Why doesn't God annihilate the damned?

  • Thread starter Thread starter helgasdogs
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
H

helgasdogs

Guest
Not minding that the concept of a conscious eternity spent suffering in hell contradicts the advertized “eternal life” in heaven that supposedly accompanies salvation, but…

Presuming there is a hell, and people who don’t make the cut are tossed in there to “suffer” (whatever, exactly, that means, but let’s presume it sucks) eternally. My question is,

Why doesn’t God simply annihilate these people? In hell, they’re obviously doing no good to (a) themselves, (b) the people in purgatory, (c) the people in heaven, and (d) God himself. What, then, precisely, is gained by torturing people?
 
Why doesn’t God simply annihilate these people? In hell, they’re obviously doing no good to (a) themselves, (b) the people in purgatory, (c) the people in heaven, and (d) God himself. What, then, precisely, is gained by torturing people?
Click to expand...
Well, if they were simply annihilated…that wouldn’t be much of a punishment!

I mean…having nothingness after death would be great! Better than earthly life, and second-best only to heaven. And no responsibilities or culpability in this life.

Then people would basically be choosing a life of earthly pleasures followed by a sort of self-destroyed “nirvana” or an earthly life of denial followed by eternal bliss. If they were annihilated…then both options would be good.

What is gained by “torturing” them? The Glory of God.

Don’t you see a certain resigned beauty in the anti-beauty of the damned? A certain poetic poignancy in the fact that they got to choose, and chose wrong, but God respected that choice and so they are forever tied up in their own selfishness?

It’s a sort of “let if be” type of thing. They show forth God’s justice and his respect of Free Will. And they show the Saved what could have been if not for the grace of the God. What would God be “saving” them from if not damnation?

It’s like the scene in the Lord of the Rings where Gollum falls into the volcano at the end with the ring. It was…a finality. It was terrible, obviously, but there was something beautiful there, at least in my mind, some grand poignant lesson in spite of his evil. Like the part in the Passion of the Christ where Satan screams from the botton of the pit.

Maybe only I understand what Im talking about…but I can imagine a scene in a movie where a character is standing between a group of bad characters and some good characters in a car…and he chooses ultimately to get into the car while his best friend chooses to stay with the gang. And as the car drives away…he watches his best friend get shot. And happy music starts to play, and the other people say “whoa, dude, are you okay?” and he looks back one last time, and then looks straight foreward and smiles and says, “Yeah…you know what, I’m gonna be fine.” And then the song gets into it’s really happy chorus as they drive off into the sunset. I must sound crazy…but I hope someone can say it better.

Damnation provides all the power and beauty behind Choice. If it wasn’t an option…well…then…free will wouldn’t be as meaningful.
 
helgasdogs said:
…
Presuming there is a hell, and people who don’t make the cut are tossed in there to “suffer” (whatever, exactly, that means, but let’s presume it sucks) eternally. My question is,

Why doesn’t God simply annihilate these people? In hell, they’re obviously doing no good to (a) themselves, (b) the people in purgatory, (c) the people in heaven, and (d) God himself. What, then, precisely, is gained by torturing people?
Click to expand...
Yeah, good question.

Others could answer better than I can, but let me sort of start.

We believe that God made man in His image. That includes different things, but part of it is that we are given a soul that is immortal.

God has always existed, but our soul has not “always existed” so there’s a difference there in the extent of the eternity, but you get what I’m saying I’m sure. If our soul is immortal, then it will go on existing indefinitely, even though in Hell, the people (since they will be reunited with their body) may desire to “not be” but that won’t be an option.
 
Another point…we can understand Hell to be a place where the lost experience less punishment than they rightly deserve. Those in Hell have offended the majesty and goodness of God Almighty. And for that they deserve the worst punishment.

However, since we believe in “degrees of punishment” it seems that God exercises at least some mercy, in that not everybody receives the same “worst” punishment.

And the final judgement is like the goal that’s implicit in creation. God “separated the light from the darkness” in Genesis 1:4. That is a prefigurement of the last judgement when the wheat will be separated from the tares, the sheep from the goats, good from the wicked, etc.

