Why doesn't baptism make a marked difference?

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Obviously we have to participate with the grace of the sacraments but nevertheless shouldn’t there be a marked difference between a child growing up who has been baptised and a child who has not?

This has not been an experience for me.
Getting back to the OP’s question, I would answer that baptism is an act of faith. We must have faith that the Holy Spirit is at work in the life of the person, child or adult, who is baptized.

Also, IMO, baptism of an infant or child should result primarily in a change in the PARENT or other loving relative or friend who brought that child to be baptized. The parent, godparents, and others who bring the child are pledging to raise the child to love Jesus and His Church, to study the Bible, to partake of the Sacraments at the proper time, to be educated in the Christian school if possible, and most important of all, to demonstrate through their own godly lives the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It sounds to me like you are asking why babies and toddlers and little children still act badly even though they have been baptized. Is that what you are asking? I’m going to respond as if you were asking this.

A baby is not capable of behaving in a certain way. In other words, a baby who cries constantly, or refuses to sleep, or is easily upset, is not doing anything “wrong.” He/she is just being a baby!

I do believe that we should train our children from their youngest age to behave properly, but I think we also need to be realistic and accept the developmental abilities and limitations of a child at any given age, and understand that childish behavior is not “sinful” even if it is terribly frustrating to adults!

E.g., a baby is not going to be able to understand and “obey” us when we tell him to stop crying and go to sleep. A five-year-old IS capable of understanding and obeying the same command, however, we also need to recognize that the five-year-old may have reasons why he/she cannot obey that command (e.g., fear of dark, nightmares, upset stomach, etc.), and we need to seek to learn why he/she is not able to stop crying and go to sleep.

We also have to realize that until the child reaches an age of accountability (around age 7), they really aren’t capable of “sinning.” They are able to demonstrate a “tendency towards sin”; we see this when the 3-year-old looks up at us, grins, and says, “No, Mommy, I won’t do what you tell me.” But that’s just typical 3-year-old behavior, not sin, and we need to guide that 3-year-old into proper behavior. If we do NOT guide the 3-year-old, but just allow him/her to disobey us, we will be training our child to sin, and when he is old enough, he/she WILL sin with impunity, because we haven’t taught him that certain behaviors are wrong.

I hope this is responding to what you are asking.

I was raised Evangelical Protestant, BTW, and we believed that baptism was an outward sign of an inward change. In other words, the baptism did nothing to change us. It was just another act of obedience to one of Jesus’ commands. So I’m not sure I understand what Isaih520 is trying to say. :confused: Even in Evangelical Protestant churches and fellowships, baptism is just another way to demonstrate obedience to Jesus, and it’s actually a rather easy thing to do compared to giving money to missions, becoming a missionary yourself, becoming a pastor or pastor’s wife, helping the poor, visiting the prisoners and the sick, etc. All those things and many others that Jesus commands Christians to do are a lot harder than getting dunked and going to the reception in the Fellowship Hall afterwards!
 
There is a marked difference. A non-baptized child is just a creature of God, a baptized child becomes a child of God.
 
The sacrament of Baptism has two effects: the forgiveness of sins and the gift of sanctifying grace. Neither of these may be markedly visible.

You may be thinking of another kind of grace, called “actual grace” (please note, the word actual in this context means active, as in causing action) or you may be thinking of charisms, which are special graces given to some by the Holy Spirit.

Here is a bit from the Catechism about Baptism:
VII. The Grace of Baptism

1262
The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

For the forgiveness of sins…

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.


“A new creature”

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
  • enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
  • giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
  • allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

And here is a short bit from the Catechism about different kinds of graces. There is more (paragraphs 1996-2005), but I thought I would just give you this part of the summary:
2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

Also note that the word “habitual” in this context does not mean customary, or in the manner of a habit, but rather “inhabiting” (inherent in) the individual.
 
The sacrament of Baptism has two effects: the forgiveness of sins and the gift of sanctifying grace. Neither of these may be markedly visible.


