Why doesn’t the Holy Spirit move everyone to Catholicism?

[Hume]

I think Paul’s “all things to all people” bit was in thessalonians, iirc.

Google away, it’ll be in your first few hits.

 

[Rozellelily]

This is what I wondered also regarding the OP’s mother.
My own elderly mother is not very interested in going to Church etc and I think it is because of negative experiences that have happened and misunderstandings.
My mum was raised in Slavic Europe country and the type of preaching in Church was often about people going to hellfire etc…
This, and seeing hypocrisies etc I think has put her off.

However, when there was a kind priest with a good nature (who was not stern or angry etc) who helped me, my mother gave money to him generously for the Church even though he tried to refuse, she insisted.

OP: God knows better than we know and please have peace that he knows your mum’s experiences, misunderstandings about the Catholic Churches teachings, her knowledge level etc…
I read somewhere that it is said that a person can be Catholic without “officially being” Catholic…

I with you and your family a Merry Christmas.

 

[Hume]

Sure Paul failed a lot. Most rockstar salesmen do. Part of the job.

Fact remains he was Christianity’s first superstar. His acclaim rivaled Peter’s, he was such a charismatic guy.

The universals to sales and growth aren’t rocket science. You just have to do them.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Attending two funerals recently, one family, one not, the outlaw bikies showed up , in their colors, to both funerals, to pay their respects and to pray for their dead friend, at a Catholic Requiem Funeral Mass. They could have only attended the burial and the wake, but nope, they sat or stood in the Cathedral and prayed along with everyone else.

As long as the clothing is modest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with bikers coming to Mass in dress which reflects this subculture.

You have said in your post that the Holy Spirit works and sanctifies outside of the Church.

Did I say that?

I do not deny that the Holy Spirit goes wherever He goes, and the typical explanation is that often He cannot penetrate or transcend the religious and cultural biases of those who seek God and Christ outside the Catholic Church. That makes sense, and that very well may be. Why He doesn’t always, as I put it, “bring it all the way home” — inspire these people to seek unity with the Catholic Church and accept her truths — is indeed a mystery.

I hesitate to get into my own spiritual awakening (over 40 years ago), but I had a palpable physical and spiritual manifestation in my own body and soul, and from what others have said of similar manifestations, it was indeed the Holy Spirit. (No, I didn’t speak in tongues, it was just a burst of energy, not unlike being electrocuted and surviving it.) I did not hear Him say to me “know that I am God and that I want you to become a Catholic, for it is the one true Church”. That came later through more subtle events that unfolded. I had no cultural or religious biases against it, nothing in my background or upbringing that “ran interference” — I was basically a blank slate.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

As long as the clothing is modest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with bikers coming to Mass in dress which reflects this subculture.

The issue of modesty was not brought up in my post. These 1%ers were in full outlaw regalia. Club emblems and all. It was kind of touching.

Fact remains he was Christianity’s first superstar

I would give that claim to fame to Jesus.

The universals to sales and growth aren’t rocket science. You just have to do them

The Church is not focussed on sales.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

OK, I don’t really know what your being a “secularist” has to do with this because “secularist” is defined as someone who wants separation of church and state. We already pretty much have that in USA although I am sure secularists would say we need more of it.

First of all, most people do not convert in some big charismatic way. Most people convert quietly, without fanfare, and you never see them doing it. A lot of them convert as part of getting married for example.

Second, when people join one of these megachurches you’re talking about, they aren’t necessarily “converting” because a lot of them were already Christian and it’s just a matter of deciding to attend a new or different church. A lot of Christians, particularly Evangelicals, will attend wherever they like the minister or service, but they don’t convert - their beliefs are essentially the same and it’s just a matter of whether they go to services at the church with Minister A or the one with Minister B.

Catholicism on the other hand has a fairly lengthy process for people joining the church, so the “salesmanship” of the charismatic preacher is only going to go so far. A person who converts needs to be in it for the long haul, and that’s not going to come from a good speaker selling them on the religion. Usually it comes from the person taking a long time to decide that the Catholic Church is really the true Church and that Jesus is truly present in the flesh there. Or it happens because the person has a Catholic spouse.

 

[Seekingthetruth]

I’m merely suggesting the apostle Paul’s mantra to be all things to all people. Now he was a salesman for his faith.

Perhaps you’re referring to “Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings” (1 Corinthians 9:19–23).
I don’t think it was so much of being “a salesman” as it was about being culturally sensitive when trying to share the gospel. While I don’t disagree it seems sellsman-like, i think it’s just being respectful when you attempt to put yourself in the shoes of another in an attempt to reach them.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

As long as the clothing is modest, there is absolutely nothing wrong with bikers coming to Mass in dress which reflects this subculture.

I only brought this up because some biker clothing for women is excessively tight (I have in mind leather or jean slacks). I intended no offense, but I will not apologize for defending modesty in dress. Our society has degenerated to the point where it is accepted for women to wear clothing that clings so closely to all areas of the body that it is, for all practical purposes, like being naked and clothed at the same time. (I will refrain from a more graphic description.)

First of all, most people do not convert in some big charismatic way. Most people convert quietly, without fanfare, and you never see them doing it. A lot of them convert as part of getting married for example.

I am always skeptical of conversions that take place prior to marriage. If I were the priest receiving the non-Catholic partner into the Church, I would try to find a way, perhaps with humor, to challenge the partner to explain how they would proceed with their conversion even if their intended spouse dumped them and took up with someone else.

Conversions that take place many years into a mixed marriage, where the Catholic spouse has borne witness to the Faith throughout the years and the non-Catholic spouse has become gradually persuaded of the truth of Catholicism, are entirely unproblematical.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

I only brought this up because some biker clothing for women is excessively tight (I have in mind leather or jean slacks).