The darkness has a place in God’s whole scheme of things. Likewise, the damned in hell do as well. To show forth His divine justice eternally.

Reward and punishment, because of who we are and as Batteddy pointed out, based on what we choose.
 
As long as we don’t murder somone or something like that, I personally believe that like 95% of us believers are headed to purgatory, with different amounts of time for each of us in there. Some a few seconds, some maybe years… I just find it hard to die in “purest” form and I believe 5% of us are able to achieve this and get the free ticket to heaven.

Please don’t flame me, this is just a personal opinion and I’m trying to get anyone to believe this.
 
Perhaps more for aesthetic reasons than for really any theological basis…I believe it will pretty much be exactly 50-50. Some theologians believed 1/3 would go to hell, another group believed it would be 2/3, a third group believed it would be almost everyone into hell, another group only a tiny amount. I believe it will be pretty much half…though again…this is ALL speculation, and for me, it is really more of an aesthetic choice.

Because then your mother might get to heaven, but your father might not. Three of your brothers might, three might not. Two of you children might get there, two might not. One twin might, the other might not. One* conjoined* twin might, one might not!

Don’t you see a certain poetic poignancy there? A certain wonderful beauty and glory for God? I do.

Remember the story of Lazarus and Dives:
“There was a rich man who dressed in purple garments and fine linen and dined sumptuously each day. And lying at his door was a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who would gladly have eaten his fill of the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. Dogs even used to come and lick his sores. When the poor man died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering torment in these flames.’ Abraham replied, ‘My child, remember that you received what was good during your lifetime while Lazarus likewise received what was bad; but now he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented. Moreover, between us and you a great chasm is established to prevent anyone from crossing who might wish to go from our side to yours or from your side to ours.’ He said, ‘Then I beg you, father, send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they too come to this place of torment.’ But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’ He said, ‘Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’”
Click to expand...
It’s a beautifully poignant story about choice.
 
helgasdogs said:
Why doesn’t God simply annihilate these people? In hell, they’re obviously doing no good to (a) themselves, (b) the people in purgatory, (c) the people in heaven, and (d) God himself. What, then, precisely, is gained by torturing people?
Click to expand...
Apart from the fact that you don’t know that they do no good to or for God (have you asked him lately?) the fact is they certainly do good for me and a lot of us right here on Earth! The thought of being among their number is a powerful incentive (not the only one, of course, but still an important one if we’re honest) to do good and avoid doing evil.
 
helgasdogs said:
Not minding that the concept of a conscious eternity spent suffering in hell contradicts the advertized “eternal life” in heaven that supposedly accompanies salvation, but…

Presuming there is a hell, and people who don’t make the cut are tossed in there to “suffer” (whatever, exactly, that means, but let’s presume it sucks) eternally. My question is,

Why doesn’t God simply annihilate these people? In hell, they’re obviously doing no good to (a) themselves, (b) the people in purgatory, (c) the people in heaven, and (d) God himself. What, then, precisely, is gained by torturing people?
Click to expand...
  1. Please explain the details of your perceived contradiction?
  2. Who says that hell isn’t about the annihilation of the soul? Please demonstrate that you have knowledge of the Catholic teachings regarding hell.
My guess is that you will fail at both tasks, if you even make an attempt to tackle them at all. You clearly have an ax to grind as shown by several other posts you’ve made here. At least have a basic understanding of the doctrines you seek to criticize.
 
njguy58 said:
As long as we don’t murder somone or something like that, I personally believe that like 95% of us believers are headed to purgatory, with different amounts of time for each of us in there. Some a few seconds, some maybe years… I just find it hard to die in “purest” form and I believe 5% of us are able to achieve this and get the free ticket to heaven.

Please don’t flame me, this is just a personal opinion and I’m trying to get anyone to believe this.
Click to expand...
There is no basis for your opinion.

It is clear that if you die in a state of grace you are saved (either direct to heaven or more likely via purgatory) but if you die in a state of mortal sin you are condemned and go to hell for eternity.
 