Also note that the word “habitual” in this context does not mean customary, or in the manner of a habit, but rather “inhabiting” (inherent in) the individual.
see the following links to find out more about actual and sanctifying grace.

newadvent.org/summa/2111.htm

catholic.com/quickquestions/can-you-explain-the-difference-among-sanctifying-sacramental-and-actual-grace

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-difference-between-sanctifying-and-actual-grace-do-we-receive-special-gra

catholic.com/quickquestions/are-the-graces-given-at-baptism-or-any-other-sacrament-made-dormant-when-mortal-sin-i
 
It’s interesting thread!

I must say I have always thought baptism should make a difference. I have recently read St Augustine’s Confessions and he really certainly believed the grace of baptism made a visible difference, becoming a “new man” and etc.

By the way, what happened to half the thread? seems to have disappeared?
 
It’s interesting thread!

I must say I have always thought baptism should make a difference. I have recently read St Augustine’s Confessions and he really certainly believed the grace of baptism made a visible difference, becoming a “new man” and etc.
I think you have good questions about Baptism, and what the results are. I believe it can be misunderstood as a “magical” event. Baptism really is the personal and physical touch of God on us. This is His forgiveness personally coming over us. This has an eternal effect because it gives us the grace of forgiveness of sin which caused us seperation from God. It is the general and common means that God uses to wash mankinds sins away by the merits of His Son Jesus. This can all be made unfruitfull by our rejection and disobedience. Also, its effect can be greatly stifled without the instruction and knowledge of the Gospel. We are all made babies in Christ in our Baptism. The milk of a simple Gospel must be fed in order to grow.
By the way, what happened to half the thread? seems to have disappeared?
Yes, that was likely due to the poster who jusmped in with accusations against infant Baptism. Your question wasn’t about wheather or not Scripture instructs infant Baptism, and he jumped in with attacking the Faith.

But if you are interested in the faith behind infant Baptism, you can certainly ask and discuss. That poster’s manner seemed out of line.
 
I think you have good questions about Baptism, and what the results are. I believe it can be misunderstood as a “magical” event. Baptism really is the personal and physical touch of God on us. This is His forgiveness personally coming over us. This has an eternal effect because it gives us the grace of forgiveness of sin which caused us seperation from God. It is the general and common means that God uses to wash mankinds sins away by the merits of His Son Jesus. This can all be made unfruitfull by our rejection and disobedience. Also, its effect can be greatly stifled without the instruction and knowledge of the Gospel. We are all made babies in Christ in our Baptism. The milk of a simple Gospel must be fed in order to grow.
👍
 
most religions catholic or protestant - or AoG- church of Christ – have a water baptism – that is consistant whith – the teaching docturne – that they put their "faith " in

as a catholic – i would have to be dis honest-- to --not recognize – that the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens – because some priest – poured water on me as a child–

historically-- going from the -THE MIKVEH: THE DOCTRINE OF BAPTISM

and the writings of saint paul who said –

1 Corinthians 1:14

I thank God that I did not baptize any of …you
b
I thank God that I didn’t baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius… St. Paul, in his characteristic manner, “goes off at the word” baptize.
baptism - Why was the Apostle Paul seemingly not that …

Jan 20, 2013 - Why was the Apostle Paul seemingly not that interested in baptizing believers? … of Paul?

becase – water baptism – is also the Baptism of “identification” –

this is why – the triad – system is cathoic – the father son holy spirit-

it is the baptism of “Identification”

but how many people get the baptism of the HolySpirit as an adult–??catholic very few

the penecostals have a different view

Brownsville Revival Baptism Service - Pensacola, FL 11/29/1996

youtu.be/gSfoyaQWYIk
 
Obviously we have to participate with the grace of the sacraments but nevertheless shouldn’t there be a marked difference between a child growing up who has been baptised and a child who has not?

This has not been an experience for me.
The difference would be by participation. God may give grace to the unbaptized.

