting that St. Paul was “all things to all people” from? St. Paul was largely known for cementing the faith of believers and helping to establish Church administration. He was not necessarily known for his ability to please large amounts of people. He was run out of some places if not many places. He was nearly killed for disrupting communities.
Last edited:
M
MarthaSo
Guest
Thank you for sharing and your empathy 
O
OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
Amen to this. Attending two funerals recently, one family, one not, the outlaw bikies showed up , in their colors, to both funerals, to pay their respects and to pray for their dead friend, at a Catholic Requiem Funeral Mass. They could have only attended the burial and the wake, but nope, they sat or stood in the Cathedral and prayed along with everyone else. No doubt we judge superficially on words and clothing, we do not know what is in the heart of a person, or where they are on their faith journey. Only God knows. God is the author of life and each of us.
L
Lenny
Guest
O
OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
Actually , St Paul failed many times, especially amongst the Jewish people, that is why he started preaching to the Gentiles. They would also come to Jewish Synagogues, and would listen to him. He was chased out of towns, persecuted and eventually martyred.
The Catholic Church is not an organisation that can sell itself. It is about faith, not self accolades or money or numbers on pews.
5 true believers who attend to the will of God and love God above all else, will make the church stronger and healthier then 5 000 who then go on to worship at the buddhist or hindu or evangelical temples down the road.
Last edited:
- Status