I personally don’t see how anyone who sincerely does not want to go to Hell would go there. Some of you with your opinions probably really scare people and I think you are wrong to do so. I just don’t see how a all loving and just God could say to someone. "Well…, you believed in me and were good most of your life. Oh, but you are going to Hell since you did a couple of bad things and tough luck for you, but you did not get to confession before you died and therefore are going to spend all eternity in Hell. "

I think Njguy might be right about the vast majority of us spending some time in Puratory. However, I just don’t see how God could send any person who believes and does not want to go to Hell to Hell. The concept just does not make sense. The only person I see going to Hell is the athiest since that would be God’s mercy allowing that person to go to Hell. If a person did not believe in God in life then they get to be right in the afterlife as well sicne they get to spend an eternity without God. Seems fair to me. Other than that, I don’t see how anyone else could be sent to Hell.
 
If it matters, here are my thoughts on the subject–Reformed Rob and others have mentioned some of this:

First off: God is infinitely Just – so don’t worry about the details – he will work them out 🙂 Everybody will get exactly what is deserved both good and bad (may He have mercy on me and all of us.)

Second: being made in God’s image means we have this aspect of ourselves that is eternal: our soul (which is all of our selves and more). This has been done and God will not take this away from us, because it is – eternal. And that’s just the way things are: eternally good for some, bad for those who have chosen so.

Therefore, those who end up in Hell forever do so because they did not choose God, so to speak, they did not ask for his Mercy or forgiveness, they were unrepentant and spend eternity separated from God. This separation ends up being eternal punishment i.e. Hell. What exactly that is has been alluded to but I think part of the punishment is the utter and eternal despair that will come with the realization that, “Hey, I really REALLY messed up…and this is going to be really REALLY bad…FOREVER.” Then comes that internal burning you get in the pit of your stomach when you are suddenly really afraid and alone and in despair.

God measures all things, or whover executes judgement will. Some may have never had the real, true opportunity to choose God or Christ, but those who had an authentic opportunity and rejected God and Christ are, well, left without Him and all that He is: merciful, life-giving, glorious etc.

I really hope they reconsider before it is too late.
 
wjp984 said:
I personally don’t see how anyone who sincerely does not want to go to Hell would go there. Some of you with your opinions probably really scare people and I think you are wrong to do so. I just don’t see how a all loving and just God could say to someone. "Well…, you believed in me and were good most of your life. Oh, but you are going to Hell since you did a couple of bad things and tough luck for you, but you did not get to confession before you died and therefore are going to spend all eternity in Hell. "

I think Njguy might be right about the vast majority of us spending some time in Puratory. However, I just don’t see how God could send any person who believes and does not want to go to Hell to Hell. The concept just does not make sense. The only person I see going to Hell is the athiest since that would be God’s mercy allowing that person to go to Hell. If a person did not believe in God in life then they get to be right in the afterlife as well sicne they get to spend an eternity without God. Seems fair to me. Other than that, I don’t see how anyone else could be sent to Hell.
Click to expand...
Jesus said ‘strait is the way and narrow the path that leads to life’. Not to mention telling the story of the foolish virgins who, for just at the last minute going to get oil for their lamps were shut out of the party by the bridgroom.

This doesn’t give the idea that most of us will end up in heaven or that long enough being good is good enough. We must persevere right to the very end.
 
helgasdogs said:
Not minding that the concept of a conscious eternity spent suffering in hell contradicts the advertized “eternal life” in heaven that supposedly accompanies salvation, but…

Presuming there is a hell, and people who don’t make the cut are tossed in there to “suffer” (whatever, exactly, that means, but let’s presume it sucks) eternally. My question is,

Why doesn’t God simply annihilate these people? In hell, they’re obviously doing no good to (a) themselves, (b) the people in purgatory, (c) the people in heaven, and (d) God himself. What, then, precisely, is gained by torturing people?
Click to expand...
Nothing is gained as we in no way can add or subtract from God. However, justice is served. The further question to this would be something about how going to hell for missing mass seems harsh … or viewing a single image or pornography with an otherwise just life. However, this misses the point about sin. Sin is the radical choice against God. While it has an effect on the individuals who are the object of ones sin and it has an affect on the self we tend to forget that the person to whom the sin is against is God Himself. Each sin against God carries with it an infinite quality as the gravity of sin is proportionate to the formal or material object of the sin. Thus, each sin carries an infinite quality when applied to God. Now, because of this it is a just punishment to spend hell for eternity for a single mortal transgression.