Catechism 847: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
 
Obviously we have to participate with the grace of the sacraments but nevertheless shouldn’t there be a marked difference between a child growing up who has been baptised and a child who has not?
I cannot imagine what difference would be exhibited in day to day life that would distinguish a baptized child.

Baptism opens the door to the sacraments and the life of grace, but it doesn’t change personalities, intellects, or upbringing.

.
 
I cannot imagine what difference would be exhibited in day to day life that would distinguish a baptized child.

Baptism opens the door to the sacraments and the life of grace, but it doesn’t change personalities, intellects, or upbringing.

.
icam
 
Obviously we have to participate with the grace of the sacraments but nevertheless shouldn’t there be a marked difference between a child growing up who has been baptised and a child who has not?

This has not been an experience for me.
We may never know how someone has changed due to the graces of Baptism and the other sacraments. In order to see the difference the sacraments make, we would have to know the person with and without the sacramental effects. And of course that isn’t possible.

All we can say is that the person is probably different growing up by receiving the sacraments and are much better off. Even tho we do know of people who were quite the contrary and had evil lives…Stalin. But this just means they frustrated the sacraments or just ignored them. God can only save those who want to be saved and the sacraments don’t guarantee “once saved always saved” or “once good always good”.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.
 
*. CCC 1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
  • enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues; *
Doesn’t that mean that every baptized has faith in God by the graces given to him in baptism? Why do I have a relative who is baptized yet Atheist? I understand fallen away brothers and sister because of sin and worldly pleasures. Does not mean that they don’t believe in God, they just choose to ignore him. But to go from baptism to complete unbelief! How does that happen if that person’s soul is marked by baptism?

I have been wondering about this for a while. Glad the subject is opened.
 
*. CCC 1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
  • enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues; *
Doesn’t that mean that every baptized has faith in God by the graces given to him in baptism? Why do I have a relative who is baptized yet Atheist? I understand fallen away brothers and sister because of sin and worldly pleasures. Does not mean that they don’t believe in God, they just choose to ignore him. But to go from baptism to complete unbelief! How does that happen if that person’s soul is marked by baptism?

I have been wondering about this for a while. Glad the subject is opened.
the key word being enabling, not dabbling with free will
 
Well, let’s come and say it, this is one of the big questions, isn’t it? You can say, as I have said, why don’t Catholics who receive the Eucharist often seem to be better people? It’s the same question.

Ultimately there are only two answers:

1.The grace is real, and active, but invisible for a reason of its nature.

2.The grace is real, but not active, due to a defect of the person of people you are observing.

For an example of #1, see post #6.

For an example of #2, see post #2.

Often, neither answer is satisfying.
 
*. CCC 1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
  • enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues; *
Doesn’t that mean that every baptized has faith in God by the graces given to him in baptism? Why do I have a relative who is baptized yet Atheist? I understand fallen away brothers and sister because of sin and worldly pleasures. Does not mean that they don’t believe in God, they just choose to ignore him. But to go from baptism to complete unbelief! How does that happen if that person’s soul is marked by baptism?

I have been wondering about this for a while. Glad the subject is opened.
It requires assent at the age of reason to maintain the state of grace.
 
We may never know how someone has changed due to the graces of Baptism and the other sacraments. In order to see the difference the sacraments make, we would have to know the person with and without the sacramental effects. And of course that isn’t possible.

All we can say is that the person is probably different growing up by receiving the sacraments and are much better off. Even tho we do know of people who were quite the contrary and had evil lives…Stalin. But this just means they frustrated the sacraments or just ignored them. God can only save those who want to be saved and the sacraments don’t guarantee “once saved always saved” or “once good always good”.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.
“We may never know how someone has changed due to the graces of Baptism and the other sacraments”

I think that this the most important thought. We can not possibly know the interior growth in another person. We look from the outside and see only a tiny part of what the work of the Holy Spirit working within a person is doing.
 
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