Be at peace, you did not offend. The 1%ers are one of the last bastions of politically incorrect membership. Women cannot be members or wear colors. They can be wives and girlfriends though.
So think bikie males in colors (picture any notorious outlaw group) respectfully saying goodbye to the deceased in the Requiem Mass.

Amen to that!

The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. Pray for the conversion of these men

 

[HomeschoolDad]

And there’s nothing wrong with that. I am not directing this at you personally, but I feel that many of the non-Catholic posters who come here are constantly trying to devalue our Catholicism and say it does not matter, when in reality it is a major reason many of us are on the forum and perhaps still on the planet in general.

I have noticed this as well. I am not directing this at any poster in particular, and certainly not at the poster to whom TBS is replying, but occasionally we will get a poster on CAF who seems to be trying to “save us from ourselves”, to argue against certain aspects of the Catholic Faith, and to get us to change our minds. I think it is one of the great strengths of CAF that a wide diversity of opinion is tolerated, and there is no “litmus test” for being a participant. We welcome people of any religion and no religion at all. They have a very huge amount of latitude and, if I am understanding CAF’s rules correctly, are only suspended, banned, or have their posts edited or deleted when they go way, way “out of bounds”.

Just speaking for myself, over the years, as society has degenerated further and further, I have become a kind of “Catholic Unitarian” — this is not a reference to faith or spirituality, but rather, it is virtually impossible for anyone to suggest anything that will shock me. I will let anyone “have their say”. Euthanasia? Putting to death children already born, as ethicist Peter Singer suggests? Worship of Satan? Explain yourself. Defend your point of view. “You must have a very good reason for thinking that, why don’t you explain it to me, and try to persuade me?” That is not to say I will agree with you, but put it out there for the whole world, and let your ideas stand or fall on their own merits. Outside of certain “fever swamps”, Catholics are extraordinarily tolerant people, really, far more tolerant than they have to be, far more tolerant than they should be.

 

[CelticWarlord]

Why doesn’t God, or the Holy Spirit, lead all hearts that love and seek God towards Catholicism

I can only answer from my own point of view and personal experience. God has opened my heart to Catholicism in a major way, yet I do not feel called to formally become a member of the Roman Church. However, through my interest I have been able to convince many evangelical friends that; 1. what many of us have been taught about Catholicism is simply not true. 2. that the big bad Catholic Church is extremely Christ-centered and no different in that regard than their own denominations. and 3. that Catholics do not worship Mary or the Saints but love them and hold onto the icons and sculptures as one would a loved grandparent or beloved friend.

I have felt, further to this, that my credibility with non-Catholics is strongest because I remain Protestant. If I were to become Catholic I know many would write me off as having been duped and brain-washed. By staying apart from it in a formal way, they are still willing to listen. I feel strongly that that is my call in this matter. Unlike some others, lovely folks I’ve met over the years, I do not feel any sort of yearning for the Sacraments so am content to stay where I am; attending Mass but not seeking any further involvement.

 

[Hume]

Second, when people join one of these megachurches you’re talking about,

WHOA!!! Full stop. Pump brakes.

I’m not talking about megachurches. I’m talking about literally any organization that prioritizes growth.

The cult of personality has a massive effect. I won’t name particulars, but in rock star parishes that are bucking the general Catholic growth trends in the west (decline), they’re led by a salesman.

 

[Hume]

Perhaps you’re referring to “…1 Corinthians 9:19–23)…

Yup! That’s it!

I don’t think it was so much of being “a salesman” as it was about being culturally sensitive when trying to share the gospel. While I don’t disagree it seems sellsman-like, i think it’s just being respectful when you attempt to put yourself in the shoes of another in an attempt to reach them.

Sure, I get that. But what it really amounts to is pitch tactics.

Wanna reach the Jews? Think like a Jew and tailor the message accordingly.

Same with Persians. Gentiles. Whoever.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Why doesn’t God, or the Holy Spirit, lead all hearts that love and seek God towards Catholicism but instead are permitted to die without the truth of our Church revealed to them?

I believe we, the Catholic Church, are the body of Christ. As Christ prayed, suffered, & atoned for the sins of the world, we are called to pray, suffer, & atone for the sins of the world.

Just like the workers called late in the afternoon are paid a full day’s wage, many will enter heaven without being Catholic because of the faithful body of Christ, favored by God.

 

[Seekingthetruth]

Sure, I get that. But what it really amounts to is pitch tactics.

Wanna reach the Jews? Think like a Jew and tailor the message accordingly.

Same with Persians. Gentiles. Whoever.

Ok, I guess I’m just missing the point. Being a good salesman doesn’t make something any less true.

 

[Hume]

That’s very true. But being a good salesman breaks the barriers to acceptance.

As I still thematically like Christianity, particularly the older expressions of it, I do wish they were a bit better at selling it.

Even if god doesn’t exist, people probably need religion.

 

[nearlycatholic]

I believe He does! The failure is on our part. And I don’t mean that judgementally. Think about how people in general treat God and the things of God though.

 

[Seekingthetruth]

Even if god doesn’t exist, people probably need religion.

I would mostly agree with that statement. I believe people are hard wired to believe in “the divine” in some form or another. As that seems to be a reoccurring theme in almost every culture.

 

[Hume]

As I’ve said elsewhere, there are no examples of atheistic aboriginal peoples. Wherever you find folks after the rise of civilization, you also find a religious view that helped bind them together.

 

[Divine3]

Why? I don’t know. Just ask the Holy Spirit that question… And let us know what he says…