For those who think that hell is either fictional or that none or few will go to hell I would suggest that such an opinion is not formed out of any knowledge of Scripture. Christ Himself mentions Hell and the consequence of it more than all the other times it is is mentioned in the Bible combined. Further it lacks an understanding of basic Catholic Doctrine and it also lacks any substance in reason but is rather an emotionally formed opinion from silence that has no weight as a credible opinion.
 
LilyM said:
Apart from the fact that you don’t know that they do no good to or for God (have you asked him lately?) the fact is they certainly do good for me and a lot of us right here on Earth! The thought of being among their number is a powerful incentive (not the only one, of course, but still an important one if we’re honest) to do good and avoid doing evil.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry, he doesn’t return my calls. (Hey, you asked - she asked, Mods!)

And your second sentence is just risible in its caricature of atheism. Find me any stat anywhere proving that atheists have a higher crime rate than anyone else, or that atheists are less considerate of others, or give less to charity, or are more dismissive of reality because they don’t believe that some monstrous egoist in the sky will burn them alive when they die for the “beauty” of it.
 
40.png
helgasdogs:
Find me any stat anywhere proving that atheists have a higher crime rate than anyone else, or that atheists are less considerate of others, or give less to charity, or are more dismissive of reality because they don’t believe that some monstrous egoist in the sky will burn them alive when they die for the “beauty” of it.
Click to expand...
It’s anecdotal, but I recall one who was so detached from reality that they mistook hoofprints for demonic tracks. 🙂
 
Hey, you started it by claiming to know that those in hell do no good for or to God (helgasdogs started it, mods!)

By the way, I wasn’t saying or implying that theists do more good than atheists. I was merely saying that for a lot of theists the fear of hell gives them a motive (among many possible motives) to do good that resonates with them.
 
Helga’s Dogs,

Quite possibly it is because we are made of tough enough material that we don’t just get destroyed that easily. More definite than that I will have to refer you to a higher authority.
  • Liberian
 
What can you think of that God has annihilated? God is Love. Love is creative not destructive. To annihilate would be inconsistent with what it is to be God.
 
njguy58 said:
As long as we don’t murder somone or something like that, I personally believe that like 95% of us believers are headed to purgatory, with different amounts of time for each of us in there. Some a few seconds, some maybe years… I just find it hard to die in “purest” form and I believe 5% of us are able to achieve this and get the free ticket to heaven.

Please don’t flame me, this is just a personal opinion and I’m trying to get anyone to believe this.
Click to expand...
I hope you’re right. I really, really don’t want people going to hell. I really want people to repent and all of us go to heaven.
 
Well…it’s the biggest gamble of hope and faith we all make…we all hope we are good enough to escape Hell…and good enough to make it into Heaven…or hope there there IS a heaven and NOT a Hell…but no one knows one way or t’other with any certainty–only that we ALL will find out someday…

My take on Hell is that IF it exists…it reflects that which you have chosen in life…that being to have rejected and removed yourself from God by operationof your own free will. I’m not talking about the mere failure to profess a creed, make prayerful incantations to saints, know the definions of sins–venial or mortal–and avoid them, or die with an unconfessed act of (deliberate) Friday meat-eating upon your soul…etc., but to have lived life in a way that rejects charity, love, compassion, forgiveness. If those are the seeds you have sewn, what you reap is an eternity spent separated from God. That would be a torture because the prevailing power is then evil. You do not need to be hoisted onto a spit and grilled until medium rare to suffer–the spiritual despair of being spearated from goodness would be far more painful than any consuming flames.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top